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      09-25-2017, 05:37 PM   #23
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bmw is going to be clamping down on aftermarket with the increase in their own performance parts line. Enforcement has always varied from dealer to dealer.

BMW warranty is really only for first owners now. Can't believe they do not assume anymore.
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      09-27-2017, 09:52 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
no no no no no NO wrong wrong wrong WRONG.

...


BMW can deny you warranty work at any time for any reason and your only remedy is to take them to court.
I’m assuming you’re speaking for Canada?

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act protects against this kind of thing in America.
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      09-27-2017, 10:45 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OCfromOC View Post
I’m assuming you’re speaking for Canada?

The Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act protects against this kind of thing in America.
FOR ALL USA MODDERS: THE MOSS-MAGNUSON ACT WILL NOT PROTECT YOU

Practically speaking, no, the MM does not "protect against this kind of thing". This old modders tale MUST DIE.

(1.) The MM Act was not designed nor created to protect modders
That is, modders being people adding extra shit to their car. Rather it was enacted to ensure auto manufacturers couldn't have a parts monopoly via warranty blackmail. This is a subtle but massively important point because, for example, a piggy back is NOT REPLACING A STOCK PART, nor is removing cats. The MM act was created to allow you to replace a stock part with a certified equal stock part. So at best and from the start, trying to use the MM act to defend against warranty denial for a non-certified extra part you added, or a stock part you removed, is a stretch.

(2.) Auto manufacturers can deny warranty work on the spot.
There's no governing body that reviews warranty work denial. The manufacturer (or warranty body) basically says "no fuck off" and that's it. They don't have to prove a thing - the decision is 100% theirs at any time any where they chose. You have nothing to say about that decision nor does anybody else.

(3.) In the USA, the dealer DOES NOT make warranty decisions.
In the USA, the warranty is between you and BMWNA, the dealer is an independent business, not BMW, and has nothing to do with making decisions. Rather the dealers ARE responsible for "discovery", i.e., reporting what they find, and it's here that a "mod friendly" dealer might be helpful. But at the end of the day mod sales and service are chump change compared to the $$$ dealers make selling and providing standard service on BMWs. The dealer isn't going to lie for you unless they're horribly stupid. At best they'll bend the truth, but in large $$ cases BMWNA typically sends an engineer out so it's out of the dealer's hands anyway.

(4.) To invoke the MM act you have to get to court - and that'll take years
2-3 years or longer. If BMWNA denies you warranty work and you think it's not fair, then your only recourse is to sue, and that's going to be very difficult and expensive. This is because BMWNA has lots of lawyers and they will ask for delays and continuances since that's super cheap for them and massively expensive for you. And that's mostly because you have to pay for attorneys if you're not representing yourself and you have to let your car sit idle as it's the evidence in your case.

(5.) Your odds of winning your warranty denial court case are zero.
This is because even if we assume you make it to court - and the judge doesn't immediately reject your claim due to adding extra shit onto your car - BMW will have the engineers who designed the car / engine / software providing reams of expert testimony about why you're a dipshit whereas you will have nothing.

So, no, the MM Act doesn't protect you from adding non-certified parts to your car.

Please stop passing around this bogus information.
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Last edited by GrussGott; 09-27-2017 at 11:07 AM..
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      09-27-2017, 04:18 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
Car manufactures can deny warranty claim for any reason they can think of. They have to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure in a court of law. Are you going to spend thousands of dollars suing BMW against their army of lawyers?
no you may choose NOT to do that but Legally they cannot void your warranty due to the presence of the part on the car< PERIOD!
Sure they can do it and you may not be able to afford to fight them with attorney fees , but that's another story. This is the essence of the Magnusson moss act.
a vehicle manufacturer cannot legally void a vehicle warranty say for example your windshield wipers stop working because you have a burger box on the car or whatever. it has to correlate to the problem component of the vehicle.
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      09-27-2017, 04:50 PM   #27
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Meanwhile over at John Deere(USA)...

Why American Farmers Are Hacking Their Tractors With Ukrainian Firmware...
https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/a...inian-firmware


Quote:
"What you've got is technicians running around here with cracked Ukrainian John Deere software that they bought off the black market"

A license agreement John Deere required farmers to sign in October forbids nearly all repair and modification to farming equipment, and prevents farmers from suing for "crop loss, lost profits, loss of goodwill, loss of use of equipment … arising from the performance or non-performance of any aspect of the software." The agreement applies to anyone who turns the key or otherwise uses a John Deere tractor with embedded software. It means that only John Deere dealerships and "authorized" repair shops can work on newer tractors.

