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      06-21-2017, 01:44 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aronis View Post
I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike
Of course I bought my BMW for the manual transmission. Of course I bought it for its manual seats !


PS.. Fixed your comment above.
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      06-21-2017, 08:09 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aronis View Post
I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike
I didn't buy the M2 just for the transmission. But I can tell you I wouldn't have bought an M2 if it only came in DCT.
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      06-21-2017, 12:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by akkando View Post
What are all you MT guys going to do when they don't make the MT anymore? Just no longer buy cars?
Buy an older M car, spend some money to rebuild it, still cheaper than new car
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      06-21-2017, 12:29 PM   #70
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Manual transmission was the number one priority for me with this car. I would've paid extra for the manual if the DCT was standard and the manual was an add on (extra cost) option.
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      06-21-2017, 03:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M2taz View Post
I think M2 DCT sales are partially as high as they are because that's all dealers order by default. Just by looking at some of the response will show this. Porsche is bringing back manuals for a reason, there's demand for them. Add me to the list of people who wouldn't have considered the M2 if there weren't a manual option, it was number two on my requirements for this purchase. A rear sear was number one actually since I have kids, as a reference.
Identical for me.

First on a list for an M2 CS but will be passing if it's DCT only.
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      06-21-2017, 03:55 PM   #72
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I just got my 6MT M2. I am not sure I would have purchased it if it was DCT only. I hope BMW still provides an MT option for their cars, particularly the M cars.
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      06-21-2017, 10:38 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieselino View Post
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Originally Posted by pissclams View Post
Because people don't buy manual transmission vehicles.
Less than 5% of vehicles sold are MT. Believe it or not, the MT enthusiasts on this message board make up a very small sliver of the car buying public. Couple that with the fact that almost every measurable would dictate that DCTs are better than MT- emissions, gas mileage, shift time, they all favor the DCT and you have your answer.
Exactly what he said. The reason manuals are going away is because no one buys them! USA is one the only reason manual M cars exist. USA is one of the biggest markets for M cars but even in the USA, majority of cars ordered are not manuals.
I don't get comments like the two above. Obviously the majority of cars sold to the public are automatic. But we are not talking about ALL cars we are talking about high performance cars. What percentage of cars sold overall are performance cars? I'd wager it's a small number and those are the cars we enthusiasts believe should offer manuals. Who gives a shit about minivans, family SUVs and rental cars being automatics and representing 95% of auto sales? These are the justifications of DCT lovers. For those who don't get it understand this; as long as there are performance car enthusiasts there will be a strong market for manual transmissions in PERFORMANCE cars. If a manufacturer is stupid enough to stop offering what's demanded by the market that market will migrate elsewhere, namely Porsche. I hope that's crystal clear to people who like automatic performance cars.
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      06-21-2017, 10:43 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aronis View Post
I'm not buying that "I won't buy a BMW if they don't offer Manual" BS. You did not buy a BMW for just the transmission!

You'll be drooling over the 2020 M-whatever with SELF drive and CVT transmission either way.


Mike
Nice assumption but so wrong. So so wrong. So long as there is a used car market we enthusiasts can avoid that Frankenstein you described.
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      06-22-2017, 07:51 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gds52 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by akkando View Post
What are all you MT guys going to do when they don't make the MT anymore? Just no longer buy cars?
Buy an older M car, spend some money to rebuild it, still cheaper than new car
Back to basics !
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      06-22-2017, 09:06 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I don't get comments like the two above. Obviously the majority of cars sold to the public are automatic. But we are not talking about ALL cars we are talking about high performance cars. What percentage of cars sold overall are performance cars? I'd wager it's a small number and those are the cars we enthusiasts believe should offer manuals. Who gives a shit about minivans, family SUVs and rental cars being automatics and representing 95% of auto sales? These are the justifications of DCT lovers. For those who don't get it understand this; as long as there are performance car enthusiasts there will be a strong market for manual transmissions in PERFORMANCE cars. If a manufacturer is stupid enough to stop offering what's demanded by the market that market will migrate elsewhere, namely Porsche. I hope that's crystal clear to people who like automatic performance cars.
I think I understand your point. Your argument is that a small number of the cars BMW sells are what you're calling "performance cars". And we know that within that category, the majority of the cars BMW sells are DCT. And yet still- as a company BMW should do what makes less sense financially and continue to cater to a tiny subset of their buyers because of a non-measurable "connected feeling" you get when driving a MT?

