[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

You are some kind of special.

Maybe I am!!!!

I walked into a dealer close to me 4 weeks ago asking how I get a hold of an M2.

He said there are three slots and I could build them however I wanted. 4 weeks later, my car is now built and about to head out the motherland.

At MSRP ta boot!

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

Not necessarily.Why would there be two different training documents ?

Updates to that document....... Im sure BMW USA didn't pull this out their ass like most on this board.

[Nine Lives]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

Not necessarily.Why would there be two different training documents ?

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

Updates to that document....... Im sure BMW USA didn't pull this out their ass like most on this board.

The closed deck block would have been mentioned in the first iteration of the first training manual and would not be subject to change as that is the feature of the original so called specification....remember.

Why the aggressive attitude..really no need

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Luc talking out his neck.
Fantastic Dutch/Flemish translated into English.
I'm lying double overhere (DutchEnglish)

AFAIK "to talk out of (the side of) one's neck" (aka "letting your mouth write checks that your *ss can't cash") is part of US slang since quite some time (it also features in songs). Maybe the Americans adopted the expression from the Dutch (as the expression exists for ages in the Dutch language) ?

Alike that fancy term 'keelhauling', adopted from the Dutch term 'kielhalen': an old naval punishment practice perfectioned by the Dutch Navy in the 16th century (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keelhauling - http://holyspeculation.blogspot.be/2...elhauling.html).

Now back to the topic.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Nine Lives

Not necessarily.Why would there be two different training documents ?

Not following. She read from her document. Who the hell knows the authenticity of the document from bimmerfest.

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Not following. She read from her document. Who the hell knows the authenticity of the document from bimmerfest.

Reaching for straws......

It even says bimmerpost on that document. Funny.

Mind you theres no aggression here, just a reality check for all you deep thinkers. No need to think deeply, they tell us explicitly on the website.

[PrematureApex]

Marketing never gets anything wrong(!) Trust the US marketing department over the training documents, which visually show an open-deck engine. Or the fact that you can physically look at the M2 block and see that it's the same casting at least on the exterior as the regular one, whereas the closed deck S55 is significantly different. Or the fact that ALL of the other BMW cites don't mention closed deck block.

One website, out of how many? And the training manual?

To the contrary, a majority of the evidence probably tips that it was an error by BMWNA. A new block, for this limited number of cars? Why wouldn't they just use the S55 block, as the tooling was already there? Use your head.

Go on tell us more about class action lawsuits. We haven't heard you talk out of your ass enough these past few days. There are lawyers on here. There are engineers on here. You're clearly neither.

You joined less than a week ago? Great first impression you're making.

No need to respond. A head will be pulled soon enough. And you'll have to apologize for being such a mouthy jackass, which you should do anyway, wrong or right.

P.S. Your profile says you drive an M2, yet you don't.

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Marketing never gets anything wrong(!) Trust the US marketing department over the training documents, which visually show an open-deck engine. Or the fact that you can physically look at the M2 block and see that it's the same casting at least on the exterior as the regular one, whereas the closed deck S55 is significantly different.

Or the fact that ALL of the other BMW cites don't mention closed deck bock.

One website, out of how many? And the training manual?

To the contrary, most of the evidence tips that it was an error by BMWNA. A new block, for this limited number of cars? Why wouldn't they just use the S55 block, as the tooling was already there? Use your head.

Go on tell us more about class action lawsuits. We haven't heard you talk out of your ass enough these past few days. There are lawyers on here. There are engineers on here. You're clearly neither.

No need to respond. A head will be pulled soon enough. And you'll have to apologize for being such a mouthy jackass, which you should do anyway, wrong or right.

Hit a nerve did we??? I can respond fast as an M2 would whip your tuned 135i......

Why would the block have to look like the S55 in order to be closed? Thats some stupid F*in logic dont you think? Do you know what it takes from a tooling perspective to close a deck off? Please share your experience if you do. All they have to do is fill the top of the deck which would close off the upper layer of cooling ducts. Seems pretty simple to me. They already bore it out to press in liners. They had their reasons how they did things and my firm belief is its closed in some fashion.

The truth is, theres no hard evidence it is in fact not closed, just not great evidence that it is a closed deck, do you get that buddy? Really its that simple. I take the BMW websites, and BMW techs word much more than these stupid rants about the look of the S55 block ect ect.

If it is open so be it!!! I wont be ashamed in the least as I relied on false information provided by the company itself. Companies dont take lying about their engineering lightly so ill put my bets in that camp.

Could the deck be open sure, I guess so. We wont know until a head comes off as you said. So quite whining about me, and get that special someone with a brand new M2 to let you crack it open just to prove to me, the guy in Jersey with 5 bimmerposts, whos rubbed you wrong today, that you in fact were right all along!!! Please video tape it for us all while your at it.

Was that mouthy enough for you?? Sleep well, in all seriousness.....

PS, you seem tweeked about my incoming M2 and my profile. At the risk of ruining your whole week, I wont list the cars I currently own for you...... We can leave it there and you DO NOT need to respond, dont worry.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

Seems pretty simple to me.

We're all well-aware that it would.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

Hit a nerve did we??? I can respond fast as an M2 would whip your tuned 135i......

