[DKX4///M]

OK I'm sure I'll take a lot of heat from people repeating what they heard from some one else who doesn't fully understand ethanol and why IMHO it SHOULD NOT be run through the stock M2 FUEL SYSTEM OVER 20% (30%) AT MOST.

First off I think ethanol is a great way to add power if done right and think it's great for cars designed for it. And I'll try to keep this short and simple.

Pros:
Cheap
Only fuel thus far widely used not reliant on petroleum
High Oxygen content which makes for added power
Higher Octane Rating than 93AKI (Over 100)
Cleans carbon build up on valves (Unfortunately not on BMW Direct Injection Engines)
Also in the conversion of a liquid to a gas (bc of ideal gas law) it absorbs large amounts of heat vs gasoline (its boiling and vaporization points, it expands much more absorbing much more heat)

Cons:
Attracts and holds water or hydrophilic
Lowers MPG (Because it's about 30% less potential energy)
INDIRECTLY gas stations when tested often mislead consumers w/ lower ethanol content than advertised.
Super corrosive to certain metals, and mildly corrosive to all known engineering material aka fuel pumps, hoses, etc
Lighter by volume than gasoline so it separates and often goes to the bottom of the tank.
Has a stoichiometric level of 9.xx:1 AFR Or LAMBDA of 1 (Due to the molar Oxygen content in ethanol)
Ethanol requires about .7 Lbs/BHP/Hr vs .5 For Gasoline (sometimes more for higher VE or Volumetric Efficiency engines)

Ethanol IS CORROSIVE. It attaches to the hydrogen in water molecules and creates acetic acid...Acetic acid breaks the carbon from steel and aluminum and other metals especially with high carbon content...Also some rubbers and plastics....

..The more moisture or water present, the more acids are produced....a few things effect the rate of corrosion. The velocity in which it contacts the metal, the temperature of the ethanol (at 200 degrees Fahrenheit ethanol is extremely corrosive to almost all metals) and the carbon content of the metal...What does this mean steel is worse off than iron, return fuel systems are damaged faster than variable pump pressure non return systems (because the pump operates at 100% all the time thus gets hotter, the velocity of the ethanol through the pump is high and constant, and being recycled the fuel is basically being moved through a heater and it's constant motion is conductive to higher temps, moving parts corrode more quickly than static parts...pump will wear faster than a tank)
..

Bottom line is while ethanol vs. 105 octane race fuel ethanol will make more power. Port Injection ethanol is a great tool as well as TBI or even CPI like many of us use meth. They are only one molecule apart and almost chemically twins. However studies show methanol actually will wear internals of ICEs up to 15x's faster than ethanol or gasoline...

BUT, in an engine with a BSFC of 0.6 lbs / hr to make 1 BHP will usually take about 30-50% VOLUME of ethanol to make 1 BSHP. Hence a LAMBDA of 1 for pure ethanol is about 9:1, gasoline is 14.7 (At sea level)... Because the oxygen content is so high and remember air is only around 14% oxygen, and that is the only thing used in the air to promote combustion, even though we use twice the volume the combustion is much more powerful but you will get less MPG.

Fuel pumps work on VOLUME! We all know the M2 has a HPFP that almost maxes out at the boost levels we all target! So if we're having fuel starvation with 93, e85 blends will make more hp @ low rpm (which is where our cars make all of our HP & TQ..Higher RPMS We will A. misfire from a absence of fuel and thus cylinder injection shutdown or worse B. detonate from a sudden super lean condition 20:1 (hot, dense mix) less likely due to cooling properties and octane of ethanol and BMW Safe guards, not a non intentional fuel cutoff....

Very best case those running ethanol 50% will diminish their fuel pumps life much faster due to the fact it has to pump almost twice as hard to struggle to maintain a stoichiometric mixture. Our pumps can barely supply the gasoline at 18+ Psi, let alone ethanol. And cavitation on the impellers of the not treated metals is likely, over time, or even short term in some cases.

93 octane with exogenous (Port Injection, Throttle body or Charge Pipe injection) meth or ethanol injection has all the benefits of running e30, and none of the pitfalls...And this doesn't even go into the corrosion it can cause and the moisture it invites into your fuel system( especially those who run their tanks empty often)

Feel free to add why I'm wrong or right or pros/cons I might have forgotten. I just felt so many were running a fuel in there car that neither BMW nor Terry Burger approve of at higher than 30% without fuel upgrades that don't exist yet for our engines.
(Update: Many Upgraded Ethanol solutions are now available, from XDI-35/XDI-60...the later being required for full e85. And Fuel it LPFP upgrades, or simply buying a Walbro 450 or higher LPFP Fuel pump and swapping it with the right adapters out of your In tank Fuel Pump Assembly)

Thanks for reading...

