[BruceM]

Originally Posted by PiK

Just a heads-up guys. According to one of dealers by installing a custom downpipe you lose the warranty for two components:
1. Exhaust (no big deal).
2. Engine :/

You heard wrong, as other threads on this board over time have discussed--unless the problem with the exhaust or the engine can be shown by the dealer or manufacturer to have been caused by the DP, the warranty must be honored. It's the law. Look up the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The dealer/manufacturer bears the burden of proof. And I'd be very interested to see what sort of evidence could possibly establish that a cracked piston or lifted head gasket or anything else was caused by the use of a 200 cell catted aftermarket DP in place of a 400 cell catted stock DP.

From what I can tell, by the way, the stock DP on an N55 engine is 400 cell. See https://europeanautosource.com/evolu...npipe-n55.html

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by BruceM

From what I can tell, by the way, the stock DP on an N55 engine is 400 cell. See https://europeanautosource.com/evolu...npipe-n55.html

Doesn't make much sense a 400cell alone is responsible for emission compliance of the entire system. Back in E46 days it was 800 cells doing the job if memory serves me correct.

My comparison picture in the OP doesn't look anything like a 400 vs 300. It must be a 600 stock or more, to say the least.

[omasou]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Doesn't make much sense a 400cell alone is responsible for emission compliance of the entire system. Back in E46 days it was 800 cells doing the job if memory serves me correct.

My comparison picture in the OP doesn't look anything like a 400 vs 300. It must be a 600 stock or more, to say the least.

I knew I heard 400 somewhere.

Is the factory cat the entire length of the cylinder? If so we could apply the same points made in bullet 2 of the OP?

The M2 is direct injection plus what 11+ years of other emissions improvements.

[omasou]

I'm still siting on the fence to see if the freer flowing DPs are related to the "Drivetrain notifications" some are getting and if there is a true, even slight performance benefit. Especially, interested in those tracking or auto-crossing vs. enthusiastic drivers.

Since BMW said their are no gains from the freer flowing MPE. For me, I'm not sure if the "sound" is worth the trouble...

There will be no power gains with an axle-back exhaust because the turbocharged engine will compensate to create the same amount of torque. It would be different with a naturally-aspirated engine, but not with the turbocharged engine.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/11/05/in...ormance-parts/


Though BMW also said, which is consistent with posts I have seen...

The result is faster engine response as well as noticeably improved acceleration across the entire engine speed range, enabling a 0-60 mph sprint 0.2 seconds quicker than stock.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...=m+performance

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by omasou

I'm still siting on the fence to see if the freer flowing DPs are related to the "Drivetrain notifications" some are getting and if there is a true, even slight performance benefit. Especially, interested in those tracking or auto-crossing vs. enthusiastic drivers.

Since BMW said their are no gains from the freer flowing MPE. For me, I'm not sure if the "sound" is worth the trouble...

There will be no power gains with an axle-back exhaust because the turbocharged engine will compensate to create the same amount of torque. It would be different with a naturally-aspirated engine, but not with the turbocharged engine.

http://www.bmwblog.com/2015/11/05/in...ormance-parts/


Though BMW also said, which is consistent with posts I have seen...

The result is faster engine response as well as noticeably improved acceleration across the entire engine speed range, enabling a 0-60 mph sprint 0.2 seconds quicker than stock.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...=m+performance

The 0.2 quicker acceleration figure is related to the Power Kit not the exhaust lol

[PhilL]

Just a note to the OPs original post- I believe the Milltek catted down pipe is basically this unit but branded; certainly it's a 300 cel HJS unit that looks the same, rather than the 200 cel HJS Fabspeed etc.

Just a heads up really especially for fellow UK owners as the Milltek is easier to get over here

[SeanWRT]

Originally Posted by PhilL

Just a note to the OPs original post- I believe the Milltek catted down pipe is basically this unit but branded; certainly it's a 300 cel HJS unit that looks the same, rather than the 200 cel HJS Fabspeed etc.

Just a heads up really especially for fellow UK owners as the Milltek is easier to get over here

I am under the impression euro6 300 cell is HJS in house DP exclusive. All the branded (miltek, supersprint, Fabspeed) DPs use Euro5 200 cell cores.

If you see any of those brands is selling HJS Euro 6 300 cell downpipes, that is most likely the distributing of HJS in house products - to separate from HJS cat being used as core of the downpipes that is fabricated by companies under those brands.

