[akkando]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

Therefore, the civic M2 will absolutely depreciate, especially those that are pre-LCI. They might do it at a slower rate than the average car or BMW, but it's already happening.

I've never worried about a car depreciating...which is the main reason this topic is amusing to me...

Oh yea! I mean who would buy an M2 without the updated tail lights? Totally transforms the car!

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by akkando

Oh yea! I mean who would buy an M2 without the updated tail lights? Totally transforms the car!

Oh they will, for sure - and it will be cheaper than the LCI version.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

The M2 is much more "mass-produced" in the sense that there's not a numerically limited amount of cars. BMW does artificially limit the numbers produced (to keep demand high and to avoid M2s sitting on lots), but that's not the same thing as having a truly limited car.

Just to pick nits (isn't that why we're all here?), this isn't true, although I agree that the M2 and even the 1M are mass-produced cars. The plant where BMW is churning out the M2 and other models is doing so at maximum capacity. The number of BMWs produced there is limited by the fact that there is no additional capacity available – and there won't be, until the plant renovations are completed in a year or two.

The fact is that all of the other vehicles produced there have higher margins than the M2, so they're of more interest to BMW's bottom line. So, BMW would lose a little money (compared to what it makes on the other models) on every additional M2 it scheduled in lieu of another model. That is what limits the production of the M2s - not some artificial constraint "to keep demand high" or a decision made by a beady-eyed accountant wearing leather shorts counting cars from a dusty corner of the factory.

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Just to pick nits (isn't that why we're all here?), this isn't true, although I agree that the M2 and even the 1M are mass-produced cars. The plant where BMW is churning out the M2 and other models is doing so at maximum capacity. The number of BMWs produced there is limited by the fact that there is no additional capacity available – and there won't be, until the plant renovations are completed in a year or two.

The fact is that all of the other vehicles produced there have higher margins than the M2, so they're of more interest to BMW's bottom line. So, BMW would lose a little money (compared to what it makes on the other models) on every additional M2 it scheduled in lieu of another model. That is what limits the production of the M2s - not some artificial constraint "to keep demand high" or a decision made by a beady-eyed accountant wearing leather shorts counting cars from a dusty corner of the factory.

A well reasoned opposing position.

I just don't believe it to be true - take the E86 M Coupe as an example. That car was bonkers and cracking...in a great way, like the 1M or M2...but not very practical and they made too many. And they sat on lots...and ended up garnering 10-15K discounts. I know, because my dad got one with an enormous discount. Have you noticed that there hasn't been an M in that segment since?

Which is one big reason why I think BMW was so careful with the numbers of 1Ms built, and is taking a similar (but slightly less conservative) route with the M2.

A 228 or 235/240 can sit on lots for a year or be moved along under invoice price, and no one really cares...but you don't want that happening to an M car. So the M2 gets "less" spots than it really could. Not only to make sure that they don't sit on a lot, but BMW also hopes that you will be "forced" to move into an M3/4...because those also have a higher profit margin.

Just my opinion - but from that point of view, a reasonable argument could be made that BMW is artificially keeping the number of M2s low.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by dmboone25

A well reasoned opposing position.

A 228 or 235/240 can sit on lots for a year or be moved along under invoice price, and no one really cares...but you don't want that happening to an M car. So the M2 gets "less" spots than it really could. Not only to make sure that they don't sit on a lot, but BMW also hopes that you will be "forced" to move into an M3/4...because those also have a higher profit margin.

Actually, BMW couldn't care less about any of this, because long before what you're suggesting happens, the car is paid for by the dealer. BMW has its money - and the dealer has to live with the outcome of whatever price he/she can finagle from a customer for a car. Except for Tesla, the manufacturers' customers aren't real people, they're dealers.

[Nkc]

Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete

This is a bullshit post. I just ran an employee lease on a totally base AW M2 with no options, MT, all discounts and 10K miles per year. In other words, the cheapest of the cheap and the payments are well into the $700's USD.

$600 Canadian is roughly $488 USD. No f_cking way.

Originally Posted by ilvtofu

Not sure which dealership your friend works for, but IIRC one of the lower mainland dealerships leases out to their employees for 1% MSRP per month, in which case $965 would seem high.

.


So here's the info I have so far.

