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      01-31-2018, 10:22 AM   #67
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So just to be on the same page with everyone regarding nomenclature that Bmw may decide to change at randomly given time.

M2 current vehicle (2017) will be scrapped for a new model.
M2 Competition (M2C) will be the new standard model for 2018.
M2 Competition Sport (M2 CS) may or may not happen as a 2019 model.
M2 Competition Sport Lightweight (M2 CSL) supposedly scrapped


1) I know the trim lines CSL and CS have been used on a few different models in the past. Has BMW every used the name "competition" as its own model before other than the ZCP packages of the past?

2) What are the chances BMW just decided to change the name from CS to C and were all assuming there will be a 2019 M2 CS, but that car is essentially just a the 2018 M2C. Where are we with lifespan of the current 2 series? Is this chassis going to stay into production even going to stay in production until 2019?

I don't know if they keep changing names to keep us guessing or because they themselves are confused lol

Regardless awesome info, keep it up!
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      01-31-2018, 10:23 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus99 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by RPM33 View Post
Artemis: Are you going for the M2 Competition or are you waiting for the M2 CS in 2019?
Do you want 4 seats to 2, is the same question as has been confirmed so far, no?
Last September BMW M boss Frank Van Meel pointed out that a BMW "CS" model is supposed to get 4 seats, while a BMW "CSL" model is supposed to get 2 seats:
Van Meel said that the CSL designation will replace GTS on the four-rung hierarchy of M cars, which starts with the base model then progresses to Competition Pack, CS, then CSL. Like the GTS, CSLs will be BMW M's most hardcore offerings.
«CSL [will be] the top-of-the-line track tool, made on the track for the track, just with a number plate,» Van Meel said. With a CSL, you can expect cup tires, coilover suspension, a roll cage, water injection, and a fire extinguisher. Van Meel says that the CS on the other hand is «also a track tool, but with four seats,» and more emphasis on comfort.

(source: here)
But that was still before the rumor surfaced last December that plans for a hardcore F87 M2 have been shelved (or at least put on hold) for the moment: see here.

So it remains to be seen whether there will ever be any hardcore F87 M2 before first-generation M2 end of production (October 2020), and what badge it will get.
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      01-31-2018, 10:55 AM   #69
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Great stuff and lots of info, thanks Artemis!

So, with the new higher price tag; assuming close to that of 718 GTS, M2 Competition would still be people's choice?

I love my M2, done tons of mods to it, track it a lot too, but I don't find the M2 Competition attractive enough to make the switch. Sure it's got the S55 engine now and power is up to 405/410 hp, but a tuned N55 would get there too. So unless there's some other special features about the new M2, I'd get a 718 GTS if I had to get a new car...
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      01-31-2018, 11:07 AM   #70
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^ Last posts from Garage5 and Artemis, great summary of what's up, thanks!
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      01-31-2018, 11:29 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acexxon View Post
Great stuff and lots of info, thanks Artemis!

So, with the new higher price tag; assuming close to that of 718 GTS, M2 Competition would still be people's choice?

I love my M2, done tons of mods to it, track it a lot too, but I don't find the M2 Competition attractive enough to make the switch. Sure it's got the S55 engine now and power is up to 405/410 hp, but a tuned N55 would get there too. So unless there's some other special features about the new M2, I'd get a 718 GTS if I had to get a new car...
It isn’t going to cost the same as a 718 GTS, not sure where you picked that up from in this thread. Everything is going to be an option. Think of the current M2 as it sits, same wheels, seats with Dakota leather, standard brakes, etc...but it will have a detuned S55. If you want new seats...click that option, if you want perforated leather...click that option, if you want upgraded brakes...click that option, if you want new light weight wheels..click that option...etc. It will be up to the customer how far he/she wants to take it. Base msrp will still be comfortably under M3/M4.
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      01-31-2018, 11:50 AM   #72
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Can't wait to see the CS & CSL already. I'd sign-up for the 4 seater one
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      01-31-2018, 11:51 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acexxon View Post
Great stuff and lots of info, thanks Artemis!

