[Poochie]

Originally Posted by chris719

The CS won't perform anywhere near the G87. Just look at how G82 performs compared to F82 CS. On paper the numbers might look similar but in reality the G destroys it. The traction control systems are completely new and higher sampling rate. The engine even more underrated. The Sachs EDC in F87 CS is old tech ca. 2014 carried from F80; the new dampers and controller are much better.

The ring time might look similar but once you put Cup 2 on the G87 vs PS4S it's going to beat it by at least 10 if not 20 seconds.

I'm not going to say it's a better car in all facets, but even the base G87 is going to be another level of performance than all F87s.

The G87's specs are mouth-watering, it exceeds in every avenue, hence the only reason you don't hear anyone really bitching about the projected MSRP but my guess is the sticker is going to be a cool 62k so it looks good in all the Ads and reviews but another 3k will be added for the packages that make the vehicle a rounded M car. So you're spending 65k plus dest. For the vehicle, one way or the other, unless you live with regrets in a base model.

With the specs checking all the boxes and then some, the main issue lies with questionable design language but slowly it will become complacent and accepted. I'm hoping now the LCI might brings by a more constraint rear bumper - one can dream.

Worst case, we'll see the Z4 with a B58 and manual becomes a viable option,I might then just reconsider this vehicle. The Z4 with manual will be like an ultra modern Honda S2000, with a BMW flair, enhance handling and stability, a car that more than likely give the M2 model a run for its money, with all the cross-shoppers like myself.

[ShortSides]

It's a simple straight fact that the F87 is a superior product.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by chris719

The CS won’t perform anywhere near the G87. Just look at how G82 performs compared to F82 CS. On paper the numbers might look similar but in reality the G destroys it. The traction control systems are completely new and higher sampling rate. The engine even more underrated. The Sachs EDC in F87 CS is old tech ca. 2014 carried from F80; the new dampers and controller are much better.

The ring time might look similar but once you put Cup 2 on the G87 vs PS4S it’s going to beat it by at least 10 if not 20 seconds.

I’m not going to say it’s a better car in all facets, but even the base G87 is going to be another level of performance than all F87s.

I don't think that G87 will out perform F87 CS in track times simply because it has the same torque and more weight - the 16hp gain will definitely not overcome the weight gain. In the hands of a competent driver (w/o traction control) and on the same tires and track conditions, I don't see how G87 is going to be faster that F87 CS just based on physics.

The major difference between F8X and G8X is 70 ft/lbs of torque to offset weight (or in the CS case 25ish ft/lbs). Even then, the difference between F82 CS and G82 RWD is 8 seconds with F82 CS on old gen Cup2s and a rougher track.

I also don't really care for the CS moniker, so I'm not saying any of this out of my own self interest lol

[qnet]

I like it ok. I'm the opposite of most in that it's the kidney grills that I don't really like. I wish they had just left them like the M240i. The side profile looks good, I love the seat choices, and engine.

When the F87 M2 came out, I didn't really like the big fangs at the bottom, but got used to it. Having said that, the G87 overall isn't exciting me like the F87 did.

I'd like to see it in more detail with the other colors. Right now, I couldn't see myself trading my LCI M2 in for a G87. I have an emotional attachment to the F87, after all the missteps and journey to getting it at the performance center.

It's nice to see all the excitement over at the G87 forum about it. There will be a new group of people, with older posters chiming in; that love the G87. I thinks that's cool.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

The CS won’t perform anywhere near the G87. Just look at how G82 performs compared to F82 CS. On paper the numbers might look similar but in reality the G destroys it. The traction control systems are completely new and higher sampling rate. The engine even more underrated. The Sachs EDC in F87 CS is old tech ca. 2014 carried from F80; the new dampers and controller are much better.

The ring time might look similar but once you put Cup 2 on the G87 vs PS4S it’s going to beat it by at least 10 if not 20 seconds.

I’m not going to say it’s a better car in all facets, but even the base G87 is going to be another level of performance than all F87s.

The G8X oem PS4S's are soft, I've had a set of the 275/35/19's on back of my M2 and got 50% of the mileage compared to the 3 other sets of generic PS4S's I've had. They would pick up rocks/road debris like tw200 RE71RS/A052 tyres I've used for track, the delta between G8X PS4S & Cup2 won't be like previous gen tyres.

