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      01-26-2014, 05:10 PM   #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IEDEI View Post
Scott----with all due respect....nobody can really change the fact that a boosted 4-cylinder is GOING to have turbo lag....it will still feel like a 4-cylinder, and it's an entirely different experience. No matter how much M try, they can't change the basics of turbo'd 4 cylinders----especially if they are trying to get big power out of it. Sadly a 4-cylinder M2 will be a very interesting car, but nothing out of the ordinary as Merc and Audi are both in the realm of high power 4-cylinders already. BMW is sort of late to the game.....

I'd say Audi is currently the most unique with that 5-pot turbo. That is one hell of an engine.....and from everything i know, Audi is planning to INCREASE the 5-cylinder usage in their lineup. That's properly exciting news for enthusiasts....
I would not say BMW are late to the game. They are planning an exciting return to a four cylinder and they know what they have to accomplish.
Have faith.
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      01-26-2014, 05:26 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by crqflier View Post
Wrong. 1.8t is not transverse on all FWD VWs. Not that it really matters...
Now I'm curious which FWD VW cars had an inline mounted 1.8T?

My point was really that you can make some minor engineering changes and dual-purpose an engine to save costs. I think you knew that though.
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      01-26-2014, 05:34 PM   #245
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Originally Posted by Ramos View Post
With all due respect Scott, BMW is not immune from the laws of physics.

There is only so much that can be done with 2 liters and 4 cylinders. I don't believe in magic. You may be able to produce the power, but you will never produce the drivability, throttle response nor will you ever overcome the hideous turbo lag of said tiny 2 liter engine. Let's not even talk sound ...
I've been blowing the horn on the turbo lag issue in the CLA as much as anyone. I've even used the "laws of physics" argument myself. Having said that, I'm not writing the I4 M2 off just yet. Given the feedback from SCOTT26 in this thread and in others, I think there's a chance BMW might really show some bravery and keep HP numbers sane for the displacement of the engine. If HP is between 300 and 330, I think they could build an engine that responds well. We don't have third party reviews yet, but word from BMW factory drivers is that the S55 doesn't feel like a turbo engine, and that's an engine that was taken from 300 to over 400 HP.

We don't know what BMW has up their sleeve yet, but we do know they've been investing heavily in turbocharger development. Have a look at the 1.5L I3 in the i8.

I'm concerned about the choice to go I4 in the M2. When I first heard it, my head just about popped. I thought there was no way BMW could sell the M2 with an I4 when the M235i has the turbo I6, but now I'm not sure. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm not cutting them any slack on it though. If the character of the engine sucks, I'll take my money elsewhere.
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      01-26-2014, 05:54 PM   #246
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Originally Posted by rca06Mcoupe View Post
I believe there will be an M2, but I don't trust Autoexpress.
How do you think there could be? M235i has 330hp roughly and the M3 has 425hp. Do you really think they could fit a car in that gap without making it a worse purchase than the M235i or a better buy than the M3/4.
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      01-26-2014, 07:34 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
How do you think there could be? M235i has 330hp roughly and the M3 has 425hp. Do you really think they could fit a car in that gap without making it a worse purchase than the M235i or a better buy than the M3/4.
.............................

Intuition and reading M tea leaves since 1999.

There is a market for a 3000 lb. M2. M folks have been asking for such a car for a long time. It will cost more than an M235i but will be worth it to some people. I would not be surprised if it was nearly as quick as M3/4 in a straight line and even quicker on the road courses due to the lightweight. It may pirate some potential M3/4 buyers, but so what. The money goes in the same pockets.

I think an M2 (M2CSL?) would serve research and development purposes in the design of a high powered 4 cylinder, just as they learned a lot developing the high revving s54, etc. I believe (though no one else here does) that this newly developed engine will be shared with the next -gen Z car. Besides being a marketing strategy, the M's are laboratories on wheels - building an M2 will be worth it to them as they can further experiment in the development of lightweight materials, suspension parts, brakes, steering, etc. I think they did just that with the 1M, i.e. as much as they could in the short time frame available. I probably didn't answer your question, but these are my opinions in the "game" of trying to predict BMW's next move.
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      01-26-2014, 08:25 PM   #248
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Guys, would you rather have it turbocharged or just a pure straight 4 cylinder? Keep in mind the pure straight 4 cylinder would probably sound better.
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      01-26-2014, 08:27 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWjourney
Guys, would you rather have it turbocharged or just a pure straight 4 cylinder? Keep in mind the pure straight 4 cylinder would probably sound better.
Dude for real? N/A 4 would be as gutless as an FRS/BRZ
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      01-27-2014, 07:38 AM   #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rca06Mcoupe View Post

.............................