[Orange fever]

you brotha are right !
seen it with my own eyes.
playing with e85 stock Fuel pumps succkkk!!!

[chillindrdude]

As with all things in life, you gotta pay to play.

That was a good educational read.

I have a friend running some bolt-ons in his GT-R using e85. However, not really working on the fueling. He's enjoying his new found HP, at the moment, but I think his block is taking beating and is only a matter of time before it grenades.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by chillindrdude

As with all things in life, you gotta pay to play.

That was a good educational read.

I have a friend running some bolt-ons in his GT-R using e85. However, not really working on the fueling. He's enjoying his new found HP, at the moment, but I think his block is taking beating and is only a matter of time before it grenades.

I always thought GTRs had ethanol sensors and we're built for them. I don't really know too much about them though. I mean it's always better to wreck your fuel system than have catastrophic failure in a car like the M2 or gtr but like you said gotta pay to play.

Most of us that spend thousands on engine mods to get 100 hp on a car that any normal huMann would be more than content w 400hp. When we find a cheaper fuel that instantly bumps us up 30 hp it's tough to resist (even when Ur aware of the detrimental effectso hahaha c

[SeanWRT]

Ethanol is very popular in GTR R35 world. There are many off the shelf E85 build packages of different stages available from many established tuners in North America.

In addition to being corrosive to various components, Ethanol requires different plug gapping, one of the things that compromise daily drivability, which counts as a con in my book.

I am not a fan of that with BMWs, though in preparation for a drag race, Ethonal is definately one of the easier things you can do, for sure E30 won't break anything within half a tank of gas.

At the end of day, going extreme with a BMW for drag race is meaningless anyway.

[mike@x-ph.com]

You make a lot of good points which is why E85 everyone advises that E85 level are kept low on stock fueling systems.

Couple things to note: E85 lowers MPG but it is also cheaper so it ends up being the same.

I ran E60 for years on my car, not even one single problem. I always went with what BMS suggested in terms of max mixtures.

[jeff@autocouture]

Excellent write up, Absolutely Excellent.

Ethanol is great for the modding world for setups designed to run it. As you said, it is highly corrosive to systems not built for it.

[ZPrime]

More info about how ethanol hurts cars from Popular Mechanics.

[NO_USER_]

Originally Posted by SeanWRT

Ethanol is very popular in GTR R35 world. There are many off the shelf E85 build packages of different stages available from many established tuners in North America.

In addition to being corrosive to various components, Ethanol requires different plug gapping, one of the things that compromise daily drivability, which counts as a con in my book.

I am not a fan of that with BMWs, though in preparation for a drag race, Ethonal is definately one of the easier things you can do, for sure E30 won't break anything within half a tank of gas.

At the end of day, going extreme with a BMW for drag race is meaningless anyway.

Does gapping plugs for non E85 cars affect daily drivability?

[Commanderwiggin]

Been running mostly pump E85, some E98 and some race blends of Ethanol over the past 5 years with over 40k miles logged...probably more. Just put on 500miles this weekend driving all around San Diego. It's a great fuel and all the new gen BMW mixing to get an estimated E30/50/60 or whatever blend is unfortunate because with a flex fuel sensor and full E85 is where you'll see the big gains in performance.

If your fuel system is built for ethanol then it will last. PTFE fuel lines and regulator/pumps designed for E85 are recommended (not required). A small cost for the gains to be had. I used to run pump fuel with methanol injection and my flexfuel setup is way better and more reliable. I still have a basic walbro in-tank fuel pump that wasn't designed for E85 and it's doing well...so that just goes to show it isn't so bad.

As for plug's needing re-gapping that's false. The only time you need to re-gap is when your ignition system isn't up to the task or something needs to be further optimized in the tune. I've ran gapless plugs for years on the stock ignition system and now an upgraded VAG coil conversion.

Basically if you're happy with your car...leave it stock. If you want to modify the car for E85, do it right and go full E85...not all this half blend crap that all the JB Junk guys run.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Been running mostly pump E85, some E98 and some race blends of Ethanol over the past 5 years with over 40k miles logged...probably more. Just put on 500miles this weekend driving all around San Diego. It's a great fuel and all the new gen BMW mixing to get an estimated E30/50/60 or whatever blend is unfortunate because with a flex fuel sensor and full E85 is where you'll see the big gains in performance.

