02-05-2014, 08:29 AM | #309 | |
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02-05-2014, 08:30 AM | #310 | |
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02-05-2014, 08:38 AM | #311 | ||
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Between the engine size reduction and an overall 5% weight savings, you're looking at around 310 lbs of weight loss from a 3,400 lb M235i. Squeezing that extra 90-100 lbs out of a car this size is not going to be easy. Getting under 3,000 lbs would require a massive effort. Doing that and going with an I6 is simply unachievable with the existing F22 chassis. Quote:
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02-05-2014, 08:42 AM | #312 | |
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The original M3 was a homologation car, built in an environment with rules that required BMW to make that road car. That environment doesn't exist any more. Race cars share very little with road cars because of safety concerns and increased pressure for excitement on race tracks. Accessibility has taken a back seat to these factors. It's regrettable, but wishing for things that cannot be only leads to frustration.
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02-05-2014, 09:44 AM | #313 |
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If the M2 had 340 hp to 3100 lbs, that would actually match the e92 M3 power to weight ratio (nevermind the torque to weight)! I know it's more about beating the current competition over beating previous higher end same-brand models, but I find that figure exciting in itself.
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02-05-2014, 10:41 AM | #314 | |
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02-05-2014, 10:49 AM | #315 | |
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Also, consider, BMW is abandoning their old naming convention anyway. What is an M3 anymore? What is an M4? What is an M2? It's all new, heritage doesn't matter anymore, they've thrown that out the window... So if the M4 and M2 are all moving in uncharted waters anyway, then let the M2 be the performance/enthusiast car that is the same powertrain as the M3/4 but in a lighter and smaller package. People who still want the space and size can get the M3 or M4. Again, this isn't about getting something cheaper than an M4 that outperforms. I would pay the same price or more than an M4 for a proper M2. Let the M3/4 be kings of the hill for a couple years, then give us the M2 we should have.
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02-05-2014, 11:46 AM | #316 |
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I thought the m235i already beats the 1m around the ring????
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02-05-2014, 12:19 PM | #317 |
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Link? M235i is down on power and much heavier than the 1M. I would be very surprised if this is true.
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02-05-2014, 12:35 PM | #318 | |
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M235i is Faster on Track Than 1M Coupe(Interview)
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02-05-2014, 01:00 PM | #319 | |
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I found this in regards to the 1M. Times posted between 8:15 - 8:18 http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=782836 http://fastestlaps.com/cars/bmw_1er_m_coupe.html I cant find any posting of official lap times for the M235i.
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02-05-2014, 01:05 PM | #320 |
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How can a car which has 320hp and weighs around 3550 pounds beat a car that has 340hp and weighs 3340 lbs around the Nurburgring?
20 more hp and 200lbs less = slower?? Does not compute?
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02-05-2014, 01:22 PM | #321 | |
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And just to clarify, 1M has 335hp.
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02-05-2014, 01:45 PM | #322 |
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Power and weight are the single biggest factors that determine performance. Yes, you can accomplish a lot with gearing and tires, weight distribution, wheelbase, etc... But at the end of the day, all other things being equal, the car with more power (and more importantly, less weight) will be faster.
Are you suggesting that they ran the 1M with lower-grade tires or a less aggressive gear setup than the M235i? I would think if all other factors are equal, tires, weather, type of fuel, time of day, etc... Also considering that the 1M was designed to be a more performance-oriented model than just a vanilla 135i with M-sport package, which is basically what an "M235i" is. So, I'm still very skeptical that a less powerful, heavier, car is faster.
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02-05-2014, 02:07 PM | #323 |
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The S55, even detuned, would be the best case scenario seeing as naturally aspirated is out the window. There really is no excuse for maintaining the hierarchy of the M2 "enthusiast small sports car" being slower than the yacht sized M3/M4.
