03-10-2017, 02:18 PM | #1 |
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Hello, I am the happy owner of a great black M2. It is my daily car but I intend to track 3-4x this year. I understand that keeping the OEM brake pads will kill the oem rotors. I am looking for a solution to ensure a proper braking during my track days and avoid killing the oem rotors too quickly. I have a 3 years warranty on the car that I do not want to lose, and I do not have the time to go every month to my dealer for technical interventions.
I was considering getting brake pads (exact type TBD) with brake lines (Goodridge ?), and replace the pads by myself (I used to do it on my motorbike) before/after every track session. I have checked several posts and also posted several threads with specific questions around brakes today and also called my (non BMW) dealer who regularly race cars... and now I am a bit lost to be honest ! According to my dealer : - a good driver does not use brakes (he seems to brake very hard but during a short time) => according to that idea, it is not necessary to get race pads or brake lines - installing race brake pads will wear out the rotors very fast - there are no sensors on race pads and therefore an update of the IT system of the car is required when I put the oem pads back - installing non BMW race pads or brake lines will be a good reason to lose the warranty in case of issue - I should replace the brake fluid after every track session - cutting some lines in the oem brake pads are a good way to ventilate them and avoid issues with the rotors ... but same issue with BMW warranty in case of issue Now I wonder whether I should invest - in race pads (which ones will allow me to prevent the rotors from issues or early wear out), and if I'll need to program the car every time - in brake lines (Goodridge ?) - in brake fluid (which one for mix daily/track use ?) - in cooling ducts (instead of pads / lines) ? - only in BMW Performance parts or other brands (Goodridge, Endless, Pagid, etc) - ... or in a braking coaching ;-) => What do you think ? Thx for your advice :-) NB - sorry if I have created several threads today, I will fwd the discussion to this one Last edited by OLO-M2; 03-10-2017 at 02:31 PM.. |
03-13-2017, 04:50 PM | #2 |
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Very big topics, you will get a wide variety of feedback. As you have mentioned, there are numerous other posts with the same questions being asked. Below is some feedback based on my own experience.
First, the OEM brakes are beyond your current driving capability. Pads are killed by rotors, not the other way around, from an OEM perspective. Your braking technique is what will ultimately determine the longevity of your brakes! According to my dealer : - Stop talking "track talk" to this guy! Find a local performance shop in your area that work/track BMWs. - a good driver does not use brakes - Yes and no, I good drive knows how to brake properly. (he seems to brake very hard but during a short time) - Absolutely correct, generally speaking. => according to that idea, it is not necessary to get race pads or brake lines - Correct! Again, I think you should do your first track day or two with OEM parts, etc. - installing race brake pads will wear out the rotors very fast - Yes, faster than OEM pads, and how you brake. - there are no sensors on race pads and therefore an update of the IT system of the car is required when I put the oem pads back - Pad sensors do fit into non OEM pads on most BMWs, cannot say yet for the M2. - installing non BMW race pads or brake lines will be a good reason to lose the warranty in case of issue - Warranty on pads and rotors only. Don't worry about it. - I should replace the brake fluid after every track session - Complete waste! - cutting some lines in the oem brake pads are a good way to ventilate them and avoid issues with the rotors ... but same issue with BMW warranty in case of issue - Complete BS, do not attempt to do such a thing! Now I wonder whether I should invest - in race pads (which ones will allow me to prevent the rotors from issues or early wear out), and if I'll need to program the car every time - I am a fan of Pagid RS19/29s. Again, brake longevity is something the drivers technique plays a big part of. - in brake lines (Goodridge ?) - Goodridge PTFE are great! - in brake fluid (which one for mix daily/track use ?) - Castrol SRF - in cooling ducts (instead of pads / lines) ? - No need at all! - only in BMW Performance parts or other brands (Goodridge, Endless, Pagid, etc) - ... or in a braking coaching ;-) - I am interesting in the MP pads myself. If you were to completely have all bases covered you might do this. I would not do anything else, right now. -new set of OEM rotors -aftermarket pads (ie Pagid) -aftermarket brake fluid -SS brake lines Put your original rotors and pads back on for street driving and use the second set only for use with the after market pads. This will keep the materials from causing unwanted vibration, etc., it is just the best way to go if you can swing the investment. For me, I am going to my first track day completely OEM. Changes will come later after I feel how good everything works as is. I am approx. one event away from graduating the Instructor Academy with the BMW CCA NCC.