If your fuel system is built for ethanol then it will last. PTFE fuel lines and regulator/pumps designed for E85 are recommended (not required). A small cost for the gains to be had. I used to run pump fuel with methanol injection and my flexfuel setup is way better and more reliable. I still have a basic walbro in-tank fuel pump that wasn't designed for E85 and it's doing well...so that just goes to show it isn't so bad.

As for plug's needing re-gapping that's false. The only time you need to re-gap is when your ignition system isn't up to the task or something needs to be further optimized in the tune. I've ran gapless plugs for years on the stock ignition system and now an upgraded VAG coil conversion.

Basically if you're happy with your car...leave it stock. If you want to modify the car for E85, do it right and go full E85...not all this half blend crap that all the JB Junk guys run.

good post. My only disagreement is if your using a walbro044, 1. the corrosive effects can take a long time, 2. the damage is much faster on return type systems (bc of heat) which we obviously don't have and 3. although it's non made specifically for alcohol its obviously the best pump u can get and as a lpfp, it's working at 1/5th or less it's capacity..so I'm sure it'll last forever..

have u modified your hpfp, if not how are you not dealing with starvation or fuel cut or even pre detonation or any knock?

otherwise your right about gapping, if u need to lower your gap your timing is prob too advanced peak power usually comes slighlty after tdc where ignition is obviously easier.

[TunedM2C]

Been using a mix of 93 and E85 for years and have been trouble free. Love the extra power.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by DKM3Power

good post. My only disagreement is if your using a walbro044, 1. the corrosive effects can take a long time, 2. the damage is much faster on return type systems (bc of heat) which we obviously don't have and 3. although it's non made specifically for alcohol its obviously the best pump u can get and as a lpfp, it's working at 1/5th or less it's capacity..so I'm sure it'll last forever..

have u modified your hpfp, if not how are you not dealing with starvation or fuel cut or even pre detonation or any knock?

otherwise your right about gapping, if u need to lower your gap your timing is prob too advanced peak power usually comes slighlty after tdc where ignition is obviously easier.

I think you mean a Bosch 044. Either way my intank is a basic Walbro 255. I run quite a modified fuel system with a Walbro 255 in-tank feeding a surge tank with two Walbro 450's (Ethanol spec). It's a full return system with aftermarket FORE regulator, radium fuel rail, ID1700cc injectors. This is on a turbo E46 so they're technically all LPFP's...no direct injection mess on this beast.

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

I think you mean a Bosch 044. Either way my intank is a basic Walbro 255. I run quite a modified fuel system with a Walbro 255 in-tank feeding a surge tank with two Walbro 450's (Ethanol spec). It's a full return system with aftermarket FORE regulator, radium fuel rail, ID1700cc injectors. This is on a turbo E46 so they're technically all LPFP's...no direct injection mess on this beast.

Sounds sick. But my point....ethanol is great IF you build or have a fuel system made for it. I'd love to see your setup.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by DKM3Power

Sounds sick. But my point....ethanol is great IF you build or have a fuel system made for it. I'd love to see your setup.

Personally I'd have no issues running the M2 fuel system with 80% + Ethanol...most likely would require more fueling though. A nice port injection setup would likely be perfect with a Walbro 450 in tank and likely a small radium surge tank.

Here's an OLD setup back in 2013. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=988544

[DKX4///M]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Personally I'd have no issues running the M2 fuel system with 80% + Ethanol...most likely would require more fueling though. A nice port injection setup would likely be perfect with a Walbro 450 in tank and likely a small radium surge tank.

Here's an OLD setup back in 2013. http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=988544

Firstly you would have problems running 80% Ethanol on your stock fuel system, both short term tuning, drivability, and fuel starvation issues...

But you follow your statement with you would need fuel upgrades with a link to an 800whp e46 with a completely redone fuel system top to bottom, and if you actually read it all the way through the Twin 62mm Walbro 400's he has "do not react well to e85, and will likely need to be replaced"

Also he's pushing off the top of my head between t the 4 pumps and multi regulator system (all of which is low pressure btw) enough fuel to power a 1600whp car running on gasoline, 93, ms 100, whatever...