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

I don't think that G87 will out perform F87 CS in track times simply because it has the same torque and more weight - the 16hp gain will definitely not overcome the weight gain. In the hands of a competent driver (w/o traction control) and on the same tires and track conditions, I don't see how G87 is going to be faster that F87 CS just based on physics.

The major difference between F8X and G8X is 70 ft/lbs of torque to offset weight (or in the CS case 25ish ft/lbs). Even then, the difference between F82 CS and G82 RWD is 8 seconds with F82 CS on old gen Cup2s and a rougher track.

I also don't really care for the CS moniker, so I'm not saying any of this out of my own self interest lol

I think you're on the money, many are under appreciating the negative affects of the substantial weight gain. BMW don't have some magic wand to defy the physics of all that extra mass. Once owners start tracking I'm sure we'll see complaints about their semi tyres overheating & wearing quickly. From my experience with the G8 oem PS4S tyre anyone who gets out on twisty roads should be pre-ordering replacement tyres (& I know a guy who also used the 275/35 tyre on back of his Supra & got 10K km).

I expect there will be a bunch who say very few drive the car that hard, well the same could be said then for needing high HP and blistering acceleration 100-200kph etc ?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by RugbyBro

I don't think that G87 will out perform F87 CS in track times simply because it has the same torque and more weight - the 16hp gain will definitely not overcome the weight gain. In the hands of a competent driver (w/o traction control) and on the same tires and track conditions, I don't see how G87 is going to be faster that F87 CS just based on physics.

The major difference between F8X and G8X is 70 ft/lbs of torque to offset weight (or in the CS case 25ish ft/lbs). Even then, the difference between F82 CS and G82 RWD is 8 seconds with F82 CS on old gen Cup2s and a rougher track.

I also don't really care for the CS moniker, so I'm not saying any of this out of my own self interest lol

It's going to be really close on the same tires. The "16 hp gain" will be much more than that in reality when they get put on a dyno. The improved handling characteristics, stability, etc. will swamp the weight gain.

The M2 CS did 7:43 with Cup 2 tires. M2 Comp did it in 7:52. The tires and tune are almost all of that difference.

The G82 M4 Comp does 7:30 with PS4S. Subtract around 6 seconds from that for Cup 2 tires, 2 seconds for weight penalty (AWD auto comp) then add 5 for the M2 power deficit and 10 for loss of AWD. That gets you to an estimated 7:37 for a G87 M2 on Cup 2 tires.

Unfortunately I can't find a legit G8x non-comp ring time.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by chris719

It's going to be really close on the same tires. The "16 hp gain" will be much more than that in reality when they get put on a dyno. The improved handling characteristics, stability, etc. will swamp the weight gain.

The M2 CS did 7:43 with Cup 2 tires. M2 Comp did it in 7:52. The tires and tune are almost all of that difference.

The G82 M4 Comp does 7:30 with PS4S. Subtract around 6 seconds from that for Cup 2 tires, 2 seconds for weight penalty (AWD auto comp) then add 5 for the M2 power deficit and 10 for loss of AWD. That gets you to an estimated 7:37 for a G87 M2 on Cup 2 tires.

Unfortunately I can't find a legit G8x non-comp ring time.

I don’t even think there’s a legit ring time from BMW for anything other than the M4 CSL - we only have SA times

But where I agree with you, and where I think the difference will come from, is the improved damping. More than anything that’s where I think F8X in general is let down, although the CS damping significantly improved the platform. I don’t foresee a major outright speed difference but G87 will probably have an easier time riding curbs at higher speed.

[RugbyBro]

Originally Posted by David.m

The G8X oem PS4S's are soft, I've had a set of the 275/35/19's on back of my M2 and got 50% of the mileage compared to the 3 other sets of generic PS4S's I've had. They would pick up rocks/road debris like tw200 RE71RS/A052 tyres I've used for track, the delta between G8X PS4S & Cup2 won't be like previous gen tyres.



I think you're on the money, many are under appreciating the negative affects of the substantial weight gain. BMW don't have some magic wand to defy the physics of all that extra mass. Once owners start tracking I'm sure we'll see complaints about their semi tyres overheating & wearing quickly. From my experience with the G8 oem PS4S tyre anyone who gets out on twisty roads should be pre-ordering replacement tyres (& I know a guy who also used the 275/35 tyre on back of his Supra & got 10K km).

I expect there will be a bunch who say very few drive the car that hard, well the same could be said then for needing high HP and blistering acceleration 100-200kph etc ?

