[ORIGIN M.]

Got my LCI 3 days before Christmas so I am damn happy...

[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Never understood this "what do you need the x amount of extra HP for?". As long as the the car consistently delivers the extra power, I will take it for anything you can think of. Track, canyons, highway pulls, etc... M4 Comp makes 440whp and never thought it was too much power. I like to keep the revs high and occasionally shift at the redline even if it means triple digits depending on the gear. If we go by the same logic, 370hp is too much for the street and useless too. Why don't we all go get a Miata then? Also, the difference will not be just 10% or 40hp. With a simple M3/M4 CS software flash, M2C will make 450whp. With some wider 295s at the back, it will be one hell of a car.

I don’t disagree - I just object to the guys who “know” that a tenth 0-62 found by BMW’s test drivers is going to show up when they, as average drivers, get behind the wheel. Would I always vote for more horsepower? Of course. But with average drivers, based on all the “facts” in evidence, I think the M2 will pull the M2 Comp off the line (lighter weight and better weight transfer to the rear tires), and I don’t think the M2 Comp will start to pull the M2 Comp until they’re both past 60.

BTW, the Miata is going to get a whopping 181 horsepower next year - you’d better get in line now.

[Rupes]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Never understood this "what do you need the x amount of extra HP for?". As long as the the car consistently delivers the extra power, I will take it for anything you can think of. Track, canyons, highway pulls, etc... M4 Comp makes 440whp and never thought it was too much power. I like to keep the revs high and occasionally shift at the redline even if it means triple digits depending on the gear. If we go by the same logic, 370hp is too much for the street and useless too. Why don't we all go get a Miata then? Also, the difference will not be just 10% or 40hp. With a simple M3/M4 CS software flash, M2C will make 450whp. With some wider 295s at the back, it will be one hell of a car.

I generally agree. But adding power while also adding weight (to the front end?) isn't a formula I care for. 40HP for an extra 120 pounds probably isn't a huge deal, but it also doesn't do much for the overall power to weight ratio.

People joke about the Miata, but I'd highly recommend you drive one before you knock it. It's a lot of fun. The other car I considered before the M2 was the Cayman. I didn't even consider an M4 because it felt too big. Maybe the M2 comp will hide that extra weight, but we're now back to a smaller car that basically weighs the same as it's M4 big sibling.

I'm eager to drive the comp M2, but to talk about power gains without discussing weight gains at the same time isn't a fair assessment. You can also talk about tunes, but how many owners are risking their warranty for that? Not many. For me, and others, the M2 was a pretty perfect match of size, weight, and power. For you, it sounds like the M4 checked all those boxes.

Maybe the new M2 will surprise me in the same way the original one did - I definitely won't be able to make that decision now though from a few leaked pictures and a spec sheet.

[GregoryK]

Just drove my chipped JCW today. Haven't driven it for 2 months. After driving the M2. What a great little car. Almost 1000lbs less than the M2. So tossable and quick. It is hard to believe that stock it is 2 seconds slower to 60mph. The M2 is way more car but for around a city i'll take the JCW! Shame I'm selling it!

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

I don’t disagree - I just object to the guys who “know” that a tenth 0-62 found by BMW’s test drivers is going to show up when they, as average drivers, get behind the wheel. Would I always vote for more horsepower? Of course. But with average drivers, based on all the “facts” in evidence, I think the M2 will pull the M2 Comp off the line (lighter weight and better weight transfer to the rear tires), and I don’t think the M2 Comp will start to pull the M2 Comp until they’re both past 60.

BTW, the Miata is going to get a whopping 181 horsepower next year - you’d better get in line now.

We'll see... If BMW underrated the S55 in M2C as they did with M3/M4, the real world HP difference might be more than just 40HP (my guess is it could be 60whp or more. Stock vs stock, same day, same dyno).

Originally Posted by Rupes

I generally agree. But adding power while also adding weight (to the front end?) isn't a formula I care for. 40HP for an extra 120 pounds probably isn't a huge deal, but it also doesn't do much for the overall power to weight ratio.

People joke about the Miata, but I'd highly recommend you drive one before you knock it. It's a lot of fun. The other car I considered before the M2 was the Cayman. I didn't even consider an M4 because it felt too big. Maybe the M2 comp will hide that extra weight, but we're now back to a smaller car that basically weighs the same as it's M4 big sibling.

