[akkando]

Originally Posted by rich8566

I have zero interest in a non manual transmission car from BMW. I will keep what I have before I'd settle for a DCT or a slushbox. No offense, but I don't buy cars for simple transportation needs.

That's why I asked will you just no longer buy cars? Could maybe get your pilots license and fly planes instead?

[Spa2k]

There have been some automotive industry reports that manufacturers are reaching the power limits that both manuals and DCTs can handle, and that a more carefully computer-controlled regular automatic transmission will be the only choice for high-horsepower cars of the future. It goes beyond cost and the physical size of the transmission necessary - the manufacturers say they can't make a manual or a DCT last long enough to fulfill warranty requirements.

[M2LA]

Originally Posted by pissclams

Because people don't buy manual transmission vehicles.
Less than 5% of vehicles sold are MT. Believe it or not, the MT enthusiasts on this message board make up a very small sliver of the car buying public. Couple that with the fact that almost every measurable would dictate that DCTs are better than MT- emissions, gas mileage, shift time, they all favor the DCT and you have your answer.

5% sold where? in the US its probably even less but worldwide I find the # hard to believe. I go to europe as often as I can and never have trouble finding a mt. its just recent years that rental companies gave an auto option online, it was just assumed a mt would always be in the car. all this aside the only reason I got an M2 was that audi stopped bringing them in after my 30 years of owning one as a daily driver. no mt on a bmw = a newer 911 for me and I would probably pick up something electric for when I needed something with storage. these days the best anti theft one can get is a mt, nobody is learning how to drive them. shame but I guess time marches on. enjoy the things in life that you have because you never know..

[stefan]

Originally Posted by 823BMW

If the M2 offered no manual transmission, I would not have even looked at it. Even though the take rate is small for manuals overall, the manual only Focus RS, Civic Type R, and Cayman GT-4 show there is still a niche left.

Would have gone with an RS3 if it weren't for the 6mt

[RBNetEngr]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

Why is management so hellbent on killing the manual? Does it eat into profits that much?

It may have something to do with the automotive industry's march toward autonomous cars. They have slowly been working on the components of it since the early 2000s (or maybe earlier). Drive by wire throttle. Electric Steering. Computerized braking systems. Centralized diagnostics. Object detection (front/rear/side). Various vision systems. Real time telemetry. Auto Start/Stop. One by one they have put these individual systems into vehicles and had vehicle owners drive them and find the problems so the bugs could be worked out.

The only thing that throws a wrench into the autonomous car spokes is a manual transmission. So they want to convince us that DCT is just as good (or better), or that the current generation of automatic transmissions is just as good.

My 2¢

-rb

[McPurrs]

While I wanted a manual and took delivery of one, the 2900 or whatever cost of the DCT made me laugh. If they want to phase out manuals, stop charging for DCT. If it were the same price, I'm not sure what I would have picked. Probably still the manual but I would have thought about it more and not laughed like I did.

[M///Fanatic]

I just turned 30 this year and if the M2 wasn't manual I would have kept my e46 M3 or bought a newer one that was mint.

I love technology and some of the features in new BMW's but what I love more is feeling connected to my car in a way I've only felt with MT. Not to say other cars don't provide that feeling but I knew I needed to get an M2, as it may be the last BMW that pleases the fanatics from 15+ years ago and today.

Regardless of your own choice, I hope the MT will remain in harmony with other vehicles of the future.

[PGHM2]

?It?s a disgrace,? said driving enthusiast and Kelley Blue Book senior analyst Karl Brauer. ?Yes, it?s more troublesome and expensive for the automakers. But it?s completely inexcusable that Ferrari doesn't even offer a manual.?

^ This. Everything about this. That's the reason auto manufacturers don't offer manuals anymore.

If you read the article below, you can see why the industry is shifting away from MT. People aren't buying them, but maybe they should. And BMW currently offers 14 models in MT.

Article Below:


https://www.google.com/amp/www.latim...story,amp.html

[M2taz]

I think M2 DCT sales are partially as high as they are because that's all dealers order by default. Just by looking at some of the response will show this. Porsche is bringing back manuals for a reason, there's demand for them. Add me to the list of people who wouldn't have considered the M2 if there weren't a manual option, it was number two on my requirements for this purchase. A rear sear was number one actually since I have kids, as a reference.