On Jan 24, 2018 BMW Group Canada sent out a memo stating that the M2 is now eligible for the program as a Tier 1 DYB.

This means that employees can lease the M2 as a tier 1 for 1% of MSRP per month. Currently, almost every dealer in the lower mainland holds 10+ 2018 M2s in their system ranging from $65k to $75k cad that isn't moving. For me, I would be getting something much closer to the $65k one with manual, no sunroof and minimal options. That's about $650 lease/mth before taxes and extra incentives.

In response to ilvtofu (I assume you're the same tofu on RS), yes it does seem high but the M2 was considered a "retail lease" before Jan 24, 2018 hence the $965/mth before tax. In anyway, that's about a 33% discount for an employee to lease an M2.

Why does BMW do this for the M2? I think you can all speculate in your own ways.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Nkc

.


So here's the info I have so far.

On Jan 24, 2018 BMW Group Canada sent out a memo stating that the M2 is now eligible for the program as a Tier 1 DYB.

This means that employees can lease the M2 as a tier 1 for 1% of MSRP per month. Currently, almost every dealer in the lower mainland holds 10+ 2018 M2s in their system ranging from $65k to $75k cad that isn't moving. For me, I would be getting something much closer to the $65k one with manual, no sunroof and minimal options. That's about $650 lease/mth before taxes and extra incentives.

In response to ilvtofu (I assume you're the same tofu on RS), yes it does seem high but the M2 was considered a "retail lease" before Jan 24, 2018 hence the $965/mth before tax. In anyway, that's about a 33% discount for an employee to lease an M2.

Why does BMW do this for the M2? I think you can all speculate in your own ways.

All these dealers have 10+ 2018 M2s just sitting on the lot? I think that tells you more about Canadians than it does about M2s.

[GregoryK]

I don't think he is saying on their lot but in the allocation system. Each dealership only gets so many.....
I love this tread - Great to hear all the different views.

[Die ///M Rakete]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Actually, BMW couldn't care less about any of this, because long before what you're suggesting happens, the car is paid for by the dealer. BMW has its money - and the dealer has to live with the outcome of whatever price he/she can finagle from a customer for a car. Except for Tesla, the manufacturers' customers aren't real people, they're dealers.

You, sir, know what you're talking about.

[Chako]

Originally Posted by akkando

All these dealers have 10+ 2018 M2s just sitting on the lot? I think that tells you more about Canadians than it does about M2s.

"Canada is the highest per capita M market in the world and that's in a country where you are not allowed to drive fast. That shows how people think. Canadians like fun products." A quote from the former President of BMW Italy, Mexico, Eastern Europe, Nordic, & Canada

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by akkando

All these dealers have 10+ 2018 M2s just sitting on the lot? I think that tells you more about Canadians than it does about M2s.

It’s the middle of winter. Between October and March nobody is going to by an M car up here.

[Arcanum-UK]

Originally Posted by Chako

"Canada is the highest per capita M market in the world and that's in a country where you are not allowed to drive fast. That shows how people think. Canadians like fun products." A quote from the former President of BMW Italy, Mexico, Eastern Europe, Nordic, & Canada

This seems surprising given the table on this thread:

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1456679

US bought 352K M & M-Perfomance in 2017 for a 323-Million population (0.11%)
Canada bought 48K M & M-Performance in 2017 for a 36-Million population (0.13%)
UK bought 241K M & M-Performance in 2017 for a 65-Million population (0.37%)
Germany bought 311K M & M-Performance in 2017 for a 82-Million population (0.38%)

OK, it's M and M-Performance - though that's how BMW chose to calculate M sales. Yet even if we're talking about true M cars, it's hard to see that the ratio's would tilt in Canada's favour as being the highest per capita true M car market in the world. For all M & M-Performance, Canada is only marginally ahead of the US and a third of UK & Germany.

[edit] Of course, I'm assuming that the table in the link can be interpreted as Canada = America's sales (450K cars) - Latin America (50K cars) - US (352K cars). Which seems sensible as I guess Mexico will be counted as part of Latin America?

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

Just to pick nits (isn't that why we're all here?), this isn't true, although I agree that the M2 and even the 1M are mass-produced cars. The plant where BMW is churning out the M2 and other models is doing so at maximum capacity. The number of BMWs produced there is limited by the fact that there is no additional capacity available – and there won't be, until the plant renovations are completed in a year or two.