"If a farmer bought the tractor, he should be able to do whatever he wants with it," Kevin Kenney, a farmer and right-to-repair advocate in Nebraska, told me. "You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic—he can put in the new transmission but the tractor can't drive out of the shop. Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part."
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      09-28-2017, 04:30 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by subzero05 View Post
a vehicle manufacturer cannot legally void a vehicle warranty
Dude. This is just flat out wrong: what you wrote is "legally" complete bullshit. You have no idea what you're talking about and you should stop spreading bogus information.

From a person who listens to people like you on the M4 forum:
"so they say i spun the crank hub and because this "BMW district engineer" happened to be there and look at my jb4 that its not eligable for warentee and its going to be $2600 to re time.... what do i do? has anyone else who spun the crank hup had to pay out of pocket? anyone else spun it with jb4 and dealer knew about it and still fixed it?
Yeah. He's since tried to delete everything.

And, yeah, BMW "legally" denied his warranty on the spot without proving shit.

you're wrong.
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      09-28-2017, 08:16 PM   #29
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I don't know what it's like elsewhere but bmw has always worked on my modded cars. Thy only raise an eyebrow if I am reporting a problem directly related to something obviously modified. Dealers get paid form BMW to do the work.
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      09-28-2017, 11:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
I don't know what it's like elsewhere but bmw has always worked on my modded cars. Thy only raise an eyebrow if I am reporting a problem directly related to something obviously modified. Dealers get paid form BMW to do the work.
Right, the BMW dealers are independent businesses not BMWNA, so of course they'll work on your car. They'd work on a honda if you paid them to.

It's when your car parts fail and the dealer is asking BMW to pay for that failed part and service that it gets tricky ... up to a certain point a "mod friendly" dealer will probably not mention mods, but if your car starts getting into major part failures BMW is going to start asking questions, start asking for data, etc. There's an escalation process.

At that point the dealer can either outright lie and fabricate information, or they can tell BMWNA that you're modded. and it's likely, depending on location, the BMWNA will send out an engineer to review the evidence.

If the dealer lies / lied, then they're breaking their contract with BMWNA, so the dealer probably isn't going to lie for you.

And that's when BMWNA will void your warranty without having to prove shit to anyone.
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      09-29-2017, 01:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
I don't know what it's like elsewhere but bmw has always worked on my modded cars. Thy only raise an eyebrow if I am reporting a problem directly related to something obviously modified. Dealers get paid form BMW to do the work.
Right, the BMW dealers are independent businesses not BMWNA, so of course they'll work on your car. They'd work on a honda if you paid them to.

It's when your car parts fail and the dealer is asking BMW to pay for that failed part and service that it gets tricky ... up to a certain point a "mod friendly" dealer will probably not mention mods, but if your car starts getting into major part failures BMW is going to start asking questions, start asking for data, etc. There's an escalation process.

At that point the dealer can either outright lie and fabricate information, or they can tell BMWNA that you're modded. and it's likely, depending on location, the BMWNA will send out an engineer to review the evidence.

If the dealer lies / lied, then they're breaking their contract with BMWNA, so the dealer probably isn't going to lie for you.

And that's when BMWNA will void your warranty without having to prove shit to anyone.
Again - it's up to the dealer.

I have a friend who had a heavily modified e92 who tracked it extensively and his s65 grenaded - BMW replaced the motor under warranty.

It varies per dealer and per case. As an owner of a modified vehicle, I agree you take some risk when you modify your car but there are ways to work around this process and cover your tracks a bit if necessary.

From reading threads like this I alwAys assume the worst but it often ends up being much more forgivable.

I do think now that BMW is pushing their own performance line harder than ever that they will try to threaten other aftermarket as an attempt to steer people toward their own product line which again would support the dealers interest more so than just simply repairing a warranties car.
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      09-29-2017, 03:47 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
Again - it's up to the dealer.

I have a friend who had a heavily modified e92 who tracked it extensively and his s65 grenaded - BMW replaced the motor under warranty.

It varies per dealer and per case.
I'm with you, although it's misleading to say "it's up to the dealer", since the warranty decision is BMWNA's, not the dealer's ... but the dealer does do the discovery, so it is up to them on how they characterize the issue - and there I totally agree with you.

That said, sometimes a BMWNA engineer happens to be at the dealership, or BMWNA decides to ask more questions, or, or, or, and the dealer's hands are tied.