[ModestV8]

I thought it was advantageous for BMW to offer MT since Audi and MB doesn't. They have the MT for that luxury sports car market all to themselves. (Until they go up to Porsche). Hope they keep making it for a little while at least...

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

There have been some automotive industry reports that manufacturers are reaching the power limits that both manuals and DCTs can handle, and that a more carefully computer-controlled regular automatic transmission will be the only choice for high-horsepower cars of the future. It goes beyond cost and the physical size of the transmission necessary - the manufacturers say they can't make a manual or a DCT last long enough to fulfill warranty requirements.

Pretty bullshit reason if you ask me...

The 997 GT2 RS develops 620 PS/456 kW and 700 N·m/516 lb·ft of torque and still be offered with a manual with full warranty.

That car was engineered for regular track work which means regular full power clutch dumping.

The engineering limitation excuse from bean counters is pretty lame but they spill it out in hope of people will buy it.

[ZPrime]

A lot of it is safety-system related. Subaru doesn't offer their Eyesight package on a MT-equipped car, as an example.

I'm not exactly sure why they can't just put in a hydraulic actuator that opens the clutch and holds it there in the event of the safety systems having to intervene... except something like this would have to be engineered, developed, produced, and tested, all of which costs money.

[seis-speed]

Originally Posted by akkando

What are all you MT guys going to do when they don't make the MT anymore? Just no longer buy cars?

I will just buy a 4Runner or something like that. I would not buy a sports car w/o a manual transmission.

The first thing I look at when looking for a car - is a manual transmission an option? i was excited for the New RS cars from Audi, but as soon as I found out they don't have a manual I dismissed any interest. For now BMW has my business. We will see on the next generation of M's.

[Corinne]

We all agree that a DCT can shift gears faster and therefore has better acceleration times. However I'm wondering whether BMW and other manufacturers are deliberately fiddling the fuel consumption figures so as to make DCT appear better... so as to push people into buying DCT in the hope of deleting MT from the range in a year or two. I'm talking here about the final drive ratio of the highest gear, which, unless I'm mistaken, has the greatest effect on fuel consumption. The top gear on MT is higher than that of the DCT, which means the engine is turning over faster at any given cruise speed on the highway. I know DCT has more gears but why on earth not have a longer top gear on MT ? It's not as if 6th gear is going to be used on the race track. And you don't exactly need it on country roads either. Matching top gear ratios would most probably result in similar fuel consumption between DCT and MT... assuming the driver is not someone who doesn't know when to change gear by himself. Existing M2 owners are already finding negligible difference in fuel consumption between comfort and sport modes so could it be that these latter are just there to camouflage the issue ?

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by Corinne

We all agree that a DCT can shift gears faster and therefore has better acceleration times. However I'm wondering whether BMW and other manufacturers are deliberately fiddling the fuel consumption figures so as to make DCT appear better... so as to push people into buying DCT in the hope of deleting MT from the range in a year or two. I'm talking here about the final drive ratio of the highest gear, which, unless I'm mistaken, has the greatest effect on fuel consumption. The top gear on MT is higher than that of the DCT, which means the engine is turning over faster at any given cruise speed on the highway. I know DCT has more gears but why on earth not have a longer top gear on MT ? It's not as if 6th gear is going to be used on the race track. And you don't exactly need it on country roads either. Matching top gear ratios would most probably result in similar fuel consumption between DCT and MT... assuming the driver is not someone who doesn't know when to change gear by himself. Existing M2 owners are already finding negligible difference in fuel consumption between comfort and sport modes so could it be that these latter are just there to camouflage the issue ?

I did notice that my 135i ran about 2500rpm at 120 kph, and my M2 does around 3000 rpm at that speed. No doubt it is keeping my M2 from better mileage than my old 135i. But not sure it was the motivation... it is just not designed as a highway cruiser.

I think hybrid technology and automated driving tech will kill the MT. Neither is compatible with with the manual and both are growing. Even supercars are going hybrid.

[hshot_rooke]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

There have been some automotive industry reports that manufacturers are reaching the power limits that both manuals and DCTs can handle, and that a more carefully computer-controlled regular automatic transmission will be the only choice for high-horsepower cars of the future. It goes beyond cost and the physical size of the transmission necessary - the manufacturers say they can't make a manual or a DCT last long enough to fulfill warranty requirements.