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03-13-2017, 05:08 PM | #3 |
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Don't talk to your dealer about tracking a car. The idea that a good driver doesn't use their brakes is the opposite of what any professional driver instructor would tell you. Braking technique is one of the most important skills you learn in a driving school. The idea is to break efficiently which requires high performance brakes and excellent technique so you can carry more speed through the corners and get back to accelerating earlier that the other guy. I am no expert on setting up a track car but I can tell you the dealer doesn't know what he is talking about.
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03-13-2017, 06:00 PM | #4 |
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I agree with isJoey and Pruettfan, talking to the dealer about tracking the car is not always the best idea. It might have them talking. Especially, if they see your car in the shop for some issues that could be caused by tracking the car, they might try to avoid paying for some warranty issues if they know you have tracked the car before.
In addition to that, if you are okay with taking the car on track, you have to be somewhat okay with the fact of voiding the warranty. Anything can happen on track and that is a risk we all take. Although our BMWs are designed to hold up on track they are not solely designed for that purpose. There is a lot of forces on the car especially the brakes. I would recommend what isJoey said. Try your first one or two track days with all original equipment first to get used to the car and its capabilities in stock form. Once you feel comfortable and confident, step up your brakes and tires. Best things about brakes and tires, everything is reversible. If you want new SS brake lines and pads, they are easy to go back to stock if need be for a warranty claim. Same with tires, just swap them on and off. There are many different manufactures for pads. Even though BMW performance offers more aggressive pads over stock, they can still be somewhat conservative. Search the forums for what others like on their M2. Understand that rotors are not items covered under warranty, as isJoey said, so if you wear them out you will have to invest in new ones either way. Often, aftermarket rotors hold up better then OEM rotors because they are made of better metals and designed to dissipate heat more efficiently then stock rotors. Enjoy your new M2! |
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03-14-2017, 02:33 AM | #5 |
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Correct on all accounts. I started tracking cars on oem brakes and stock all season tires. It will take a bit to overcome them if this is your first rodeo. This car does have high perf tires, but even then your oem brake setup should be fine.
Also, your dealer sounds like a moron. |
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03-14-2017, 03:53 AM | #6 |
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Hi all,
Thanks to have revived my thread ;-) Indeed a bit long, sorry ! I started with separate threads and then realized that all topics are inter-dependent.... Thanks for your good advice. Somme clarifications : - the dealer I mentioned is not the BMW dealer, but passionate specialist who regularly races Porsches & also a prepared Mini JCW. I think he knows what he is talking about, athough he does not know the M2 specifically and is certainly influenced by his own experience ;-) - His advise was also to go on track the 1st time with full oem and then adapt depending on the reaction of the car and of my own driving style - I could live with the idea of racing with oem initially, but I have read several posts stating that they destroyed their M2 rotors or faded the brakes before the end of the 1st day, so I do not want to take that risk. In addition I have already booked 3 track days this year, so it is worth investing a little in pads & fluid. I went on track last year with my Porsche 996 Turbo and "lost" my brakes after my 3rd run, so this is a real concern for me nd2002, do you refer to the M2 (oem brakes & tires) specifically ? The idea of buying specific rotors is a good one indeed. Will avoid using pads and rotors with different wear profiles. Was also recommended to me yesterday night by a brake expert. I will attend the BMW Intensive M training but it will only be in October so I also consider investing now a few €€€ in a karting session with a coach to learn breaking before my 1st track day with the M2 ;-) |
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03-22-2017, 01:45 PM | #7 |
