[shivaswrath]

Lol you should've driven the 2012 electric steering, now that was bad.

They've come along way with the feeling, it's not a GT3, but it's damn good.

[Wichard20]

Originally Posted by Cripple

Maybe before you blatantly lie over car forums about cars you don't own, you should get your facts straight.

"Your" 991 GT3 does not have electronic steering.

not sure if you are serious as the 991 GT3 does have electronic steering

[gtr]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Mitsu EVO has PHENOMENAL steering. Awesome feel and incredible turn in.

Did you ever drive the main competitor in the STI, slow, cumbersome, and uninvolving in comparison. I would have probably bought an STI at one point but driving an EVO made me rethink that seriously. Finally I ditched the idea of all wheel drive together ...

I just bought a final edition due to my love towards Evos overall steering feel. For steering feel cars from past cars and current cars I like.

Hydraulic favorites
987 Spyder/Cayman R
997 GT3RS
Evolution 8,9,10
E46 bimmers

Electrical favorites
Fiesta ST
FRS/BRZ
GT4 and all 981
Porsche 991's

CUV/SUV
Q5
Macan

[nlpamg]

Originally Posted by Cripple

Maybe before you blatantly lie over car forums about cars you don't own, you should get your facts straight.

"Your" 991 GT3 does not have electronic steering.

I'm off the forum for a little bit and I see this.

HAHAHAHAHA, really!? You're funny. I love how you try to call me out, yet you don't even know your facts. Like someone else already told you, the 991 GT3 DOES indeed have electronic steering.

Blatantly lie? Sure, buddy. I know a number of Bimmerpost members outside of the forum and have been to a number of meets. You can ask around and even search for "nlpamg" in Google...

Buuuuuut, if you want something on Bimmerpost, oh look, I was at this meet and there's a picture of me driving away in MY GT3: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1116165

In case you're too dense, here's the picture:


Before you go calling people out because you're butthurt that they insulted your car, perhaps you should get your facts straight.

[Aloha Joe]

OP, steering feel is the only area that concerns me with the M2. I was fortunate enough to drive a M235 hard and while I differ somewhat with you, I didn't think it was great but I wouldn't say it was "atrocious". However it is an aspect of the car where my current Z is better.

The problem I'm going to have is, the Honolulu dealer won't have any demos to test. It was impossible to get a M235 demo (got lucky and drove another owners car), so M3/M4 forget about that demo. Hopefully I'll meet an M3/4 owner willing to let me take a test drive.

[Blue55]

Originally Posted by nlpamg

In case you're too dense, here's the picture:


Before you go calling people out because you're butthurt that they insulted your car, perhaps you should get your facts straight.

Get your facts straight. All 991s have electric steering. Common knowledge really. I know nlpamg. We race together in a couple of cars we co-own with a team. He does in fact have a white GT3. I've sat with him on track in it.

[chambolle]

Originally Posted by Bmwhocr

Sometimes its hard to find that perfect combination of everything you want in the used market. Buying new is always easier but you have to pay to play. Everyone has their own reasons.

Yes, I have my reasons. I've babied my E36 M3 since it was delivered to me the first week of December 1994. It remains a great car and probably will continue to keep on ticking for another 20. But it's time to soak up that new car smell and absorb what Bavarian auto technology hath wrought in the past 20 years. Besides, any day now the 6 speed manual will go the way of the dodo and I need to get my last licks in before they stop coming off the assembly line.

If I find a really nice E46 M3 in Alpine White, I can park the Hellrot E36, the white E46 and the LBB M2 side by side and make my own big French flag.

[Mtnviper]

Is the new M2 the spiritual successor to the E30 M3?

Reference points: 83 urQuattro, 88 E30 M3, 02 Subaru WRX (Group N rally spec), 08 Mazda3, 12 Mazda3

Sadly, this is just BMW marketing hype. In terms of driver feel and feedback, in terms of a visceral connection with the machine, The M2 will feel more like a 2016 Hyundai Sonata than an E30 M3. So much has changed: 700 lb weight gain, electronic steering, nanny rev matching, turbos, synthesized engine sound, isolation.

The strength of the M3 was that BMW didn't filter out the vibrations (information) that contribute to the joy of driving. All the cockpit controls in my E30 vibrate with a reassuring light buzz of rich high frequency vibrations. It was a crowning achievement of the era of analog BMWs.

The E30 M3 wasn't perfect. The S14 sounded glorious (without a synthesizer), but it was coarse and buzzy by today's standards. Acceleration? Is any modern BMW in the 7 second 0-60 range? The steering is very slow (19.5:1) but at least it has the informative buzz, unlike current BMW EPS systems. (I saw recently that Porsche's electronic steering filters everything above 15hz! Cars have gone from tactile reference steering (by feel) to visual reference steering.)