To your own admission, the market potentially leaving BMW is a small one, and it's getting smaller each day. At some point, the loss in margin with that small market leaving will be outweighed by the savings gained by only supporting one transmission. We may already be there, but BMW has to do what's best for its shareholders.

And by the way, if you don't think that these same discussions are being held in Stuttgart, you'd be mistaken.

Last edited by pissclams; 06-22-2017 at 11:06 AM..
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      06-22-2017, 09:52 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustChris View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by M2taz View Post
I think M2 DCT sales are partially as high as they are because that's all dealers order by default. Just by looking at some of the response will show this. Porsche is bringing back manuals for a reason, there's demand for them. Add me to the list of people who wouldn't have considered the M2 if there weren't a manual option, it was number two on my requirements for this purchase. A rear sear was number one actually since I have kids, as a reference.
Identical for me.

First on a list for an M2 CS but will be passing if it's DCT only.
I hope you are in front of me at my dealer. Lol
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      06-22-2017, 10:33 AM   #78
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Nice assumption but so wrong. So so wrong. So long as there is a used car market we enthusiasts can avoid that Frankenstein you described.
LOL.....

All in jest dude.....
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      06-22-2017, 10:37 AM   #79
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What about antilock brakes and traction control? Torque Vectoring? Limited Slip Differentials?

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      06-22-2017, 10:39 AM   #80
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So why all the arguments about manuals vs. DCTs for performance cars? Isn't it just a matter of personal preference? Clearly, the manufacturers of performance cars think DCTs are faster in most cases than their own manuals. Clearly these same manufacturers offer manuals for customers who feel they are more involving and fun to drive. And clearly the majority of performance car buyers are saying they don't want to shift anymore.

I've owned more than 40 cars with manual transmissions, and there's nothing more orgasmic than executing a perfect 3-2 downshift. But for my next purchase, I want to explore the technology of a DCT - when I'm not driving the car with the 6-speed manual sitting next to it in my garage. What's wrong with that?
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      06-22-2017, 10:50 AM   #81
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I was thinking about posting a similar question, but it looks like there is still a small gang of people who think a clutch pedal is vital which answers my question. I really can't believe people think a modern car that has auto/electronic/fake everything suits an archaic transmission. Why would you put a huge bottleneck in a high tech sports car, especially when the DCT is better in all other ways too. I just don't get it. The M2 was the first non manual car I have ever had, and I chose that so I would have the quickest version of it. If you want this "emotional connection" that you hear people go on about, surely you would buy a car with manual everything so it really is just you in control, and not the traction control and that M diff.

I have older performance cars with no driver aids and I love driving them. I love driving the M2 as well, but there is nothing comparable to a proper sports car from when DCTs weren't an option. The M2 does so much itself, including fake noise through the speakers and exhaust I don't like, but it would be no where near the experience of a proper manual car if it didn't have the DCT. It is like the difference between a surgeon's scalpel and a sledge hammer, they are both very effective but in very different ways. For me, the proper feel of a performance car was lost when the steering went electric so holding onto the rest is pointless. People need to move with the times, and just accept these changes. Or run an older car instead, have one along side your next auto M car. Here in the UK, I think it is about 95% DCT on the M4. Says it all really.
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      06-22-2017, 10:50 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
....there's nothing more orgasmic than executing a perfect 3-2 downshift.
Exactly.... buy a DCT and drive it in manual 'flappy paddle mode'
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      06-22-2017, 10:55 AM   #83
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I get that MT cars make up a small percentage of overall automobile sales, I get that from a business/profitability standpoint it doesn't make sense for many automakers to continue offering manuals (because if it did they'd still be making them - that's just common sense), and I get that in the not too distant future a MT may no longer even be an option for new cars. I've accepted the reality that we live in.

However, right now, if the M2 did not come with a MT, I would not have gotten it. Why? Because to me a MT is more fun (even if it is slower and represents yesterday's technology) and in 2017 I still have the option of getting a MT. If the M2 was DCT only, I would have purchased a Cayman or Cayman S - yes even with the 4 cylinder.

I completely respect those who favor DCT as well, and I can understand their position. I believe it should be possible to understand and respect both sides of this argument, even if one strongly prefers one over the other. No need to bash the other side.

