[Dethsupp0rt]

Originally Posted by trey100

What happens when BMW takes away the manual option in the next iteration? Do these threads just become DCT vs an imaginary transmission ?

It'll be a pissing match over who leaves the DCT in manual mode the largest percentage of the time. Hardcore mode will be coding out the automatic shifting logic so they have no choice but to shift it themselves.

[CanAutM3]

In the past, there used to be a strong technical reason for people opting for a MT in a vehicle: because it was the better PERFORMANCE option. In the past, AT would be sluggish in response and would provide unpredictable power delivery. Further, they were slower acceleration wise and offered poorer fuel economy. In those days, it was very true that folks that opted for AT were the ones that did not know how to handle a stick or were too lazy to shift for themselves.

In the last few years, with the avenue of DCT and the rapid progress of planetary automatics, the situation has reversed. AT have become the better performance option. With the ability to select and hold a given gear, rapid gear change when the driver selects it and hard driveline connection through clutches, AT can provide the same advantage in response MT used to have. Further, AT are now faster acceleration wise and provide better fuel economy. I know a lot of folks that opted for AT for the performance even if they are very competent (higher than average) MT drivers. The only reason to opt for a MT these days is NOSTALGIA. There is nothing wrong with that though, but it is understandable that the MT take rate is coming down fast. If it cost manufacturers more money to develop a MT for those few, well it is only normal that the development costs is passed onto them.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

In the past, there used to be a strong technical reason for people opting for a MT in a vehicle: because it was the better PERFORMANCE option. In the past, AT would be sluggish in response and would provide unpredictable power delivery. Further, they were slower acceleration wise and offered poorer fuel economy. In those days, it was entirely true that folks that opted for AT were the ones that did not know how to handle a stick or were too lazy to shift for themselves.

In the last few years, with the avenue of DCT and the progress of planetary automatics, the situation has reversed. AT have become the better performance option. With the ability to select and hold a given gear, rapid gear change when the driver selects it and hard driveline connection through clutches, AT can provide the same advantage MT used to have. Further, AT are now faster acceleration wise and provide better fuel economy. I know a lot of folks that opted for AT for the performance even if they are very competent (higher than average) MT drivers. The only reason to opt for a MT these days is NOSTALGIA. There is nothing wrong with that though. But if it cost manufacturers more money to develop a MT for those few, well it is only normal that the development costs is passed onto them.

I agree that nostalgia or simply "I prefer driving an MT" are both valid reasons to buy an MT but the idea that most who buy DCTs do so because they don't know how to drive an MT is just silly. Also it is not up to me, or anyone else, to determine or dictate what should be "more fun" for someone else.

IMO some cars pair best with an AT (7 Series, Jaguar XJ, Mercedes S, etc.) some pair best with an MT (Miata, Lotus, Fiat) and some like the M3/4 match up well with either.

As I have mentioned in other posts here the BMW M235i Factory Racer comes equipped with a ZF Planetary Geared 8 Speed AT.

That being said I hope BMW continues to offer buyers the choice of an MT.

[fbsm]

No MT then no BMW for me.

These german marketing tards are irritating

~half of all VW GTI sales are MT's

[sandjam]

Is there really a financial gain by eliminating the manual? Not sure why they would do it? I would think a manual trans is cheaper to produce than the complicated DCT trans.
Is it all about sales numbers?
I can see this is the regular 3 or 4 series cars, but on M cars? I think its a mistake.

[fbsm]

Originally Posted by sandjam

Is there really a financial gain by eliminating the manual? Not sure why they would do it? I would think a manual trans is cheaper to produce than the complicated DCT trans.
Is it all about sales numbers?
I can see this is the regular 3 or 4 series cars, but on M cars? I think its a mistake.

There's a cost to having the option and having more than one process on the assembly line

I also suspect that they would prefer to eliminate the MT because it complicates things for a big push for autonomous driving options

I dont want autonomous driving options or the cost associated with it personally

I want a car.....the ultimate driving experience.....not the ultimate chauffuer experience

[SanchoDivine]

Originally Posted by trey100

What happens when BMW takes away the manual option in the next iteration? Do these threads just become DCT vs an imaginary transmission ?