The sad truth is that if you want a late model car that FEELS like an E30 M3, it will not be a BMW, Audi, VW or a Porsche. Ironically, the feel of the E30 M3, a moderately quick, well balanced, 2800 lb car that was tuned to sing loudly to the driver, survives in a $20K Mazda3. Especially a generation or two back. Mazda, the "horse and rider as one" folks, have not forgotten the song.

Not what you wanted to hear, I suppose. Buy an M2 and enjoy it, but don't delude yourself that it has much to do with an E30 M3.

[OG///M]

Originally Posted by Mtnviper

Is the new M2 the spiritual successor to the E30 M3?

Reference points: 83 urQuattro, 88 E30 M3, 02 Subaru WRX (Group N rally spec), 08 Mazda3, 12 Mazda3

Sadly, this is just BMW marketing hype. In terms of driver feel and feedback, in terms of a visceral connection with the machine, The M2 will feel more like a 2016 Hyundai Sonata than an E30 M3. So much has changed: 700 lb weight gain, electronic steering, nanny rev matching, turbos, synthesized engine sound, isolation.

The strength of the M3 was that BMW didn't filter out the vibrations (information) that contribute to the joy of driving. All the cockpit controls in my E30 vibrate with a reassuring light buzz of rich high frequency vibrations. It was a crowning achievement of the era of analog BMWs.

The E30 M3 wasn't perfect. The S14 sounded glorious (without a synthesizer), but it was coarse and buzzy by today's standards. Acceleration? Is any modern BMW in the 7 second 0-60 range? The steering is very slow (19.5:1) but at least it has the informative buzz, unlike current BMW EPS systems. (I saw recently that Porsche's electronic steering filters everything above 15hz! Cars have gone from tactile reference steering (by feel) to visual reference steering.)

The sad truth is that if you want a late model car that FEELS like an E30 M3, it will not be a BMW, Audi, VW or a Porsche. Ironically, the feel of the E30 M3, a moderately quick, well balanced, 2800 lb car that was tuned to sing loudly to the driver, survives in a $20K Mazda3. Especially a generation or two back. Mazda, the "horse and rider as one" folks, have not forgotten the song.

Not what you wanted to hear, I suppose. Buy an M2 and enjoy it, but don't delude yourself that it has much to do with an E30 M3.

WOW.... registered just to post to make sure you solidify in YOUR mind that YOUR E30 is the best M car ever... what a great way to start a Monday.

I wonder who are you trying to convince?

IEDEI you have competition.

[Mtnviper]

Originally Posted by Francis///M

WOW.... registered just to post to make sure you solidify in YOUR mind that YOUR E30 is the best M car ever... what a great way to start a Monday.

I wonder who are you trying to convince?

IEDEI you have competition.

I did not say the E30 was the "best" M3. I even pointed out its faults. I even buried my opinions in a thread on steering feel. Perhaps a tad defensive about your modern M cars?

Just sharing a lesson learned, and I don't expect this to resonate with many new M fans. The visceral analog road/track driving experience of the E30 is not available in any recent M model. That DNA is gone. You can find it in other cars with nowhere near the reputation or price. Lo and behold, tuning for feedback, which used to distinguish the BMW DNA, doesn't have to be high cost, which makes its absence in the new Ms a missed opportunity for the few (apparently) folks who still enjoy it.

S14 Old Fart

[Big Tuna]

Originally Posted by Mtnviper

I did not say the E30 was the "best" M3. I even pointed out its faults. I even buried my opinions in a thread on steering feel. Perhaps a tad defensive about your modern M cars?

Just sharing a lesson learned, and I don't expect this to resonate with many new M fans. The visceral analog road/track driving experience of the E30 is not available in any recent M model. That DNA is gone. You can find it in other cars with nowhere near the reputation or price. Lo and behold, tuning for feedback, which used to distinguish the BMW DNA, doesn't have to be high cost, which makes its absence in the new Ms a missed opportunity for the few (apparently) folks who still enjoy it.

S14 Old Fart

How did you get access to drive an M2 extensively enough in order to come to such a solidly researched and fact-based conclusion?

[Mtnviper]

Obviously I am extrapolating from the driving experience of other new M cars in which there is an order of magnitude less feedback (informative NVH) than in the 1980s cars. I hope the M2 reverses the trend. Somehow I doubt BMW is reintroducing informative NVH in today's market. You know they want you to think it harkens back to the E30 legend, right?

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Well the key thing to keep in mind is that just like a 135 is a big difference from a 1M... the same is true of M235 and the M2. In both situations you are talking about completely different suspension from the lower car.. even though it's the same chassis.