Last edited by IS+1; 06-22-2017 at 11:03 AM..
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      06-22-2017, 11:32 AM   #84
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I think the companies who do manufacture the transmission for the auto industry do pretty high volume over all. Perhaps having a zillion different transmission choices for each car manufacturer is not cost effective, but sharing the same transmission among many cars would be cost effective. It's not like they are making 5 manual transmission and 50 million automatics. So I think it comes down to actual customer preference and believe BMW will still offer a manual as long as people are buying them. And from what I have seen here and elsewhere, the desire for a manual transmission is not dead.

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      06-22-2017, 11:36 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pissclams View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by m34m View Post
I don't get comments like the two above. Obviously the majority of cars sold to the public are automatic. But we are not talking about ALL cars we are talking about high performance cars. What percentage of cars sold overall are performance cars? I'd wager it's a small number and those are the cars we enthusiasts believe should offer manuals. Who gives a shit about minivans, family SUVs and rental cars being automatics and representing 95% of auto sales? These are the justifications of DCT lovers. For those who don't get it understand this; as long as there are performance car enthusiasts there will be a strong market for manual transmissions in PERFORMANCE cars. If a manufacturer is stupid enough to stop offering what's demanded by the market that market will migrate elsewhere, namely Porsche. I hope that's crystal clear to people who like automatic performance cars.
I think I understand your point. Your argument is that a small number of the cars BMW sells are what you're calling "performance cars". And we know that within that category, the majority of the cars BMW sells are DCT. And yet still- as a company BMW should do what makes less sense financially and continue to cater to a tiny subset of their buyers because of a non-measurable "connected feeling" you get when driving a MT?

To your own admission, the market potentially leaving BMW is a small one, and it's getting smaller each day. At some point, the loss in margin with that small market leaving will be outweighed by the savings gained by only supporting one transmission. We may already be there, but BMW has to do what's best for its shareholders.

And by the way, if you don't think that these same discussions are being held in Stuttgart, you'd be mistaken.
No I don't think you do understand my point. Thanks for the financial analysis and explanation about shareholder value. However let's talk marketing and value proposition now. The three core elements being target market, differentiation and positioning (in the mind of the customer). I won't give a big analysis because I suspect you'll refute anything that is said. At a high level what I will say is that BMW has changed its value proposition in favor of the mass consumer market. Yes that's probably good for shareholders. In so doing however they have not stayed true to their roots and have somewhat abandoned their core target market and sacrificed them in favor of the masses. BMW has forgotten what it once stood for and how it had been positioned in customer minds for a long time. This is what built BMW and they forgot. As a simple example the BMW 3 series is no longer the clear cut bench mark in that category. It's one of many relatively generic products and isn't well differentiated nor is it positioned as the performance alternative as it once was. Who's the target market? Enthusiasts? Not a chance it's the mass market. As far as I'm concerned BMW has taken this approach with their entire line up and is now letting this approach infect M division. Not to mention watering down the M brand by using M in Sport packages of lesser models.

Overall the M2 is a good car I think they salvaged the M brand with it to a degree but I doubt it will last. I'm keeping the E92 M3 forever because well...read above. Porsche offers almost every sports car it makes in manual in addition to their brilliant PDK and I think Porsche execs are far more connected and in touch with their customers, their history and their value proposition. Argue away but is there really an argument?
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      06-22-2017, 12:00 PM   #86
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It's no longer a manual vs DCT argument. DCT is dead within a few years and the manual is for specialty nostalgia cars.

Torque converter ZF's are replacing both. Bummer
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      06-22-2017, 12:33 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by ashburyn54 View Post
It's no longer a manual vs DCT argument. DCT is dead within a few years and the manual is for specialty nostalgia cars.

Torque converter ZF's are replacing both. Bummer
Very true for BMW which keeps demonstrating how it's lost its way but doubtful for Porsche.
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      06-22-2017, 01:03 PM   #88
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashburyn54 View Post
It's no longer a manual vs DCT argument. DCT is dead within a few years and the manual is for specialty nostalgia cars.

Torque converter ZF's are replacing both. Bummer
Very true for BMW which keeps demonstrating how it's lost its way but doubtful for Porsche.
That's what I'm curious about. Hopefully they follow porsche in that regard. I wish BMW would downsize and focus. Seems too late for that I guess
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