From what I've read, this is one of the reasons that Audi chose to offer only automatic transmission on the S5.

You can still get the A5 with a 6-speed, but it's for the less powerful engine.

[omasou]

Maybe manufacturers are tired of eating warranty claims (for customer good will) for people that think they know how to drive a MT?

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

Pretty bullshit reason if you ask me...The engineering limitation excuse from bean counters is pretty lame but they spill it out in hope of people will buy it.

Of course, a company like Porsche with seemingly unlimited resources (and customers with deep pockets) can afford whatever they want. But like it or not, engineering, durability, performance and some amount of cost effectiveness are the reasons manufacturers like Ferrari, GM, Audi and Ford won't use DCTs - or in some cases, manuals - in the future. Even the new Audi A3 uses an automatic instead of a DCT because it works better for launch, acceleration and economy.

[M2BSM17]

Originally Posted by McPurrs

While I wanted a manual and took delivery of one, the 2900 or whatever cost of the DCT made me laugh. If they want to phase out manuals, stop charging for DCT. If it were the same price, I'm not sure what I would have picked. Probably still the manual but I would have thought about it more and not laughed like I did.

I got the same survey on Saturday and found it very interesting. One of the questions I got was "would you pay more for the option of buying a manual transmission?". I said no.. or disagree, or whatever the appropriate thing was. I hope they don't try to kill the manual by charging more for it! I agree that if the M2 wasn't offered in manual, I wouldn't have purchased it.

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Of course, a company like Porsche with seemingly unlimited resources (and customers with deep pockets) can afford whatever they want. But like it or not, engineering, durability, performance and some amount of cost effectiveness are the reasons manufacturers like Ferrari, GM, Audi and Ford won't DCTs - or in some cases, manuals - in the future. Even the new Audi A3 uses an automatic instead of a DCT because it works better for launch, acceleration and economy.

Porsche with unlimited resource? Where on earth did you get that?

BMW sell way more M2/M3/M4s than the 911 variants...they can easily recoup the R&D cost for the 6MT than Porsche. Also only the GT cars get the 6MT, the normal vanilla 911s get the not so fun 7MT. DCTs by themselves are actually more expensive to engineer and manufacture than manuals. They are more expensive for BMW to repair under warranty than manuals as the whole gearbox has to be replaced, However on a larger scale when one factor into emission criteria and potential penalties then the favour tilt towards DCTs or autos.

Aston Martin still offers manual. Porsche now offers manual again in their GT cars. Technical limitation is not the reason. The reason is they want to achieve a higher return on equity figure on each platform so everyone up top get a fatter bonus at the end.

[blackholescion]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

A lot of it is safety-system related. Subaru doesn't offer their Eyesight package on a MT-equipped car, as an example.

I'm not exactly sure why they can't just put in a hydraulic actuator that opens the clutch and holds it there in the event of the safety systems having to intervene... except something like this would have to be engineered, developed, produced, and tested, all of which costs money.

Probably for the same reason it's not advisable to put the car in neutral at 70 MPH and coast/brake to a stop: loss of control over the vehicle (other than steering and brakes, obviously). If you need to accelerate or do something other than brake, you're rightfully fucked.

[Spa2k]

Until you get into the outer edges of the universe, Porsche has a higher margin per vehicle than any other manufacturer, and it obviously spends its R&D money where its customers will pay for it. That makes sense, but it doesn't work for most manufacturers.

OTOH, for "lesser" manufacturers like Ford, a single manual transmission was the only choice for the GT 350, considering who the buyers are and what they'll do with their vehicles. When I was at a pre-release track event for the GT 350, someone asked one of the Ford engineers about the possibility of a DCT or automatic. He said that they had looked into it but found so little demand that they quit actively working on it. He also said anything but a manual would be very expensive, even in a large enough quantity to justify the expense. And for Corvette buyers, a small but very loud minority (plus a manufacturer that doesn't want to lose its credibility as a sports car seller), keeps the manual on the order form.

So, I guess the bottom line is manufacturers are only going to offer what works for them on the bottom line, and a 5 or 10 percent take rate on a manual transmission won't make the cut.