So, with the new higher price tag; assuming close to that of 718 GTS, M2 Competition would still be people's choice?

I love my M2, done tons of mods to it, track it a lot too, but I don't find the M2 Competition attractive enough to make the switch. Sure it's got the S55 engine now and power is up to 405/410 hp, but a tuned N55 would get there too. So unless there's some other special features about the new M2, I'd get a 718 GTS if I had to get a new car...
It isn’t going to cost the same as a 718 GTS, not sure where you picked that up from in this thread. Everything is going to be an option. Think of the current M2 as it sits, same wheels, seats with Dakota leather, standard brakes, etc...but it will have a detuned S55. If you want new seats...click that option, if you want perforated leather...click that option, if you want upgraded brakes...click that option, if you want new light weight wheels..click that option...etc. It will be up to the customer how far he/she wants to take it. Base msrp will still be comfortably under M3/M4.
You nailed it.
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      01-31-2018, 12:14 PM   #74
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I believe me and my group of friends saw this at buttonwillow (along with M5 obviously before it came out) on a Friday. It was cool because we rented the track and we were almost all bmw's so they came over to the hot pits and we were able to talk/laugh with them. BMW engineers / test drivers took pictures of our cars but I'm still looking for them on the web
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      01-31-2018, 12:37 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SickFinga View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
MUE=Mule/Pre-Series?
MUE is MÜ which means model update aka LCI
MUE = Modellueberarbeitung (Modellüberarbeitung) = model rework or model update.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garage5 View Post
I don't know if they keep changing names to keep us guessing or because they themselves are confused lol
Let's not forget that the car and car name have not been officially announced yet. So, as a matter of fact, no official name for this car has ever been 'changed'.

But it's a certainty that the car is coming: the VINs indicate several PR campaign cars (codes 901, 903, 904 and 906: photo, video and trade fair vehicles).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garage5 View Post
1) I know the trim lines CSL and CS have been used on a few different models in the past. Has BMW every used the name "competition" as its own model before other than the ZCP packages of the past?
AFAIK, the "Competition" name is new.

However "Competition Package" (internal designation: "ZCP") ain't new. I believe that BMW first used it with the E46 M3. In December 2004 the ZCP was launched as an option in the US (2410 were made [BL93]). That ZCP option was also offered outside the US from September 2005 onwards (326 LHD [BL91] + 275 RHD [BL92] were made). It was an option, not a different model. In the past also an E92 "M3 Competition Edition" (KA381) has existed (385 cars), known in the UK as "M3 Frozen Silver Edition", and an E92 "M3 Coupe Competition" (ZCP) for the Japanese market (27 cars).

A possible explanation for the "M2 Competition" and "M2 CS" mashup: the RHD version of the E46 M3 with the Competition Package was offered in the UK as "M3 CS" (though without "M3 CS" badge) (275 were made [BL92]). So the E46 M3 CS was in fact the E46 M3 Competition Package. But then again, the forthcoming M2 model is called "M2 Competition" instead of "M2 Competition Package". It's a new M2 model, not an M2 with a ZCP option.

And what about the name "Club Sport" or "Clubsport" instead of "Competition" or "Competition Sport" (CS) ? I guess Porsche wouldn't allow BMW to use that name.

Personally I think that - as a wink to the E30 M3 Evolution II and E30 M3 Sport Evolution - "M2 Evolution" would have been a better choice than "M2 Competition". It would avoid confusion with "Competition Package" and the engine move from N55 to S55 is indisputably an evolution. Then BMW could also have reserved "M2 Sport Evolution" for the eventual M2 hardcore version.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garage5 View Post
Where are we with lifespan of the current 2 series? Is this chassis going to stay into production even going to stay in production until 2019?
  • F22 2-Series end of production: 2021 (source: here and here)
  • F87 M2 Competition end of production: October 2020 (source: here and here + March 2017 screenshot below).