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My rule for fluids is:
Flush Brake fluid after the 4th weekend MAX or annually. Some years making it to 5 is a challenge for me. Change oil/filter after every track weekend. Overkill?? saved me when I was tracking 911's and they hold 12 quarts. Flush everything annually regardless. I don't DD my car much. I leave the Pagid 29's on. They scream at you on the street. You don't want to mix pads on the same rotors, as mentioned previously. The threshold braking advice the BMW wrench gave you is fairly accurate. You think easing into the brakes is better for them but it increases temps everywhere. Find your braking point, get on and get off. With ABS, threshold braking techniques are kind of a thing of the past. Enjoy and be safe. An over maintained car on a track is always better than the opposite. |
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03-22-2017, 05:50 PM | #8 |
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My personal experience with track driving a BMW M and brakes…
I can call myself a “somewhat” experienced track driver (Nurburgring). I do around 8 - 10 trackdays a year (mostly Nurburgring). I have driven Zolder, Spa, Ecuyers and + 250 laps on the Nurburgring the last couple of years. I have a MY 2006 Z4M + MY 20017 M2. My Z4M is equipped with CSL wheels, Bilstein PSS-10 suspension and AP racing BBK. My Z4M was a dual purpose street + track car. My brake set up for street and track on the Z4M are AP racing brakes (AP callipers, AP rotors, AP bell, etc) and always with Pagid pads (I tested a lot of different Pagid compounds over the years). The brake oil in my Z4M is ATE Blue racing (now ATE TYPE 200) with steel brake linings. Personally I never had any issues with driving Pagid pads (RS-14 / RS-29 / RS4-4) on the street. I also never had any issues with switching between my Pagids pads and my street pads from AP (the pads originally delivered with my AP BBK). They only needed some bedding in after fitting them again and worked perfect. The AP street pads are death silent, the Pagid pads will always squeal like a pig. I never had any issues with the steel brake linings and with ATE Blue racing brake oil. I change the brake oil every two years on my Z4M and the car braked good and safe from the first day till the last day with this brake oil. ATE Blue racing oil is now ATE Type 200. My braking style on track is short and hard braking….my cornering style is slow in fast out…. My track buddy who drives a Z4M coupe with standard BMW brakes, but also steel linings, same Pagid pads and the same ATE Blue racing brake oil did exactly the same thing as me. Meaning; driving on the street with Pagid pads + changing the ATE brake oil every two years. He also never had any issues on this department. In the end he also upgraded to AP BBK; because braking force, brake modulation and general fade resistance is way better with AP BBK then with the standard Z4M brakes (= same brakes as M3 CSL). But we are not talking Z4M here and we are not talking AP BBK here…so what are my plans with braking on my M2 for track duty (Nurburgring). I will keep my brakes mostly standard M2 (callipers, rotors). Again I will change the brake oil to ATE Type 200. I will change this oil every year (instead of every two years on my Z4M). Every year; because the M2 is a heavier car them my Z4M and the standard M2 brakes will have a heavier and hotter life then the AP brakes on my Z4M. I’m also going to fit steel brake linings and for the choice of pads I went with Endless ME-20. After all my years driving with Pagid track pads I wanted to test something different. I have only read good thing about ME-20 and heard also great things about these pads from people driving their M2 on the ring. They suppose to be rather silent on the street (I hope so) and are not to aggressive for the rotors (discs). Time will tell and the track <-> street test will start next month. Will report back!
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03-22-2017, 07:33 PM | #10 |
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All great advise. Race cars do not use factory pads/fluids for a reason...they fade and fail on track. You should start on factory equipment, but keep an eye on pad wear and if you feel any fade , call it a day. I have 200+ track days and about 12 on my M2. First thing I did was SS lines, high temp fluid and Carbotech pads...the brakes are flawless and can take a beating. I bleed them after every event. Driving style, skill and track choice can effect brake needs greatly, but better to over prepare your car, By the way, good drivers use the hell out of their brakes!!!