Pseudo manual (DCT) vs full auto

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

Pseudo manual (DCT) vs full auto

The DCT and planetary geared ATs are getting so close that it is difficult in many cases to discern the difference.

[SanchoDivine]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

The DCT and planetary geared ATs are getting so close that it is difficult in many cases to discern the difference.

The removal of the paddle shifters and limiting manual ability to just a couple low gears outside of the usual Drive, Reverse, Neutral, and Park.

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by trey100

Wow that's telling. I have a manual but was thinking of trying a DCT next time around. I enjoy the manual very much though but was curious if the DCT would amp up the performance another notch.

Performance, yes.
Fun, no.

[The HACK]

Originally Posted by sandjam

Is there really a financial gain by eliminating the manual?

Each "drivetrain" combination needs to be certified through various government regulatory agencies (EPA in the US, TUV in Germany...etc). Cost of certifying an additional transmission (manual) vs offering ONLY DCT or auto for each engine can be as much as $100M for a global marquee.

Yes there's a HUGE financial incentive to eliminate the manual.

[NickyC]

Can they build an ultimate driving machine where I can take a dump in the car, it will wipe my ass, and then dispose of the waste products in an environmentally friendly way as I go down the road? What about shaving, can they build an ultimate driving machine that can give me a shave as I barrel down the road at 70mph while the seat massages me and Google handles all the driving?

How about an ultimate driving IV drip? Can they hook me up to provide nourishment while I'm in the car so I can focus 100% of my attention on watching a movie, entertaining myself, or looking at some iDumbass gadget? Eating just takes so much time and who has time for that, I need to play CandyCrush and entertain myself while in my ultimate driving machine.

[sygazelle]

I've never heard of BMW Board of Drivers.

I probably am not going to get the email because I drive a 328, not an M3. If the topic is manual transmissions, the question is relevant to all models of BMW.

"Ultimate Driving Machines" don't have to have 400+ horsepower to be considered a driver's car. Some of my favorite times were in my 125HP E28 528 with a manual.

Now, the 8AT is so good that I personally wouldn't opt for manual at this point. But I think MTs are awesome and BMW should offer them on all F3x and F8x models.

I mean really. How much does it cost BMW to offer a transmission option for drivers who want it? And even if it costs a bit more for them, they could easily make it up by not adding ridiculous models like the 5GT and 6GT.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by sygazelle

I've never heard of BMW Board of Drivers.

The BMW Board of Drivers is a mechanism BMW marketing uses to drive online conversations and establish a dialog between their product teams and customers. It essentially contributes to their overall "voice of the customer" decision factor.

It's also used to pretend they give a shit about what you think, and that you had a say, before they do whatever the fuck they were always going to do anyway.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by SanchoDivine

The removal of the paddle shifters and limiting manual ability to just a couple low gears outside of the usual Drive, Reverse, Neutral, and Park.

Move the MT shifter to the steering column and make the transmission a three speed with no synchomesh in 1st gear`

[captainaudio]

The Tuner Motorsport drivers were turning 56 second laps an Lime Rock in the M235i Factory Racers a few weeks ago.

Anyone who thinks that those cars drive themselves is welcome to rent an M235i Factory Racer and give it a shot,

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by NickyC

Can they build an ultimate driving machine where I can take a dump in the car, it will wipe my ass, and then dispose of the waste products in an environmentally friendly way as I go down the road? What about shaving, can they build an ultimate driving machine that can give me a shave as I barrel down the road at 70mph while the seat massages me and Google handles all the driving?

How about an ultimate driving IV drip? Can they hook me up to provide nourishment while I'm in the car so I can focus 100% of my attention on watching a movie, entertaining myself, or looking at some iDumbass gadget? Eating just takes so much time and who has time for that, I need to play CandyCrush and entertain myself while in my ultimate driving machine.