Intuition and reading M tea leaves since 1999.

There is a market for a 3000 lb. M2. M folks have been asking for such a car for a long time. It will cost more than an M235i but will be worth it to some people. I would not be surprised if it was nearly as quick as M3/4 in a straight line and even quicker on the road courses due to the lightweight. It may pirate some potential M3/4 buyers, but so what. The money goes in the same pockets


Sage wisdom right here.
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      01-27-2014, 08:07 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by BMWjourney View Post
Guys, would you rather have it turbocharged or just a pure straight 4 cylinder? Keep in mind the pure straight 4 cylinder would probably sound better.
With emissions and fuel economy requirements, a 2.0L I4 N/A engine wouldn't come close to 300 HP. We'd be fortunate to get the specific output of the S14B25 EVO3 (remember, that engine was 2.5L and Euro only), which would put it around 240 HP. The E30 M3 was a 2800 lb car, and did 0-60 in just over 6s with the baddest S14 they made. The M2 won't be 2800 lbs. We're hopeful for 3000 lbs, but don't be surprised if it's a bit over that. With a 2.0L (or even 2.5L) naturally-aspirated engine, it would be a dog.

I'm all for BMW letting HP take a back seat to handling and road holding, but there are limits to what the market will tolerate. Dropping in a gutless N/A I4 isn't an option. If anything, I think we'd rather see an engine like the S54 make a comeback, but again, that's not happening because of emissions and fuel economy requirements.

Notes on specific output

To back up my claim that there is no level of magic BMW M could use produce a naturally aspirated 2.0L I4 with anything close to 300 HP for the M2, have a look at this list of superlative specific-output engines from 2012. Here's what an M-developed N/A 2.0L I4 looks like at various levels of insane specific-output:

Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0
Ferrari 458 Italia
125 hp/L: 250 HP

Lexus LFA
115 hp/L: 230 HP

Audi RS5
Lamborghini LP570-4 Superleggera
108 hp/L: 216 HP

Some have suggested they could increase the bore or stroke to increase displacement. I disagree that they'll do this, but here's what an M-developed N/A 2.3L I4 looks like at various levels of insane specific-output:

Porsche 911 GT3 RS 4.0
Ferrari 458 Italia
125 hp/L: 288 HP

Lexus LFA
115 hp/L: 265 HP

Audi RS5
Lamborghini LP570-4 Superleggera
108 hp/L: 248 HP

Given that the price point for the M2 will likely come in under the M3/M4, I think it's unrealistic to expect the level of development investment required to reach Porsche or Ferrari levels of output. I believe they could reach some level between the Audi/Lamborghini and the Lexus LFA, but remember that the LFA is no longer produced, and Audi is going all forced-induction across the board because of the emissions and fuel economy requirements that I keep bringing up. An engine developed today must be usable for years to come in order to justify the investment. Like it or not, this is the context in which automobiles are developed.

Hopefully this puts to bed the idea that there is a N/A M-car around the corner. It's simply too far from anything BMW is producing right now.
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      01-27-2014, 09:37 AM   #252
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There will no longer be an N/A engine from BMW M. Or BMW for that matter.

Why continue to prolong the wake? Its far enough time to move on...
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      01-27-2014, 10:04 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
There will no longer be an N/A engine from BMW M. Or BMW for that matter.

Why continue to prolong the wake? Its far enough time to move on...
Cue the riots. Telling us what we already knew, and I, for one, am excited by it. But this is major news, and I think it will be polarizing.
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      01-27-2014, 10:17 AM   #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Why continue to prolong the wake? Its far enough time to move on...