[David1]

Originally Posted by BruceM

You heard wrong, as other threads on this board over time have discussed--unless the problem with the exhaust or the engine can be shown by the dealer or manufacturer to have been caused by the DP, the warranty must be honored. It's the law. Look up the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act. The dealer/manufacturer bears the burden of proof. And I'd be very interested to see what sort of evidence could possibly establish that a cracked piston or lifted head gasket or anything else was caused by the use of a 200 cell catted aftermarket DP in place of a 400 cell catted stock DP.

From what I can tell, by the way, the stock DP on an N55 engine is 400 cell. See https://europeanautosource.com/evolu...npipe-n55.html

The warranty act does not cover modifications which the aftermarket cats are. It is not a carb approved part it is a modification. The act also gives the manufacturers the right to void parts of the warranties if stated in the the owners manuals which it is. If the part meets oem specification then the act would apply. At the end of the day any modification to any emissions control device including flashing the ecu is not compliant. Just ask all the Audi RS guys that have no warranty as soon as rhe dealer plugged in for service.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by David1

The warranty act does not cover modifications which the aftermarket cats are. It is not a carb approved part it is a modification. The act also gives the manufacturers the right to void parts of the warranties if stated in the the owners manuals which it is. If the part meets oem specification then the act would apply. At the end of the day any modification to any emissions control device including flashing the ecu is not compliant. Just ask all the Audi RS guys that have no warranty as soon as rhe dealer plugged in for service.

We've gone over this. The Warranty Act does indeed cover modifications in the form of aftermarket parts. Thus, if I switch out a DP (which is what this thread was discussing) and separately have an engine problem, coverage cannot be denied unless the manufacturer or other offeror of the warranty can show that the DP caused the problem. The analysis does not end simply with the identification of a part as aftermarket.

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011...ermarket-parts

And from the FTC itself:

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance

Further, from the second link:

"Simply using an aftermarket or recycled part does not void your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part."

"The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage."

I do not know why this particular myth regarding aftermarket parts continues to have life. The language is quite clear--there is no automatic voiding of warranty simply as a result of using an aftermarket part. If you use an aftermarket part that itself goes bad, of course the warranty won't cover it. But if you use an aftermarket part that is in a chain of parts, and a part downstream goes bad, then the manufacturer has to show that your part caused the problem to deny coverage. So, if you install a catted DP and then crack a piston, the warrantor can't deny coverage on the engine simply because you installed the DP. And good luck to the warrantor in proving that the DP caused the piston to crack.

As for a flash, that gets trickier, but only because causation gets trickier. If I install an aftermarket DP, and my air conditioner fails, good luck denying coverage. But if I flash a car, and the flash raises boost, and I blow a head gasket, then I'm probably out of luck.

I've run into this debate myself on another car. I lowered my Jag XKR with springs. A couple of years later, I get some clunking up front. Spring perches are broken. Dealer denied coverage. I asked them for proof that the aftermarket springs broke the perches. They couldn't explain the mechanism by which this would have happened. We compromised, and I paid a grand for what would have been a $5500 repair.

I got a bit lucky on that one, but they acknowledged their burden of proof. Some dealers flat out deny it, but it's the law.

[SeanWRT]

Hey guys, granted we're all aware of potentially losing warranty in using aftermarket downpipe. The reality is, it's a matter of your relationship with dealer, this can vary from region to region - where I live, we see from time to time blown engine with all powertrain mods bolted on gets covered. Remember it's ultimately BMW, the manufacturer that's bearing the cost of a valid warranty claim, so dealer isn't necessarily working against you, who they may or may not value. Plus, you always have the option of putting back stock downpipe prior to going to dealer for warranty. Anyway, warranty concern isn't really the point of this thread, let's drop it for a little bit please.

[mtoosexy]

Originally Posted by Fabspeed Motorsport

The downpipe between the M235i and the M2 is the same.



Our Sport Cat Downpipe utilizes a HJS, 200-cell cat core as well. This also does not trigger a CEL, and provides all the necessary benefits from a high-flow downpipe. The difference between the 300-cell and the 200-cell is very marginal and in my opinion, not worth the difference in cost.