I'm eager to drive the comp M2, but to talk about power gains without discussing weight gains at the same time isn't a fair assessment. You can also talk about tunes, but how many owners are risking their warranty for that? Not many. For me, and others, the M2 was a pretty perfect match of size, weight, and power. For you, it sounds like the M4 checked all those boxes.

Maybe the new M2 will surprise me in the same way the original one did - I definitely won't be able to make that decision now though from a few leaked pictures and a spec sheet.

I don't blame BMW for adding 120lbs with a closed-deck engine and extra cooling while trying to keep the price pretty much the same. Can the extra weight screw things up? It very well can! Can't wait to see the reviews, tests, track results etc.

My Miata comment wasn't a joke. I mentioned Miata because it's such a fun car while being underpowered IMO. I drove one not only on the streets but also on a track as well. I also tracked last gen Viper TA, Hellcat (both at the racing school), and my M4 so I'm aware more power doesn't mean more fun. I found my M4 to be the perfect recipe for my needs as you mentioned. It's maybe not as track capable as a Viper but also doesn't cost as much as one either. It's maybe not as fast as a Hellcat but it's still plenty fast while handling worlds better than a Hellcat. I try to track my cars 10-12 times a year so a fun track car is always on top of my list. However, the majority of driving is still on streets where I still enjoy straight line acceleration. After living with my M4 for almost 2 years, I can't imagine getting in a car that can't deliver the same thrill. Therefore, I welcome the extra HP and the tuning potential of M2C even if it comes at the expense of extra 120lbs. Oh btw have you driven a Camaro SS 1LE? Almost 3800lbs, 54/46 weight distribution and drives much better than my M4 Comp at half the cost (I would never get one due to the esthetics but definitely an amazing car).

That being said, I'm very hopeful for the M2C but at the same time I'm not a fanboy either. This goes for any make and model including M2, M2C, or M3/M4. I'm not afraid to point out the shortcomings of a car out loud. Extra weight and the possibility of not being able to tune the S55 in M2C are both are serious concerns for me. If M2C drives just like my M4, if it doesn't feel more nimble, can't hide the extra weight or if it's impossible to bring the power level to at least M3/M4 CS level easily, I can pretty much say I'll be out. Hopefully all these concerns will be cleared before my car arrives to the dealer lol.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against the current M2. It's a great, true M car and in fact I waited in a list for 10 months to get one back in 2015-2016 and even ordered one. Cancelled my order due to my concerns about the already maxed out N55. If you guys are enjoying your cars as it is and don't really feel the need for the extra (potential) power, there is definitely no reason to move to M2C. I like the front grill of the base M2 better too and much prefer the sound of N55 over S55 as well

[ScreamingChicken]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

Got my LCI 3 days before Christmas so I am damn happy...

So did I and been loving every minute with it since!

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by ScreamingChicken

So did I and been loving every minute with it since!

Yep,,, the sound alone is the ultimate reward.

Those poor bloody M3/4 Owners...

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by cntzl

We'll see... If BMW underrated the S55 in M2C as they did with M3/M4, the real world HP difference might be more than just 40HP (my guess is it could be 60whp or more. Stock vs stock, same day, same dyno).

Funny how you assume only the S55 is underrated. Dynos I have read show the stock M2 is only 45-50hp below the stock M3 on the same dyno, same day. So likely the differential will be less with a detuned S55.

[GregoryK]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

Funny how you assume only the S55 is underrated. Dynos I have read show the stock M2 is only 45-50hp below the stock M3 on the same dyno, same day. So likely the differential will be less with a detuned S55.

I think the word "Detuned" is what will capture new customers. "Detuned" means tuning is likely possible and easy. So for an additional $500 your new 2019 M2 will be 500bhp. That's almost 50% more power than a stock 2018. Does this car need that performance? That's another story but the possibility is what will have this car fly off the line at Leipzig.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by GregoryK

I think the word "Detuned" is what will capture new customers. "Detuned" means tuning is likely possible and easy. So for an additional $500 your new 2019 M2 will be 500bhp. That's almost 50% more power than a stock 2018. Does this car need that performance? That's another story but the possibility is what will have this car fly off the line at Leipzig.