The distinction is important is because some people think, "hey my dealer is mod friendly and everyone's doing JB4s so I'm golden!"

No, you're still taking a big warranty risk, you've just controlled as many variables as you can, one of them being a mod-friendly dealer, but ultimately it's up to BMWNA.
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      09-30-2017, 05:56 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ilikebmxbikes View Post
Again - it's up to the dealer.

I have a friend who had a heavily modified e92 who tracked it extensively and his s65 grenaded - BMW replaced the motor under warranty.
That's because the s65 has a known issue and would have failed regardless of mods. I see this all the time with people saying BMW replaced my turbo on my modded n54... Well the n54 turbos would have gone bad anyway. Along with the HPFP... They are known issues that BMW is prepared to deal with.
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      10-13-2017, 11:03 AM   #34
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BMW Warranty void after Stage 1 Dinan Tune?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cdn240cab View Post
I have not spoken to the other BMW dealership in Calgary, which is owned by the same company, and is a certified Dinan dealer yet, I will update ASAP.
Oh, great. I just got Dynan Tune Stage 1 installed by the BMW dealer in Oakville, Ontario who is also a Dinan dealer. In fact, the BMW dealer had the Dynan parts in stock.

Well, I guess I will find out if my BMW Warranty is void now the next time I take it in for service.

What did the BMW dealer that is also a Dinan dealer in Calgary say?
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      10-13-2017, 03:16 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott
BMW will have the engineers who designed the car / engine / software providing reams of expert testimony about why you're a dipshit whereas you will have nothing.

So, no, the MM Act doesn't protect you from adding non-certified parts to your car.

Please stop passing around this bogus information.
Actually they just need to talk to the wife and a few ex-GFs to get that kind of testimony
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      10-13-2017, 04:24 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter K_B
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdn240cab View Post
I have not spoken to the other BMW dealership in Calgary, which is owned by the same company, and is a certified Dinan dealer yet, I will update ASAP.
Oh, great. I just got Dynan Tune Stage 1 installed by the BMW dealer in Oakville, Ontario who is also a Dinan dealer. In fact, the BMW dealer had the Dynan parts in stock.

Well, I guess I will find out if my BMW Warranty is void now the next time I take it in for service.

What did the BMW dealer that is also a Dinan dealer in Calgary say?
Sorry for the late reply everyone. Calgary BMW, who were the authorized dealer for Dinan products in Calgary, are "cancelling their partnership with Dinan." Calgary BMW reiterated to me that BMW Canada are indeed refusing to warranty vehicles with Dinan products installed, especially focusing on tuning products, which "completely void powertrain warranty." They claim conflict with Dinan over who pays when a warranty concern arises, and therefore are "moving away from that part of the business." For those who are considering purchasing Dinan tuners, especially in Canada, I would exercise caution. Make sure you know what you are getting to. I'm not sure if there is a Dinan representative that could chime in or not to clarify their position as it pertains to Canadian customers.
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      10-18-2017, 02:49 PM   #37
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I can't help but feel that part of the problem is that modders have gradually abandoned the principle that once you mod the car, you are responsible for damages from YOUR actions (when I was first into this, the adage was 'pay to play'). I fear that as more and more people attempt warranty claims on overmodded engines, the backlash will affect all of us. Especially with turbos, where there are simple, cheap, and easily hidden/removed ways to jack up boost; having this available for a few hundred dollars has got to increase the number of modders phenomenally.

I am right there with you that voiding a warranty because somebody took the 'track handling package' out on a track is deceitful BS by the dealerships; ditto for if they void the warranty on the stereo b/c you put in a cold air intake. But trying to argue that FBO status doesn't affect the longevity of the drivetrain is pretty crazy, and expecting BMW to pay for problems seems a bit unfair.
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      04-03-2018, 02:06 PM   #38
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I was also considering the Dinan Elite Stage 1 for my M240 as well and got a similar response from Calgary BMW, the other dealer BMW gallery is not an authorized dealer. The only BMW dealer in Alberta willing to install the Dinan tune and honor the MFG warranty was Edmonton BMW.

However, I spoke BMW Canada corporate and asked them if they still maintained a relationship with Dinan - they still do. However, I was told the following, with Dinan tune installed:

1. Your regular 4 year servicing will not be affected.
2. IF something were to go wrong and the diagnosis is unable to identify what caused the problem - you would be hung out to dry while BMW/Dinan argue over who is paying for what. For Example, BMW will not deny you warranty if something was wrong with the transmission and you installed a Dinan Exhaust.