Yup weight is gonna be a big factor - consumables are going to add up. To me it makes F87 even more attractive as a track option because with a simple tune, better dampers, and tires/pads/fluid, you’ve got an insanely capable track car that’s faster, lighter, easier on consumables, and has an unmatched level of aftermarket support.

Maybe it’s a little sacrilegious to say this but the best dollar-for-dollar new car BMW track platform is the Supra.

[Al Bundy's Dodge]

G87 is the last 6MT ICE M car…I'll be buying one at some point simply because of that.

Until then I will enjoy my F87 because it's the better car

[Davil]

Originally Posted by chris719

It's going to be really close on the same tires. The "16 hp gain" will be much more than that in reality when they get put on a dyno. The improved handling characteristics, stability, etc. will swamp the weight gain.

The M2 CS did 7:43 with Cup 2 tires. M2 Comp did it in 7:52. The tires and tune are almost all of that difference.

The G82 M4 Comp does 7:30 with PS4S. Subtract around 6 seconds from that for Cup 2 tires, 2 seconds for weight penalty (AWD auto comp) then add 5 for the M2 power deficit and 10 for loss of AWD. That gets you to an estimated 7:37 for a G87 M2 on Cup 2 tires.

Unfortunately I can't find a legit G8x non-comp ring time.

Do you spend a lot of time on the Nurburgring?

I don't. I just like a car that's pretty raw and a ton of fun to drive. The G82 I drove is ridiculously capable but not a lot of fun.

I think they've done a great job on the G87. I'm looking forward to having a go in it. I suspect it will be more like G82 than F87 and most people will prefer that.

F87 CS is such a fun drive. It's pretty quick on a bumpy track as the suspension out of the box is so damn good.

Also it's as fast as you'd ever need. 3.4 0-60 and 11.7 quarter at 120mph is moving.

[M2PDX]

Originally Posted by ShortSides

It's a simple straight fact that the F87 is a superior product.

Hmmmm....very interesting. So you are more knowledgeable than the numerous professionals who drove the prototypes at the Salzbergring earlier this summer? Is THAT your fact?

[Robin_NL]

The F87 might be the 'superior' product, but with the G87 you get just 'more' product.

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

I configured the G87 and in the Netherlands it would be about (not even fully loaded)123k € (fully loaded >140k €) , In Belgium(neigbouring country) about <90k € and in Germany(also about one hour driving from where I live) 90k € as well.


I asked my $tealer yesterday: production feb '23, and add 10 weeks to get the damn thing to from Mx to EU/NL.....


Cheers
Robin

[M Fifty]

I have to say, I don't remember there being much 'divided opinion' about the appearance of the F87 when first launched. There were some haters, but they seemed to be M4 owners who suddenly realised how far their cars had strayed from the original concept of M-cars.

[murderspice]

Originally Posted by M Fifty

There were some haters, but they seemed to be M4 owners who suddenly realised how far their cars had strayed from the original concept of M-cars.

This is exactly my reaction to the g87; how in just one generation it went from a relatively pure “m” vehicle — to whatever the m4 has become.

[///M TOWN]

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

Weight gain will swamp the improved handling characteristics, stability, etc.

fixed

[chris719]

Originally Posted by David.m

fixed

But it's not true. The G80 is a very big jump in performance over F80 and the weight gain is even more extreme depending on the configuration. F87 comp with 6MT is about 3600 lbs and the G87 with 6MT and carbon roof appears to be about 3750. I am not talking about fun or feel etc which we can't know yet. Just purely performance.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

But it's not true. The G80 is a very big jump in performance over F80 and the weight gain is even more extreme depending on the configuration. F87 comp with 6MT is about 3600 lbs and the G87 with 6MT and carbon roof appears to be about 3750. I am not talking about fun or feel etc which we can't know yet. Just purely performance.

Didn't think the M2C 6MT was that heavy? G87 kerb weight for 6MT is quoted as 3814, cf roof will save around 15lb?
Being generous to the G87 the weight gain would be 220lb+. Yes BMW have done their best to make the heavier car handle well but there isn't any change of note to suspension design/layout (eg the new GT3 going to wishbones at front).

To manage the forces of that extra mass in cornering/braking they've gone to bigger & softer/stickier tyres, truth is there's little else they could do. Doesn't make it a better performer.

We don't know the G87's weight distribution (OG was 49/51 with M2C a little worse) but the longer wheel base may make it easier to handle when exceeding limits of traction, same with changes to traction control, but neither necessarily make it a better performer.