(source: here (dead link now)).
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      01-31-2018, 01:02 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And what about the name "Club Sport" or "Clubsport" instead of "Competition" or "Competition Sport" (CS) ? I guess Porsche wouldn't allow BMW to use that name.
Artemis it's the other way around. I saw a video about new 991.2 911 Carrera T and they said that Porsche wanted to name it 911 Carrera CS (Clubsport) but couldn't because BMW trademarked that name/moniker earlier.
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      01-31-2018, 01:40 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benef1cient View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
And what about the name "Club Sport" or "Clubsport" instead of "Competition" or "Competition Sport" (CS) ? I guess Porsche wouldn't allow BMW to use that name.
Artemis it's the other way around. I saw a video about new 991.2 911 Carrera T and they said that Porsche wanted to name it 911 Carrera CS (Clubsport) but couldn't because BMW trademarked that name/moniker earlier.
BMW has trademarked "CS" and "CSL": see the dedicated thread here (source: public WIPO website):
  • trademark protection filed for Germany:
    • CS: M1 CS | M2 CS | M3 CS | M4 CS | M5 CS | M6 CS | M7 CS | M8 CS (November 2016)
    • CSL: M1 CSL | M2 CSL | M3 CSL M4 CSL | M5 CSL | M6 CSL | M7 CSL | M8 CSL (January 2017)
  • trademark protection filed also for International, U.S. and Canada:
    • CS: M2 CS | M4 CS (March 2017)
    • CSL: M2 CSL | M4 CSL | M8 CSL (April 2017)
Volkswagen AG obtained the "Clubsport" trademark for Germany and Switzerland. However, its application to get a EUIPO trademark (EU) got refused in 2015 (no indication to the effect that "Clubsport" has acquired distinctiveness through use in trade).

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      01-31-2018, 02:17 PM   #78
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.......In the meantime, I am putting my M2 for sale, which means removing all parts from it that could go to the Competition when it arrives. Let the rebuild to stock begin

MR
Slightly off topic, but are yours MP Parts? And if so are they all removable?

Not sure if my dealer is spinning me a yarn but they advised that some of the parts couldn't be removed once on which sounds bogus to me.
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      01-31-2018, 02:25 PM   #79
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Slightly off topic, but are yours MP Parts? And if so are they all removable?

Not sure if my dealer is spinning me a yarn but they advised that some of the parts couldn't be removed once on which sounds bogus to me.
Some can be removed, some not... Example:

- Black front grille? Can be removed
- Black side gills? Can be removed
- Carbon mirror caps? Can be removed, but placing the old ones back is hard
- Carbon rear spoiler? Can be removed, but it is definitely not easy. Good luck with that one....

MR
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      01-31-2018, 02:37 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Artemis View Post
Last September BMW M boss Frank Van Meel pointed out that a BMW "CS" model is supposed to get 4 seats, while a BMW "CSL" model is supposed to get 2 seats:
But that was still before the rumor surfaced last December that plans for a hardcore F87 M2 have been shelved (or at least put on hold) for the moment: see here.
So it remains to be seen whether there will ever be any hardcore F87 M2 before first-generation M2 end of production (October 2020), and what badge it will get.
But wasn't that back when there was possibly a CS and a CSL coming? With the CSL being similar to the GTS, with only 2 seats?

And then the CS got replaced with Competition. So at this point, the only ? I thought is whether the version after Competition will be a true CSL, with 2 seats, or a true CS, with 4 seats – and if the M3 CS is anything to go by, it won't have a manual.

Right?
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      01-31-2018, 03:33 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lotus99 View Post
Artemis
But wasn't that back when there was possibly a CS and a CSL coming? With the CSL being similar to the GTS, with only 2 seats?
And then the CS got replaced with Competition. So at this point, the only ? I thought is whether the version after Competition will be a true CSL, with 2 seats, or a true CS, with 4 seats – and if the M3 CS is anything to go by, it won't have a manual.
Right?
Yeah, as we're no insiders, at some point we all lost track of what was/is going on. We can only try to see the bigger picture. Alike hips, VINs don't lie.