Last edited by Bobby P; 04-03-2018 at 03:35 PM..
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      04-03-2018, 02:19 PM   #39
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Ah, I was about to get worried as I just ordered the springs/ride handling kit.
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      04-09-2018, 12:13 PM   #40
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The key is to find a mod-friendly dealer.
For instance, my dealer is still a Dinan dealer too. They have never balked at any warranty repair and I've had a Dinan Stage 2 tune (that they installed) for years.
They actually had to replace my manual transmission (done under warranty). If they wanted to be dicks, they could have said that the additional stresses caused by the tune were at fault and refuse to warranty it, but they never blinked an eye, and neither did BMWNA.

Now I can't say that would be the same if I had a self-installed JB4 on it at the time, but I think this dealership is generally mod friendly, so I go to them with confidence. When I get an M2 eventually, I have already spoken to them about a Fabspeed DP, and there was no "you're gonna shoot your eye out with that thing!" My SA just said he doesn't recommend it because it can be a pain to pass emissions sometimes, but nothing about affecting warranty.

Bottom line: it's all about the dealership you choose to use.
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      04-09-2018, 02:49 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavpilot2k View Post
The key is to find a mod-friendly dealer.
For instance, my dealer is still a Dinan dealer too. They have never balked at any warranty repair and I've had a Dinan Stage 2 tune (that they installed) for years.
They actually had to replace my manual transmission (done under warranty). If they wanted to be dicks, they could have said that the additional stresses caused by the tune were at fault and refuse to warranty it, but they never blinked an eye, and neither did BMWNA.

Now I can't say that would be the same if I had a self-installed JB4 on it at the time, but I think this dealership is generally mod friendly, so I go to them with confidence. When I get an M2 eventually, I have already spoken to them about a Fabspeed DP, and there was no "you're gonna shoot your eye out with that thing!" My SA just said he doesn't recommend it because it can be a pain to pass emissions sometimes, but nothing about affecting warranty.

Bottom line: it's all about the dealership you choose to use.
Don't worry about passing emissions with the Fabspeed. Mine passed a couple of months ago at my dealership, also a Dinan dealer.
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      07-04-2018, 07:22 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Right, the BMW dealers are independent businesses not BMWNA, so of course they'll work on your car. They'd work on a honda if you paid them to.

It's when your car parts fail and the dealer is asking BMW to pay for that failed part and service that it gets tricky ... up to a certain point a "mod friendly" dealer will probably not mention mods, but if your car starts getting into major part failures BMW is going to start asking questions, start asking for data, etc. There's an escalation process.

At that point the dealer can either outright lie and fabricate information, or they can tell BMWNA that you're modded. and it's likely, depending on location, the BMWNA will send out an engineer to review the evidence.

If the dealer lies / lied, then they're breaking their contract with BMWNA, so the dealer probably isn't going to lie for you.

And that's when BMWNA will void your warranty without having to prove shit to anyone.
Gruss, your posts are funny as shit and I'm not a a lawyer but would tend to agree with you as to how these issues could play out. In the end, the real dispute I guess would end up with Dinan if something went wrong, then either BMW or Dinan would be obligated to pay as the customer would be holding warranties from both. My guess the first recourse would be to go after Dinan for repayment and let them fight it out with BMW behind the scenes versus going against german engineers.

Another question i have is that these piggy back tunes are easy to remove with what i would guess no traceability. If you had a catastrophic failure, then just remove the tune and bring it in the dealer. If the tune caused the failure, the BMW engineers should see the evidence of such a root cause effect. How would you see this scenario playing out?
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      07-04-2018, 11:11 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ToAgree View Post
Another question i have is that these piggy back tunes are easy to remove with what i would guess no traceability. If you had a catastrophic failure, then just remove the tune and bring it in the dealer. If the tune caused the failure, the BMW engineers should see the evidence of such a root cause effect. How would you see this scenario playing out?
I could be completely wrong but my understanding is that if BMW wants to they can pull the logs on the ECU and it'll show you're running a tune due to overboost conditions, etc.
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      07-04-2018, 11:31 AM   #44
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Quote:
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I could be completely wrong but my understanding is that if BMW wants to they can pull the logs on the ECU and it'll show you're running a tune due to overboost conditions, etc.
Not sure this is the case for a piggy back tune (vs a flash tune)... But not 100%
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