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03-22-2017, 10:40 PM | #11 | |
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Quote:
My point about the M2 having summer tires as standard was that even though summer tires stress brakes more than lower-grip tires, if it's your first event or so, your driving abilities may not be greater than the car's limits. However, it seems you have tracked before, so fluid and pads may be a good thing to have, as every other post has advised Good luck out there! |
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04-05-2017, 01:53 AM | #13 |
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In the meantime I have installed Ferodo DS2500. Haven't tried them on tracks but already notice a better feeling and more aggressive biting. Not to noisy although they occasionally whistle (haven't noticed yet when/why exactly)...
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04-16-2017, 10:44 PM | #14 | |
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I'm in the same boat, looking to upgrade pads while keeping stock rotors/calipers w/Castrol SRF and SS lines. Just getting started looking into pads. My M2 is also DD, so my preference would be to just get a decent track pad that does *not* squeal like a pig on the street! |
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04-17-2017, 07:36 AM | #15 | |
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Check my You Tube for some M2 track movies and you can hear the brakes: https://www.youtube.com/user/MisterZ...view=0&sort=dd My impressions after driving 10 laps on The Nurburgring with my M2: http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1375049
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04-17-2017, 08:48 AM | #16 |
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Yeah I saw that other thread, didn't realize it was you until now. Definitely a lot of squeal on the track with those pads, more than I would have expected.
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04-17-2017, 09:32 AM | #17 |
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You probably also saw my report on DS2500 on track : good, no impact on rotors, but could bite more according to me.
Am going to test Pagid RS29 or the Endless if Franzino offers a good price ;-) in a few weeks... |
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04-17-2017, 10:35 AM | #18 |
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DS2500 is only appropriate for light track work. Probably a near sideways move compared to stock.
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04-18-2017, 04:26 PM | #21 |
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In the meantime I wonder whether my discs are actually still OK. I've noticed some roooooor noise (vibrations?) when I brake... ;-(
Those of you who destroyed their rotors with the oem pads on track, could you please describe the effects / noise that you noticed ? Thx... |
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04-19-2017, 01:46 PM | #22 |
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The issue with pads and break fluid is heat. The OEM pads are not designed for the heat generated by repeated threshold breaking from high speeds. Once you are breaking correctly the pads will eventually crumble as you are generating too much heat. It shouldn't be a problem the first day or two but as you get faster and your technique improves you will need to go to track pads. They have a lot of different properties so I suggest listening to folks in the know and experiment a bit. The are differences in the way they bite, release, how linear they are, how long they last, how dusty, how loud, etc.
Break fluid is hydroscopic and as it absorbs moisture it boils at a lower temp. As it boils air bubbles form in the line and make the pedal mushy. So you want fluid with a higher boiling point than stick. I'm sure there is a thread on wet/dry boiling points of various fluids. I think Castrol has the highest but you pay for it. Others are acceptable too. You do need to chAnge the fluid as it absorbs water but not after every weekend but you should probably bleed the lines. Start w/OEM tires. They will squeal more and indicate when you are nearing the limits of adhesion. As you get better switch to better tires. They are stickier and you will go faster but they are quieter so the feedback while there is less obvious at first. Most importantly, recognize that you, not the OEM car, is the bottleneck to going faster. Start considering upgrading when the OEM parts are creating the bottleneck, not you. Pads and fluids will be the first as the heat will cause break fade and you'll need to upgrade pretty soon. Then tires. Then possibly some suspension bits. But since the car is so capable out of the box, getting coilovers is likely a step too far unless you are really unhappy with the street experience and want something more compliant that can be notched up for the track - Ohlins for example. That choice depends a lot on personal preference, the ratio of track to street, and how much harshness and noise you can put up with on the street. |
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