Later, after the release, enthusiasts could ask BMW M about some development backstories.

"It Came From Garching" instead of "It Came From The Desert" (Amiga - 1989):

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      01-31-2018, 04:22 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
In the meantime, I am putting my M2 for sale, which means removing all parts from it that could go to the Competition when it arrives. Let the rebuild to stock begin

MR
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
Some can be removed, some not... Example:

- Black front grille? Can be removed
- Black side gills? Can be removed
- Carbon mirror caps? Can be removed, but placing the old ones back is hard
- Carbon rear spoiler? Can be removed, but it is definitely not easy. Good luck with that one....

MR
The black front grille will not fit and will not be needed.
The black side gills will not be needed.
The carbon mirror caps will not fit.
It's not worth the pain removing the rear spoiler.

If I was you, I would just leave it as is.
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      01-31-2018, 05:25 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
Some can be removed, some not... Example:

- Black front grille? Can be removed
- Black side gills? Can be removed
- Carbon mirror caps? Can be removed, but placing the old ones back is hard
- Carbon rear spoiler? Can be removed, but it is definitely not easy. Good luck with that one....

MR
Thanks. You have the diffusor? How about the side winglets and front splitters?

My new M2 will come with these, and I was thinking about what happens when I sell too.
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      01-31-2018, 09:21 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
The black front grille will not fit and will not be needed.
The black side gills will not be needed.
The carbon mirror caps will not fit.
It's not worth the pain removing the rear spoiler.

If I was you, I would just leave it as is.
So....you’re saying it will get ///M mirrors, whatever those are?

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      01-31-2018, 11:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
So....you’re saying it will get ///M mirrors, whatever those are?

He isn't saying that explicitly, but he is saying that the mirrors are changing...
But for those of you who like silly little wing things hanging off the top of your mirror, I'm guessing you'll want the 2019 car.
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      02-01-2018, 12:51 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gatte View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
In the meantime, I am putting my M2 for sale, which means removing all parts from it that could go to the Competition when it arrives. Let the rebuild to stock begin

MR
The black front grille will not fit and will not be needed.
The black side gills will not be needed.
The carbon mirror caps will not fit.
It's not worth the pain removing the rear spoiler.

If I was you, I would just leave it as is.
I have a lot more on my car hahahaha. ASD removed, red starter button, steering wheel in alcantara, longer black shifter paddles, center gear mode controller and hand brake grip in carbon, Awron display in the dash, diffuser in carbon, carbon roof wrap vinyl, Akrapovic exhaust system, etc...

And there is also something called resell value if you have all the original parts laying around as well. So in the end, I will have a lot of parts removed. Some will go to the Competition, some not.

MR
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      02-01-2018, 12:57 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by as7920 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
Some can be removed, some not... Example:

- Black front grille? Can be removed
- Black side gills? Can be removed
- Carbon mirror caps? Can be removed, but placing the old ones back is hard
- Carbon rear spoiler? Can be removed, but it is definitely not easy. Good luck with that one....

MR
Thanks. You have the diffusor? How about the side winglets and front splitters?

My new M2 will come with these, and I was thinking about what happens when I sell too.
Diffuser can be removed, side winglets are glued and screwed on, same goes for the front splitters, but nobody wants those side things so don't try reselling them Hahaha.

MR
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      02-01-2018, 01:22 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR. View Post
Diffuser can be removed, side winglets are glued and screwed on, same goes for the front splitters, but nobody wants those side things so don't try reselling them Hahaha.

MR
Ah, OK, so if there is glue involved (or is that the similar adhesive to the spoiler?) it may be a lot more difficult to do so.

I guess there wouldn't be much point selling the car with front and side carbon but no diffusor.

Thanks for that info.
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