I'm so tired of hearing people cry about F/I.
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      01-27-2014, 03:56 PM   #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky13 View Post
Where do you get the 45lbs lighter? 228 is 3,260 vs 3,505 for the M235 which is 245 lbs and is significant.
228 235
Well I boned that one up didn't I?
200+ is definitely significant.
hmmmmmm
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      01-27-2014, 04:36 PM   #256
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Would anybody be willing to do an engine swap if the M2 doesn't pack enough horses? Or would you're the purist and say no? P.S. Maybe it's like the Nissan gtr where if they actually added more horsepower, the 0-60 time would actually increase because it has to much initial power from 0 and the tires slip. It might be the same thing with the M2. Keeping that in mind, would you swap it? Or even drop a turbocharger in it?
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      01-27-2014, 05:53 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bradleyland View Post
I've been blowing the horn on the turbo lag issue in the CLA as much as anyone.

...

I'm concerned about the choice to go I4 in the M2. When I first heard it, my head just about popped. I thought there was no way BMW could sell the M2 with an I4 when the M235i has the turbo I6, but now I'm not sure. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes. I'm not cutting them any slack on it though. If the character of the engine sucks, I'll take my money elsewhere.
You and me think very much a like.
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      01-27-2014, 08:24 PM   #258
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Originally Posted by BMWjourney View Post
Would anybody be willing to do an engine swap if the M2 doesn't pack enough horses? Or would you're the purist and say no?
I'm sure that given enough time, we'll see all kinds of crazy swaps. I mean, look at the E30 with an S85 V10 swap. I don't think we'll see many people doing that though. Swaps are always an uncommon modification, and no sane person does it with a factory-new car unless you're going racing and you've got lots of dollars to blow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWjourney View Post
P.S. Maybe it's like the Nissan gtr where if they actually added more horsepower, the 0-60 time would actually increase because it has to much initial power from 0 and the tires slip. It might be the same thing with the M2. Keeping that in mind, would you swap it?
No, and no. It's very uncommon for 0-60 times to increase because of more power. Yes, there's a lower limit when given RWD and a set of tires of a specific size, but you can always give it less throttle off the line, then use that power as you approach the end of the run. All that bullshit you read about worse 0-60 times because of "ZOMG TOO MUCH POWHAR!" is just fanboy ranting. More power = faster acceleration until you reach the limit of adhesion, at which point the number should remain static. 0-60 is a horrible metric once you start going really fast anyway, because it's more a measure of traction once you get down sub 4.0s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWjourney View Post
Or even drop a turbocharger in it?
The M2 is already going to be turbocharged
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      01-27-2014, 08:49 PM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWjourney View Post
Would anybody be willing to do an engine swap if the M2 doesn't pack enough horses? Or would you're the purist and say no? P.S. Maybe it's like the Nissan gtr where if they actually added more horsepower, the 0-60 time would actually increase because it has to much initial power from 0 and the tires slip. It might be the same thing with the M2. Keeping that in mind, would you swap it? Or even drop a turbocharger in it?
So what's the purpose of the swap? More HP is the pro. What's the con?It seems like one con is unbalancing the car which it seems against the whole reason for going to an 4 cyl. If you don't care about that, can't you just do an engine swap or supercharge a 1M?
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      01-28-2014, 09:46 AM   #260
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1M replacement could feature a detuned M4 engine and styling cues from the M235i Racing

At the international media launch of BMW's new 2 Series, company insiders hinted heavily at a full M division version of the two-door coupe. A spokesman confirmed that the 2 Series had been "configured to accept a [more powerful] engine."

The M235i, a halfway house between a standard BMW production model and a full M division product, has a 326hp turbocharged six-cylinder engine, suggesting that a more powerful 2 Series could have as much as 380hp. The M2, which wouldn't arrive before 2016, would likely use a detuned version of the forthcoming M3 and M4 twin-turbocharged engine, which develops 430hp in those applications.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=29291
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      01-28-2014, 11:58 AM   #261
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For all you 4 cylinder skeptics/doubters... check out this bad boy.

http://www.enginelabs.com/videos/ind...00-horsepower/
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      01-28-2014, 01:58 PM   #262
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Originally Posted by The English Guy View Post
1M replacement could feature a detuned M4 engine and styling cues from the M235i Racing

At the international media launch of BMW's new 2 Series, company insiders hinted heavily at a full M division version of the two-door coupe. A spokesman confirmed that the 2 Series had been "configured to accept a [more powerful] engine."