When you look at the time/money/effort that many genuine performance enthusiasts put into pulling a few kg's of weight out of their cars it's bewildering the lack of concern there is for this enormous weight gain (though I expect those enthusiasts won't be happy with the weight).

Forums/FB have had so much said about the N55 in OG, seats/mirrors/styling, the M2C being a 'real' ///M car etc. Now people are raving about the S58 but the styling is polarising (I don't mind it except for the rear bumper) but very few seem worried about carrying all those extra kg's.
Guess it's an indication that these days a significant portion of the market is more concerned with 0-60 and styling

[chris719]

Originally Posted by David.m

Didn't think the M2C 6MT was that heavy? G87 kerb weight for 6MT is quoted as 3814, cf roof will save around 15lb?
Being generous to the G87 the weight gain would be 220lb+. Yes BMW have done their best to make the heavier car handle well but there isn't any change of note to suspension design/layout (eg the new GT3 going to wishbones at front).

To manage the forces of that extra mass in cornering/braking they've gone to bigger & softer/stickier tyres, truth is there's little else they could do. Doesn't make it a better performer.

We don't know the G87's weight distribution (OG was 49/51 with M2C a little worse) but the longer wheel base may make it easier to handle when exceeding limits of traction, same with changes to traction control, but neither necessarily make it a better performer.

When you look at the time/money/effort that many genuine performance enthusiasts put into pulling a few kg's of weight out of their cars it's bewildering the lack of concern there is for this enormous weight gain (though I expect those enthusiasts won't be happy with the weight).

Forums/FB have had so much said about the N55 in OG, seats/mirrors/styling, the M2C being a 'real' ///M car etc. Now people are raving about the S58 but the styling is polarising (I don't mind it except for the rear bumper) but very few seem worried about carrying all those extra kg's.
Guess it's an indication that these days a significant portion of the market is more concerned with 0-60 and styling

I own an M2C, but I'm being objective here. The G87 is going to have much better suspension damping and the car is going to perform quite a bit better. We can do paper exercises but the numbers will tell the story once it's reviewed. A 200 lb difference in weight is not ideal but once you are already this heavy it's not really a huge problem. There are cars that weigh 300+ lbs more and have better objective performance.

Not once has BMW failed to launch an M car that didn't outperform its predecessor (excluding CSL / GTS). They might not be as fun or light or whatever but they always outperform their predecessor.

[David.m]

Originally Posted by chris719

I own an M2C, but I'm being objective here. The G87 is going to have much better suspension damping and the car is going to perform quite a bit better. We can do paper exercises but the numbers will tell the story once it's reviewed. A 200 lb difference in weight is not ideal but once you are already this heavy it's not really a huge problem. There are cars that weigh 300+ lbs more and have better objective performance.

Not once has BMW failed to launch an M car that didn't outperform its predecessor (excluding CSL / GTS). They might not be as fun or light or whatever but they always outperform their predecessor.

I guess in part it comes down to the standards by which we measure performance. Having a focus on weight isn't a paper exercise, it affects every aspect of a cars performance. The 300lb heavier car you say performs objectively better would be significantly better again if 300lb lighter.

I guess the G series weight is due to chassis prep required for a hybrid (safely house batteries etc), it's the future of mass produced cars. Doesn't mean we just pretend that Newton's Laws of Motion no longer apply.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by David.m

I guess in part it comes down to the standards by which we measure performance. Having a focus on weight isn't a paper exercise, it affects every aspect of a cars performance. The 300lb heavier car you say performs objectively better would be significantly better again if 300lb lighter.

I guess the G series weight is due to chassis prep required for a hybrid (safely house batteries etc), it's the future of mass produced cars. Doesn't mean we just pretend that Newton's Laws of Motion no longer apply.

Please, let's not pretend that this is some kind of lightweight car already. Performance measured by the standard metrics: lap times, acceleration, braking. There are plenty of cars that are heavier than an F87 M2 that outperform it by all objective metrics. Subjective feel or preference is something else entirely.

Of course a lighter car all else equal is preferable, but it's never the case that all other things are equal. Engineering is an optimization problem and you often trading off one parameter for another.

You're really making this more complicated than it needs to be to defend an indefensible position. The E92 M3 weighs much more than the E46 M3, but there is not a single performance metric that is in favor of the E46 M3. Period. Same thing for the 1M vs M2. The M2 performs better in every measurable aspect but it's a heavier car.