The M3/M4 is generally bought by mass market buyers who buy primarily for bragging rights and never drive their cars hard. That's fine so long as they give the true M3 successor (the M2) the ultimate in performance. Yet BMW will most likely deny that to us enthusiasts in order to protect the egos of the primarily luxury and status concerned M3/M4 buyers. This is the same strategy Porsche has used to cripple the Cayman and thus protect the primarily image and ego concerned 911 buyer, and BMW is looking to adopt this strategy full on. Rather choosing to ignore the great success Mercedes and Audi have had by not artificially crippling their lower cars like with the C63 AMG getting the E63 AMG engine, and the RS4/RS5 getting the R8 engine. As far as I am concerned, the modern M3/M4 is now the M5/M6... with the modern M5/M6 being an M7/M8. The M2 is the true M3, not the huge boat they now call such. The M3 is not what it once was: The motorsports upgraded version of the smallest/lightest sedan platform made by BMW. That is no longer the 3 series as it was for so long, but rather now it is the 2-series. Thus the upcoming M2 is the only true successor to the M3 of old... in all but BMW marketing speak. The point about an S20 vs a tuned N55 is very important. Personally I had zero interest in the 1M because it used a cheaply tuned non-M engine. In the M2's case, a tuned N55 would be the same incarnation and thus a dealbreaker for me. A true M-engine S20 would be much more special than a cheaply tuned N55, but would possibly disappoint even more buyers seeing as the 1M sold so well... and the vast majority of buyers don't see a 4-cylinder engine as an acceptable compromise. Honestly, choosing between a cheaply tuned N55 and an S20 is like the South Park episode where they have to choose between a "Giant Douche" and a "Turd Sandwich" wherein the true enthusiasts will be disappointed no matter what the outcome. Doesn't sound like a great recipe for the M2... BMW's true M3 successor now does it? Last edited by HBspeed; 02-05-2014 at 02:13 PM.. |
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02-05-2014, 02:28 PM | #325 | |
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1) The M235i may actually put down the same HP numbers on a dyno as the 1M. BMW's stated M235i torque output is the same as the 1M. BMW's stated HP is a slightly lower figure, but it's possible this isn't 100% true. 2) If the M235i truly is any faster around the ring, I would venture it's because of its higher stability (due to the longer wheelbase), and possibly a better tire/wheel combo (a factor mentioned in the claims). The ring is a notoriously destabilizing track, which gives an advantage to cars with good stability. A car that is reliably stable can carry more speed through the corner than a car with marginally better mechanical grip because of driver confidence and the limits of human reflex.
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02-05-2014, 02:33 PM | #326 | ||||
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Take a look at this Grassroots Motorsports article, where they dropped 3 sec from a 34sec laptime by only basically changing tires and suspension setup. Imagine a longer track, where the advantage would add up to maybe 5+sec. No change in power and negligible changes to weight. I'm not trying to argue with you, only help you see that there is a lot more than just peak power numbers and weight.
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02-05-2014, 02:39 PM | #327 |
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Just for reference, the E86 was 3,200 pounds with 333hp and ran an 8:12 and the 3,100 pound S50B32 E36/8 M Coupe ran it in 8:22 with what I think I recall was 321hp, both with comically less capable tires than the PS2's of the 1M Coupe and the PSS of the M235i. Both earlier M Coupes, especially the Z3 have the aerodynamics of a barn.
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02-05-2014, 03:18 PM | #328 |
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Then why can Porsche and pretty every other manufacturer still do it? The emissions and fuel economy stuff is garbage. BMW just sees a turbo as an easier way to get more power / greater MPG out of an engine.
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02-05-2014, 03:23 PM | #329 |
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At the end of the day we will take the M2 any which way BMW makes it with i4, i6, turbo or non-turbo, etc. why? Because it will be a true M car model with the HP that fits between the M235i and the M4. We can speculate all we want but at this time BMW has already or is near made up their mind on how the M2 will come out, if there is an M2 model to start with... just saying.
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02-05-2014, 03:52 PM | #330 | |
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It is not a false claim to say that emissions and fuel economy standards continue to grow more aggressive. It seems obvious that the days of the high-revving, naturally-aspirated performance engine are behind us. http://flat6news.com/blog/porsche-tu...flat-4-engine/ http://www.carscoops.com/2013/12/por...der-boxer.html
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