The M235i, a halfway house between a standard BMW production model and a full M division product, has a 326hp turbocharged six-cylinder engine, suggesting that a more powerful 2 Series could have as much as 380hp. The M2, which wouldn't arrive before 2016, would likely use a detuned version of the forthcoming M3 and M4 twin-turbocharged engine, which develops 430hp in those applications.

http://www.pistonheads.com/news/defa...?storyId=29291
I guarantee you that was written by some copy-writer at Piston Heads. Note all the weasel words: "could use", "would likely use", "suggesting that". They don't know shit.
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      01-28-2014, 02:02 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by riccappa View Post
For all you 4 cylinder skeptics/doubters... check out this bad boy.

http://www.enginelabs.com/videos/ind...00-horsepower/
No one doubts they can get 350+ HP out of an I4. Look no further than the vaunted BMW M12: 1500cc, massive turbo, and (well) over 1000 HP.

Word is the torque on that engine tripled in the span of 1000 RPM making it extremely difficult to drive effectively.

The question is not how much peak HP it will make, but what the character will be. Turbo lag will ruin your day. I'm cautiously optimistic. Thus far, BMW has avoided designs that suffer from turbo lag. All trim levels of the N54, N55, and N20 have been very balanced, lag-free (relatively speaking) engines.

When the F8x M3/4 hits the streets and third-party reviewers get their hands on it, we'll get a better sense of how good of a job BMW M has done reducing turbo lag while increasing output. The S55 represents a 100 HP jump over the standard N55 on which it is based. If they can achieve that increase without lag issues, I'll feel more confident in an I4 for the M2.
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      01-28-2014, 02:20 PM   #264
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^ Great points regarding turbo lag on a high output 4-cylinder engine.


Another issue with 4-cylinder engines:

4-cylinder engines have a pause or dead spot between each power stroke, and 3-cylinder engines have even larger empty strokes. Thus neither will ever have the smoothness in power delivery of a 5-cylinder or larger engine that has overlapping power strokes.

I don't think the weight benefits of a 3-cylinder or 4-cylinder engine outweigh the smoothness and non-pulsating delivery of power that is inherent to 5-cylinder and larger engines.

It is only marketing, economics and regulation that puts these engines in road going sports cars. I don't think many sports car consumers if given the choice would ever chose the lighter but inferior engine configurations unless cost or simplicity were their primary selection factors.

For racing, I would assume such configurations are only chosen when required by class/vehicle size requirements or when those extra 10's of pounds of weights are of absolute paramount importance.

I have owned a TT-RS (2.5L Inline-5) and various Inline-6 BMW's and Flat-6 Porsches. In comparison to the 4-cylinder car's I have owned varying from standard 4-cylinder fare to a Subaru WRX and Mazda Miata, the 4-cylinder engined cars had noticeably rougher and less smooth/consistent power delivery. I have never driven a 4-cylinder car where the power felt "enjoyable" or "exhilarating" like a 5-cylinder or larger engine does. This is also totally irrelevant of whether a car is naturally aspirated or has a turbo, an no amount of advanced engineering can do a thing to change these basic characteristics of engine cylinder count.

Can a 4-cylinder engine be great in a sports car? Sure it can, but it is never truly ideal even in great cars like the E30 M3 (done to meet racing class requirements). If a car is too small in physical size to contain an engine larger than a 4-cylinder then sure I can understand (original Lotus Elise for instance), but the 2-series is not a small car and is clearly designed as a platform to hold an Inline-6 or probably even larger engine. It is always a economic/hierarchical compromise IMHO for a car as large as the 2-series, and consequently there are people who are justified in not being thrilled by 4-cylinder engines being used in such "relatively large" sports cars.

I don't think "fun/pure sports car" and 4-cylinder engine belong in the same sentence unless we are talking about something truly small like an Elise, Miata or Alpha 4C... or a homologation car like the E30.

Like that pistonheads article suggests, a de-tuned S55 would truly satisfy everyone. The other brands do the same thing to great success.

Or maybe to preserve the hierarchy BMW should just take the S55 and lop off 1 cylinder to create a 2.5L Inline-5 turbo to stick in the M2... if they can stomach it.
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