I'm a noob when it comes to modding...does swapping to a Sport cat Downpipe void any type of warranty? Just curious.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BruceM

We've gone over this. The Warranty Act does indeed cover modifications in the form of aftermarket parts. Thus, if I switch out a DP (which is what this thread was discussing) and separately have an engine problem, coverage cannot be denied unless the manufacturer or other offeror of the warranty can show that the DP caused the problem. The analysis does not end simply with the identification of a part as aftermarket.

https://www.sema.org/sema-enews/2011...ermarket-parts

And from the FTC itself:

https://www.consumer.ftc.gov/article...ne-maintenance

Further, from the second link:

"Simply using an aftermarket or recycled part does not void your warranty. The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act makes it illegal for companies to void your warranty or deny coverage under the warranty simply because you used an aftermarket or recycled part."

"The FTC says the manufacturer or dealer must show that the aftermarket or recycled part caused the need for repairs before denying warranty coverage."

I do not know why this particular myth regarding aftermarket parts continues to have life. The language is quite clear--there is no automatic voiding of warranty simply as a result of using an aftermarket part. If you use an aftermarket part that itself goes bad, of course the warranty won't cover it. But if you use an aftermarket part that is in a chain of parts, and a part downstream goes bad, then the manufacturer has to show that your part caused the problem to deny coverage. So, if you install a catted DP and then crack a piston, the warrantor can't deny coverage on the engine simply because you installed the DP. And good luck to the warrantor in proving that the DP caused the piston to crack.

As for a flash, that gets trickier, but only because causation gets trickier. If I install an aftermarket DP, and my air conditioner fails, good luck denying coverage. But if I flash a car, and the flash raises boost, and I blow a head gasket, then I'm probably out of luck.

I've run into this debate myself on another car. I lowered my Jag XKR with springs. A couple of years later, I get some clunking up front. Spring perches are broken. Dealer denied coverage. I asked them for proof that the aftermarket springs broke the perches. They couldn't explain the mechanism by which this would have happened. We compromised, and I paid a grand for what would have been a $5500 repair.

I got a bit lucky on that one, but they acknowledged their burden of proof. Some dealers flat out deny it, but it's the law.

NO. The MMA is not designed to cover aftermarket part that do not meet OEM specifications. Period. The MMA was implemented so that shadetree mechanics could service their own cars using non-OEM parts that meet OEM specifications. It will not cover parts that change the stock operating parameters of the car and failures that could be linked the installation of those parts.

If you add an aftermarket DP that does meet OEM specifications, BMW could void your warranty because the DP does not meet OEM specifications, changes the operation of the DME, and more importantly, is against the law to modify emissions controls devices like catalytic converters, ECU (thru flashes and piggybacks), emissions sensors (i.e., relocating O2 sensors), etc. Since things like DPs and ECU flashes and piggybacks manipulate and change the operation of the DME, which is outside of BMW's designed parameters, BMW can easily say that the DP you installed caused "X" part to fail inside the motor thus you're responsible and warranty coverage denied. It would be on YOU to prove the failure was not caused by the aftermarket part. You might be able to arbitrate it, but that would take a lot of time and chances are nil that you win. Same goes for pursuing legal action. BMW has a lot of lawyers and they can tie things up for quite some time. The chances of winning are low as well. The burden of proof is on you and the first thing that they would argue is that the MMA is not applicable in the case, which would be true. I strongly suggest that you reread the act and better understand it's intent.

You are correct that BMW cannot deny warranty coverage on unrelated failures such as an A/C failing and the car has a DP. With that said, they could get pretty crafty and claim that a leaking half-shaft boot was the result of the added power from a piggyback. We both know it's BS, but BMW could simply claim that the elevated power levels are outside the design limits of the drivetrain thus go pound sand.

In the end, if you choose to modify your car with performance enhancing parts that increase power, expect BMW to deny warranty coverage on the powertrain in the event something fails and consider it a win and sheer luck if they don't or goodwill the repair.

[David1]

Correct on how it works. I have been through the courts with this with a modified car especially non oem spec and non carb approved mods.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

NO. The MMA is not designed to cover aftermarket part that do not meet OEM specifications. Period. The MMA was implemented so that shadetree mechanics could service their own cars using non-OEM parts that meet OEM specifications. It will not cover parts that change the stock operating parameters of the car and failures that could be linked the installation of those parts.