I am really curious to see how BMW handles the detuning as well. If the S55 is just plugged in with all the hardware capable of safely delivering 500hp, and only a flash tune needed to get there, why bother to deliver it with this artificial 405hp limit?

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

Funny how you assume only the S55 is underrated. Dynos I have read show the stock M2 is only 45-50hp below the stock M3 on the same dyno, same day. So likely the differential will be less with a detuned S55.

I don't assume anything. On shitty California 91oct, I have yet to see a stock M2 making over 330-335whp. Just for reference, M4 ZCP made 440whp on the same day same dyno. I don't think there is anything left in N55 to be underrated. You can doubt the tuning potential of S55 all you want. Arguing here won't get us anywhere. However, one of us is in for a big surprise pretty soon. If it's me, if M2C cannot be tuned to M3/M4 levels, it'll be a problem for me and I would reconsider getting rid of my M4 in that case. Also, regarding your question why BMW didn't leave the engine output as it is on M3/M4, it's called marketing and they have to position the car as a lesser M4 in almost every way so of course they aren't going to out of the box give you what you can get from an M4.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by cntzl

I don't assume anything. On shitty California 91oct, I have yet to see a stock M2 making over 330-335whp. Just for reference, M4 ZCP made 440whp on the same day same dyno. I don't think there is anything left in N55 to be underrated. You can doubt the tuning potential of S55 all you want. Arguing here won't get us anywhere. However, one of us is in for a big surprise pretty soon. If it's me, if M2C cannot be tuned to M3/M4 levels, it'll be a problem for me and I would reconsider getting rid of my M4 in that case. Also, regarding your question why BMW didn't leave the engine output as it is on M3/M4, it's called marketing and they have to position the car as a lesser M4 in almost every way so of course they aren't going to out of the box give you what you can get from an M4.

I am not questioning the tunability of the S55 at all. I was just commenting on the stock to stock comparisons I have seen. Then you throw in the ZCP... which is not the same comparison as the base to base.

I agree the S55 has a much higher ceiling. If they do hardware changes in the detune, it will just cost more to get back up there. But if they do just software detune, it will be easy-peasy.

This is all just a numbers game anyway. If you don't do anything to upgrade how the power hits the pavement, 500hp will just help you burn through your rubber faster.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

I am not questioning the tunability of the S55 at all. I was just commenting on the stock to stock comparisons I have seen. Then you throw in the ZCP... which is not the same comparison as the base to base.

I agree the S55 has a much higher ceiling. If they do hardware changes in the detune, it will just cost more to get back up there. But if they do just software detune, it will be easy-peasy.

This is all just a numbers game anyway. If you don't do anything to upgrade how the power hits the pavement, 500hp will just help you burn through your rubber faster.

Don't focus on ZCP or Non-ZCP. M2 put down (in my example) 330-335whp while rated at 365hp and M4 ZCP put down 440whp while rated at 444hp. On paper the difference is 79hp and in real life it's 100whp. My guess in that previous post was that M2C might be putting down 390+whp in real life so the difference between M2C and and an M2 might be more than 40hp.

[Benef1cient]

Mine is getting produced last week of May - one of the last N55 M2s for European market as the production stops for EU end of May. Got confirmation yesterday

Somehow for me it feels more special to own a car that is no longer produced and was the first edition so to speak.

Funny part is that prior my order there were 12 allocations free and my SA told me that after the leak of M2C info they all were gone in few days
Not everybody is happy with the new styling apparently.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by cntzl

Don't focus on ZCP or Non-ZCP. M2 put down (in my example) 330-335whp while rated at 365hp and M4 ZCP put down 440whp while rated at 444hp. On paper the difference is 79hp and in real life it's 100whp. My guess in that previous post was that M2C might be putting down 390+whp in real life so the difference between M2C and and an M2 might be more than 40hp.