So I don't get your post, sorry if I misunderstood...Please post a vid of you filling up on e85 from an empty tank and a few 2nd-4th WOT runs...Id like to see how the car protects itself...Maybe an ejection seat lmao

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by DKM3Power

Firstly you would have problems running 80% Ethanol on your stock fuel system, both short term tuning, drivability, and fuel starvation issues...

But you follow your statement with you would need fuel upgrades with a link to an 800whp e46 with a completely redone fuel system top to bottom, and if you actually read it all the way through the Twin 62mm Walbro 400's he has "do not react well to e85, and will likely need to be replaced"

Also he's pushing off the top of my head between t the 4 pumps and multi regulator system (all of which is low pressure btw) enough fuel to power a 1600whp car running on gasoline, 93, ms 100, whatever...

So I don't get your post, sorry if I misunderstood...Please post a vid of you filling up on e85 from an empty tank and a few 2nd-4th WOT runs...Id like to see how the car protects itself...Maybe an ejection seat lmao

Yeah you definitely misunderstood.

A stock M2 system with a single pump radium surge tank setup and a basic port fueling setup would likely be more than adequate with a Bootmod3 flash tune setup for 80% E85.

Secondly...the link is my personal car which is only running a single in-tank walbro 255 pump feeding the surge tank with two Walbro 400 E85 spec pumps. The in-tank pump which is not E85 spec has been running successfully without issue for over 4 years now. Not sure where you got two in-tank and 4 pumps from. There is a total of 3. There is also only one regulator...yes it's a low pressure system and I never said my system would be the same in an M2. The link was provided at your request to prove validity.

If you want a video here's an old one running around 900whp:
https://youtu.be/_W4plCsJjVM

As for filling up...that's a pretty boring and basic thing to take a video of. I can guarantee I've ran up to 98% ethanol in my system. Running 1000rwhp now on a smaller injector with 80% ethanol straight from the pump. This is also a daily driver believe it or not...I take you for a non-believer.

[M2Dynamic]

Originally Posted by Commanderwiggin

Yeah you definitely misunderstood.

A stock M2 system with a single pump radium surge tank setup and a basic port fueling setup would likely be more than adequate with a Bootmod3 flash tune setup for 80% E85.

Secondly...the link is my personal car which is only running a single in-tank walbro 255 pump feeding the surge tank with two Walbro 400 E85 spec pumps. The in-tank pump which is not E85 spec has been running successfully without issue for over 4 years now. Not sure where you got two in-tank and 4 pumps from. There is a total of 3. There is also only one regulator...yes it's a low pressure system and I never said my system would be the same in an M2. The link was provided at your request to prove validity.

If you want a video here's an old one running around 900whp:
https://youtu.be/_W4plCsJjVM

As for filling up...that's a pretty boring and basic thing to take a video of. I can guarantee I've ran up to 98% ethanol in my system. Running 1000rwhp now on a smaller injector with 80% ethanol straight from the pump. This is also a daily driver believe it or not...I take you for a non-believer.

That's some amazing work man. Big props to you. Just looked at your other thread and building a fueling system like that and reliably putting down that much power is no small accomplishment. Congrats and I hope if you do ever get an M2 you can guide some of us on some fueling systems. Thanks!!

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by M2Dynamic

That's some amazing work man. Big props to you. Just looked at your other thread and building a fueling system like that and reliably putting down that much power is no small accomplishment. Congrats and I hope if you do ever get an M2 you can guide some of us on some fueling systems. Thanks!!

Thanks man, I think if I was going to build a new system for any car I'd probably utilize the new Injector Dynamics F750 fuel filter in addition to the new brushless fuel pump and controller when it's released soon. Port fueling/surge tank/PTFE lines etc...

[M+M]

not only do you have to have the right gear with E85 but if you want to tune to extract the available power you gotta find the right dyno tuner and trust him with your expensive engine! More power but I suspect less margin for error too.

[Commanderwiggin]

Originally Posted by M+M

not only do you have to have the right gear with E85 but if you want to tune to extract the available power you gotta find the right dyno tuner and trust him with your expensive engine! More power but I suspect less margin for error too.

Larger margin for error actually. E85 has a way larger window of knock resistance. Can't go wrong with a basic OTS Bootmod3 tune already available for around 400rwhp with current stock fueling. Anything over that needs some additional fueling for reliable operation. Dyno will do 450 but you'll find issues with acceleration forces at work.

[DragonGate]

Commanderwiggin Awesome info thank you for sharing some light here as the big opposition of E85 from the biased
Are you planning on doing any E85 (max limit test) on your M2?