Not yet but their working on it.

They already build a car with a "Manual" transmission that auto rev matches,

[fullstack]

Going to the arcade when I was a kid, everyone would be playing the racing games that were equipped with a 5 speed shifter. The automatics or the high/low gear games were not engaging enough to be worth the quarters. People looking for a more hardcore level of fun preferred mt.

If automatic transmissions were not quicker, then what would be the advantage of an automatic? Maybe allowing the driver to concentrate more on brake modulation and picking lines? Let's look at it the other way around for a sec. For those who drive for sport, is the fact that automatic transmissions are now quicker the only reason to get an automatic? What would be the other reasons?

The way I see it, 99% or more of car sales are to people who need to use their car to get from a to b and wouldn't mind a little fun here and there. This is totally different from driving for sport. BMW knows this but they need to sell more m cars to the 99% because the m division is being subsidized too much to stay afloat. BMW needs to make the m cars more appealing to more people and they know more people drive automatics. Further proof of this paradigm: the semi-m (m240i). Some people are worried that the manual transmission will disappear. IMO it will definitely disappear in regular production because people are content with the level of fun an automatic brings. I'm worried that the m division will be next.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by 3rdPedalAddict

Going to the arcade when I was a kid, everyone would be playing the racing games that were equipped with a 5 speed shifter. The automatics or the high/low gear games were not engaging enough to be worth the quarters. People looking for a more hardcore level of fun preferred mt.

If automatic transmissions were not quicker, then what would be the advantage of an automatic? Maybe allowing the driver to concentrate more on brake modulation and picking lines? Let's look at it the other way around for a sec. For those who drive for sport, is the fact that automatic transmissions are now quicker the only reason to get an automatic? What would be the other reasons?

The way I see it, 99% or more of car sales are to people who need to use their car to get from a to b and wouldn't mind a little fun here and there. This is totally different from driving for sport. BMW knows this but they need to sell more m cars to the 99% because the m division is being subsidized too much to stay afloat. BMW needs to make the m cars more appealing to more people and they know more people drive automatics. Further proof of this paradigm: the semi-m (m240i). Some people are worried that the manual transmission will disappear. IMO it will definitely disappear in regular production because people are content with the level of fun an automatic brings. I'm worried that the m division will be next.

Most F1 drivers and many drivers in the various sports car series such as IMSA left foot brake. They apparently feel that not only does it speed up reaction time it makes it easier to control weight transfer and contact patch management. It also allows them to keep both hands on the wheel.

I have asked a number of pro racers their opinion to two pedal, paddle shifted transmission and the usual answer is "I am interested in anything that makes the car faster". The object of racing is to win, not to have the most fun.

[bd307]

Received an interesting survey from BMW about the 6MT in our cars.



Among all the questions, here is another interesting one.

"Do you know BMW is the only German car maker that offers a manual transmission?"

People at BMW should update the question now

The last question on this screenshot cracked me up though. Hope they are not serious.

[frankiebones]

Originally Posted by Space gray

One of the questions was wrong because it asked something like "are you aware that BMW M is the only German brand offering manuals". I answered no but I think that's not was was intended. Seems like survey makers were thinking of Audi and MBZ, and forgot about Porsche and VW.
I also agreed to pay $300 more for a manual if it wasn't offered standard because I got trapped by the previous answer and coouldn't go back. Blame me if BMW starts upcharging for manuals.

What about Porsche??

[SanchoDivine]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Most F1 drivers and many drivers in the various sports car series such as IMSA left foot brake. They apparently feel that not only does it speed up reaction time it makes it easier to control weight transfer and contact patch management. It also allows them to keep both hands on the wheel.

I have asked a number of pro racers their opinion to two pedal, paddle shifted transmission and the usual answer is "I am interested in anything that makes the car faster". The object of racing is to win, not to have the most fun.

Those who do it for a living obviously do it to win, make more money, and keep their jobs. Who wouldn't want something that makes their job easier to be better at?