I've driven a 228 and while the steering is ok... it's actually reasonably accurate... it just that it's not that engaging. As fas as the M3/M4.. DO read some reviews... I have seen many reviewers that felt the M3/M4 steering was too artificial on Max settings... both Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson for example.. so you might find yourself disappointed if you just jump in a car and dial up one set of settings..

if you prefer a MINI.. over the current 3 series.. then yes... sounds like you would favor an M2 over an M4.... For most M2 owners This really isn't about value... (an M3/M4 is a better value)... but an M2 will be a simpler machine.. in a much smaller package..


I was really excited about the group event also and wanted to get an M2 but I am very much concerned over the published US curb weight... I also have a slight concern it won't come with manual seats... and items like electric steering (versus the mechanical rack in my 1M) as we'll as having to defeat auto rev match, have me looking at keeping my car at the moment.... Perhaps I can still make the trip by upgrading my daily driver.. SUV..

Honestly the auto rev match isn't bad for daily street driving. It's annoying as hell for track driving but when I'm feeling lazy it's nice to have the feature. At least it can be turned off unlike the porky curb weight

[Mtnviper]

I found this BMW Blog piece which makes the case that the closest modern car to the E30 M3 is the BRZ/FT86. I have never driven one, but the reviews describe lots of feedback/NVH.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2012/01/24/op...r-is-a-toyota/

[dammitcubs]

This will be very interesting. I'm going to test out the M235i on Thursday to get some idea of the size of the car. I hope to try an M3/M4 soon as well.

I'm coming from an EVO X. I have driven it for 6 years so it will be very interesting to compare the two.

I'm hoping for an upgrade on the M2 - sounds like it might be disappointed on that expectation.

[pruettfan]

Every car these days is being made with electric power steering, unfortunately BMW hasn't really figured it out. It is better on the M cars but still not as good as some of the better GM products like the Camaro and CTS-V and ATS-V. This isn't going to keep me from buying the M2 though.

[CosmosMpower]

Originally Posted by dammitcubs

This will be very interesting. I'm going to test out the M235i on Thursday to get some idea of the size of the car. I hope to try an M3/M4 soon as well.

I'm coming from an EVO X. I have driven it for 6 years so it will be very interesting to compare the two.

I'm hoping for an upgrade on the M2 - sounds like it might be disappointed on that expectation.

M235i/M2 will have loads more refinement, way nicer interior, better build quality and depending on how modded your Evo X is, better usable torque down low. It's just a much more 'grown up' car.

[Romo]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Every car these days is being made with electric power steering, unfortunately BMW hasn't really figured it out. It is better on the M cars but still not as good as some of the better GM products like the Camaro and CTS-V and ATS-V. This isn't going to keep me from buying the M2 though.

IMHO Porsche and BMW have the best EPS systems available at this time.

[mlambert890]

I find it really hard to believe that anyone could *honestly* call anything about the M235i "atrocious", but hey... if it weren't for hyperbole and bias fueled opinions (typically coming from those who own the previous generation of the car in question yet come to post anyway) forums would be mostly empty

That said, if you truly find the M235i *that* bad, and somehow end up finding the M4 *so* good, you might want to check your bloodstream for some "/// KOOLAID!!!!" effect.

The difference just isn't *that* dramatic, sorry.

Now someone coming from an NA1 NSX or a 993 911? Sure. I can see them saying "WTF is this?!" But M4 vs M235i? No.

I'll put Porsche in that category as well (991 and 981, not GT3). I just spent about an *hour* testing a '14 981S Boxster. And that was directly on the heels of a final year 997CS.

Jumping from the M235i to the 997 my instinct was "holy shit I forgot what real steering felt like". Jumping into the 981S, I immediately knew I was back with EPS. And honestly, I preferred BMWs setup. The Boxster communicated a bit better, but it was also *too light* for me. At the limits I am sure it is better. But like 99% of forum posters, the "limits" are something I *read* about, but never actually *experience*. Contrary to popular belief you aren't hitting "the limit" sailing around an offramp on 101.

But the real shocker is, I ended up preferring *both* EPS systems to the really heavy feel of the 997. It was interesting because I put some of my longest seat time in 3 generations of NSX (NA1, NA2, NA2 facelift) and I put plenty of time into my Evo X as well (which I would call very good, but IMO more as a part of the overall package of the tech in that car)

Of course if the benchmark is the GT3, all of these cars will pale. OP you also own a CLA45 AMG though. How can you possibly feel *that* car has superior steering in *any* way (feel, weight, precision) to the M235i? I find that really surprising. So all of this said, if somehow that car is ok for you, maybe you will find the M4 AMAZING and the real issue with the M235i is that it's a "fake M".