If you add an aftermarket DP that does meet OEM specifications, BMW could void your warranty because the DP does not meet OEM specifications, changes the operation of the DME, and more importantly, is against the law to modify emissions controls devices like catalytic converters, ECU (thru flashes and piggybacks), emissions sensors (i.e., relocating O2 sensors), etc. Since things like DPs and ECU flashes and piggybacks manipulate and change the operation of the DME, which is outside of BMW's designed parameters, BMW can easily say that the DP you installed caused "X" part to fail inside the motor thus you're responsible and warranty coverage denied. It would be on YOU to prove the failure was not caused by the aftermarket part. You might be able to arbitrate it, but that would take a lot of time and chances are nil that you win. Same goes for pursuing legal action. BMW has a lot of lawyers and they can tie things up for quite some time. The chances of winning are low as well. The burden of proof is on you and the first thing that they would argue is that the MMA is not applicable in the case, which would be true. I strongly suggest that you reread the act and better understand it's intent.

You are correct that BMW cannot deny warranty coverage on unrelated failures such as an A/C failing and the car has a DP. With that said, they could get pretty crafty and claim that a leaking half-shaft boot was the result of the added power from a piggyback. We both know it's BS, but BMW could simply claim that the elevated power levels are outside the design limits of the drivetrain thus go pound sand.

In the end, if you choose to modify your car with performance enhancing parts that increase power, expect BMW to deny warranty coverage on the powertrain in the event something fails and consider it a win and sheer luck if they don't or goodwill the repair.

YES. You first assert that simple use of an aftermarket part that doesn't meet "OEM specs" voids the warranty, then seem to admit that the party attempting to avoid coverage still needs to prove causation, then assert that in that case the burden of proof is on the claimant. That is simply wrong. It is on the party attempting to avoid warranty coverage. It's in the statute, and it's in all the commentary on the statute. There is nothing in the statute that shifts the burden of proof back on to the claimant if the part doesn't meet "OEM spec."

You can speculate, or simply declare, how easy it would be for BMW or other manufacturer to defeat a warranty claim with a non-OEM part in the chain, but that's just what it is--speculation. It all depends on causation. In some cases, it could be tough to win. In others, quite easy. "BMW's lawyers" don't intimidate me in the slightest.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BruceM

YES. You first assert that simple use of an aftermarket part that doesn't meet "OEM specs" voids the warranty, then seem to admit that the party attempting to avoid coverage still needs to prove causation, then assert that in that case the burden of proof is on the claimant. That is simply wrong. It is on the party attempting to avoid warranty coverage. It's in the statute, and it's in all the commentary on the statute. There is nothing in the statute that shifts the burden of proof back on to the claimant if the part doesn't meet "OEM spec."

You can speculate, or simply declare, how easy it would be for BMW or other manufacturer to defeat a warranty claim with a non-OEM part in the chain, but that's just what it is--speculation. It all depends on causation. In some cases, it could be tough to win. In others, quite easy. "BMW's lawyers" don't intimidate me in the slightest.

Good luck with that thinking. You can complain all you want to BMW that you believe they're violating the MMA if they deny warranty work based on aftermarket parts, but YOU will be the one with a broken car and having to spend big bucks on lawyer to prove your case. Do you really believe that you can show BMW the MMA and maybe some "statute" and they'd back off and say "Oh, sorry, you're right". LOL. Their response will most certainly be, "Come at me Bro. We'll see you in court."

You modify a car at your own risk. Pay to play.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Good luck with that thinking. You can complain all you want to BMW that you believe they're violating the MMA if they deny warranty work based on aftermarket parts, but YOU will be the one with a broken car and having to spend big bucks on lawyer to prove your case. Do you really believe that you can show BMW the MMA and maybe some "statute" and they'd back off and say "Oh, sorry, you're right". LOL. Their response will most certainly be, "Come at me Bro. We'll see you in court."

You modify a car at your own risk. Pay to play.

I'm a trial lawyer. I charge very reasonable rates. At least to myself . I am not daunted by the prospect of legal disputes with BMW, or anyone else for that matter.

And what has pissed me off more than most things over my career is defendants who try to use lawyers to make the cost of justice too high to pay. Sometimes, they run into people with whom that doesn't work.

[SM2]

So HjS makes the akra downpipe?

[subliminalaudio]

No cel light?

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by subliminalaudio

No cel light?

No CEL with HJS cats