The fact is that all of the other vehicles produced there have higher margins than the M2, so they're of more interest to BMW's bottom line. So, BMW would lose a little money (compared to what it makes on the other models) on every additional M2 it scheduled in lieu of another model. That is what limits the production of the M2s - not some artificial constraint "to keep demand high" or a decision made by a beady-eyed accountant wearing leather shorts counting cars from a dusty corner of the factory.

This is 100 percent correct.

dmboone25 just look at how many 2 series that are sold vs how many 1 series hatchbacks are sold in Germany. The X1 and also the X2 I believe are also produced at Leipzig.

In combination with the fact that nearly every car made in the Leipzig factory brings more profit than an M2, is the fact that the M2 is clearly marketed as a loss leader.

Buyers come in looking for the M2 and many walk out with a smoking deal on an M3 or M4 which are better appointed , have more interior space , and are much more available in stock.

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Buyers come in looking for the M2 and many walk out with a smoking deal on an M3 or M4 which are better appointed , have more interior space , and are much more available in stock.

The M3 and M4 have greater margins of around $800-$1,000 before adding any options, meaning the potential for greater profit for the dealer (and a higher commission for the salesperson), compared to the sale of an M2. You have to be a pretty hardcore M2 buyer to not at least consider one of the larger, more luxurious, better-equipped higher models, especially considering the "small" difference in payments if you're getting a loan - and more favorable leasing packages, which have never been good for the M2.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

The M3 and M4 have greater margins of around $800-$1,000 before adding any options, meaning the potential for greater profit for the dealer (and a higher commission for the salesperson), compared to the sale of an M2. You have to be a pretty hardcore M2 buyer to not at least consider one of the larger, more luxurious, better-equipped higher models, especially considering the "small" difference in payments if you're getting a loan - and more favorable leasing packages, which have never been good for the M2.

I've stated for years on here the M2 is marketed as a loss leader.

In my local market , dealers literally talk down the 1 and 2 series. A friend of mine that had a 228 eventually was shamed into a 3.

The dealer rep that greeted him when he came in for service would ask him why he drives an " entry level " bmw and offer to bring over a sales person that can show him the new 3 ..

DFW areas rarely stock 1 and 2 series models and even when they do they add so many options that they are priced at or near the 3 series.

[GregoryK]

UK bought 241K M & M-Performance in 2017 for a 65-Million population (0.37%)

Arcanum-UK I bet the Brits will end up dropping the consumption of BMW and M cars once they officially leave the EU.

They will have to go back to driving and producing the cars they made before....

Oh yes, the Reliant Regal handles much better with Bilstein B6 HD Shocks...

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

This is 100 percent correct.

dmboone25 just look at how many 2 series that are sold vs how many 1 series hatchbacks are sold in Germany. The X1 and also the X2 I believe are also produced at Leipzig.

In combination with the fact that nearly every car made in the Leipzig factory brings more profit than an M2, is the fact that the M2 is clearly marketed as a loss leader.

Buyers come in looking for the M2 and many walk out with a smoking deal on an M3 or M4 which are better appointed , have more interior space , and are much more available in stock.

You both make good points - but I like my conspiracy theory better!

(bows head in shame)

[Destroya]

“ was shamed into a 3 “. So true! They tried it on me.

[Mario_Kart]

Originally Posted by GregoryK

I don't think he is saying on their lot but in the allocation system. Each dealership only gets so many.....
I love this tread - Great to hear all the different views.

BJ had a few 2017 M2 that didn't sell. They then sold it as preowned/demo.


Here's one of them, the other few have since sold.
https://www.brianjesselbmwpreowned.c...5f8a50dbcd.htm

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Destroya

“ was shamed into a 3 “. So true! They tried it on me.

Apparently a hot chick behind the counter saying awww... you have a BMW.. but it's so small... has an affect on some guys.

[Destroya]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Apparently a hot chick behind the counter saying awww... you have a BMW.. but it's so small... has an affect on some guys.

Or, “you are a BMW owner in training, step up to the real thing.”

[qnet]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Apparently a hot chick behind the counter saying awww... you have a BMW.. but it's so small... has an affect on some guys.