M4 ZCP has a boost in tune and a performance exhaust from the regular M4. My understanding was that the M2C will have something more like the regular M4 exhaust (plus particulate filter) and will be tuned down from the regular M4 output. So the regular M3/M4 dyno is more comparable to what you might expect with the M2C... and the regular M3 dyno I found was ~50hp higher than the current M2 (see here). Granted I have seen lower dyno numbers for the M2... but not with a same day comparison with an M3 or M4. Perhaps you have some to show.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

M4 ZCP has a boost in tune and a performance exhaust from the regular M4. My understanding was that the M2C will have something more like the regular M4 exhaust (plus particulate filter) and will be tuned down from the regular M4 output. So the regular M3/M4 dyno is more comparable to what you might expect with the M2C... and the regular M3 dyno I found was ~50hp higher than the current M2 (see here). Granted I have seen lower dyno numbers for the M2... but not with a same day comparison with an M3 or M4. Perhaps you have some to show.

M4 ZCP doesn't have any special performance exhaust over base M4. It's called sport exhaust due to slightly different muffler design just for the sound. Even M Performance Exhaust, which I have one my car, gives nothing in terms of extra HP or torque. M2C's exhaust will be much closer to the standart M3/M4 ZCP exhaust than base M3/M4. If you listen to the the sound clips, you can tell it sounds just like the stock M3/M4 ZCP. The dyno day I mentioned was from couple months ago and it was for our local M community. I didn't dyno my car but just witnessed the results so don't have anything to show. However, if any stock M2 local to me is down, I would be more than happy to do a side by side dyno at anyone's preferred place. I'm also curious about this particulate filter that you mentioned. I wonder if it will be something that affects power output and if it'll be on US cars as well. An aftermarket exhaust would solve that problem but just curious...

[GregoryK]

N55 vs S55
What the max for the N55 - 450hp
What is the Max for the S55 - 700hp?
https://www.***********.com/content....sepower-record.
The S55 is a potential beast of an engine. Like cntzl says marketing is the only reason it is 405HP

[Transfer]

I'm the OP for this thread and want to weigh in again.

I went back to my M roots and bought a low miles 2012 E92 M3 ZCP about a month ago. This is a car that is on paper quite similar to M2 in measure, being fractionally slower and fractionally less handling chops. I am very very pleased with my car. I went this direction due to cost ($20k less than new M2) and engine characteristics. It is a FAST car and has adequate torque albeit less than M2. If the N55 M2 is marginally different in power, and that is my experience on test drives, I have no need for an S55 other than stupid speed. E92 M3 has about 350 whp and 100-200 lbs more weight than M2 with 335 whp. I expect S55 M2 will have near 400 whp.

The N55 M2 is the better choice for those of us who don't need/want crazy speed and are buying a car for the emotion and characteristics of it. It's a beautiful M car and has the soul that makes it a winner. That's why I bought my E92 and that's why I'll likely buy an M2 LCI in the future.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by GregoryK

N55 vs S55
What the max for the N55 - 450hp
What is the Max for the S55 - 700hp?
https://www.***********.com/content....sepower-record.
The S55 is a potential beast of an engine. Like cntzl says marketing is the only reason it is 405HP

Yup... S55 is bulletproof with a high ceiling.

I still think flash tuning it down to 405hp with no hardware changes will make M Division look really stupid when there are a troop of them running round with 500hp (for only a few hundred dollars) within days of the M2C beginning delivery. M4 owners or potential owners will not be impressed.

May be more than just marketing relative to the M4. May be because they need to meet emissions regs at POS, and the detune gives them that.

[AlpsRider]

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

Yup... S55 is bulletproof with a high ceiling.

I still think flash tuning it down to 405hp with no hardware changes will make M Division look really stupid when there are a troop of them running round with 500hp (for only a few hundred dollars) within days of the M2C beginning delivery. M4 owners or potential owners will not be impressed.

May be more than just marketing relative to the M4. May be because they need to meet emissions regs at POS, and the detune gives them that.

I think the new M3 and M4 will come out with some impressive specs and features which will once again put them in the lead.

[GregoryK]

Originally Posted by AlpsRider

I think the new M3 and M4 will come out with some impressive specs and features which will once again put them in the lead.

AWD will set them apart I would think.
Makes so much sense at this point and is another reason to drop the stick shift. They may not be as much fun to drive but they will leave our cars in the dust on a track.

[Transfer]

Originally Posted by GregoryK

AWD will set them apart I would think.
Makes so much sense at this point and is another reason to drop the stick shift. They may not be as much fun to drive but they will leave our cars in the dust on a track.

S58 450 hp/tq with adjustable (and off option) AWD would be killer. I'm sure the price will also be killer though.