Why would the block have to look like the S55 in order to be closed? Thats some stupid F*in logic dont you think? Do you know what it takes from a tooling perspective to close a deck off? Please share your experience if you do. All they have to do is fill the top of the deck which would close off the upper layer of cooling ducts. Seems pretty simple to me.

I didn't want to respond, but your reading comprehension is nothing short of astonishing.

No, of course the block wouldn't have to look like an S55 to be closed deck. No one said that.

What was said was, if they already had a closed-deck block based off of the N55 (i.e. the s55 block), tooled and in production, why on earth would they design/tool another one for such a low-volume car?

And from your post, clearly, you have no freaking clue how a block is manufactured, open or closed deck.

I'm an ME by training (who's worked for GM), an also an attorney. So please, tell us how blocks are cast and machined, and then go on to tell us about class-action suits.

Or, you could stop talking out of your ass and embarrassing yourself. For all of us baby.

[SoCalRob]

Found the following statement in a lengthy description of the M2 on motorsport.com (emphasis mine):

"The all-new BMW M2’s newly developed 3.0 liter 6-cylinder engine represents a symbiosis of exceptional output and outstanding efficiency. The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminum unit is extremely rigid due to its closed-deck design – which means that the cylinder water jacket is closed at the top. This enables higher cylinder pressures for improved power output and torque."

Here's a link to the entire article: http://www.motorsport.com/automotive...w-2016-bmw-m2/

So, did motorsport.com get it wrong too?

Regards. -scr

Edited to add - Another article saying the same thing about closed-deck (see last paragraph of write-up): http://www.enginetechnologyinternati...ArticleID=1505

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I didn't want to respond, but your reading comprehension is nothing short of astonishing.

No, of course the block wouldn't have to look like an S55 to be closed deck. No one said that.

What was said was, if they already had a closed-deck block based off of the N55 (i.e. the s55 block), tooled and in production, why on earth would they design/tool another one for such a low-volume car?

And from your post, clearly, you have no freaking clue how a block is manufactured, open or closed deck.

I'm an ME by training (who's worked for GM), an also an attorney. So please, tell us how blocks are cast and machined, and then go on to tell us about class-action suits.

Or, you could stop talking out of your ass and embarrassing yourself. For all of us baby.

There was no talking out of ones ass, but maybe a nice long run on sentence! Just trying to be a realist instead of a what if, or maybe this, or jee wizz how could they that blah blah. The facts as of today say the deck is somehow closed.

I never proclaimed to be a engineer and you still have not answered my question as I am inquisitive....

How tough is it to close out an open deck block? Surly they would not need to redesign a new block, or change the casting and I think you can agree with me on that. The S55 is a very different engine and requires different casting so not comparable, that logic makes no sense to me.

Please, enlighten me and tell me how hard would it be to close a deck? Are you arguing with me over the pressed liners and the fact that the block is already being modified?

Give us answers Engineer man!

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by SoCalRob

Found the following statement in a lengthy description of the M2 on motorsport.com (emphasis mine):

"The all-new BMW M2’s newly developed 3.0 liter 6-cylinder engine represents a symbiosis of exceptional output and outstanding efficiency. The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminum unit is extremely rigid due to its closed-deck design – which means that the cylinder water jacket is closed at the top. This enables higher cylinder pressures for improved power output and torque."

Here's a link to the entire article: http://www.motorsport.com/automotive...w-2016-bmw-m2/

So, did motorsport.com get it wrong too?

Regards. -scr

Edited to add - Another article saying the same thing about closed-deck (see last paragraph of write-up): http://www.enginetechnologyinternati...ArticleID=1505

I mean, when you read "allnew newly-developed 3.0l", you should have stopped reading.

BMWNA put out press material stating closed deck. No other country has. No other country's site does.

The factory training manual, which explicitly lists the differences between the standard N55 and the M2's version, DOESN'T even mention a new block. And depicts a open-block. Yet, you ignore that, and place marketing material above it.

Somehow, that's less significant than motorsport.com's fluff piece?

BMW didn't upgrade the turbo, but felt the need to give it an all-new block?

They could have bolted on a single snail to the S55 block, but instead spent the money to tool yet another 3.0l, N55-based closed deck block? Why on earth would they do that?

As the tuners have said, this is a regular N55 from all that they can see.

Again, time will tell. But reading a single piece of marketing department print, while ignoring factory technical manuals, is hardly grounds to call people bozos, etc.

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by SoCalRob

Found the following statement in a lengthy description of the M2 on motorsport.com (emphasis mine):

"The all-new BMW M2’s newly developed 3.0 liter 6-cylinder engine represents a symbiosis of exceptional output and outstanding efficiency. The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminum unit is extremely rigid due to its closed-deck design – which means that the cylinder water jacket is closed at the top. This enables higher cylinder pressures for improved power output and torque."

Here's a link to the entire article: http://www.motorsport.com/automotive...w-2016-bmw-m2/

So, did motorsport.com get it wrong too?

Regards. -scr

Edited to add - Another article saying the same thing about closed-deck (see last paragraph of write-up): http://www.enginetechnologyinternati...ArticleID=1505

Evidently a bunch of non M2 owners think everyone, including BMW are lying about it.... So yeah its all a big lie.

[RPM2-85]

http://www.cgperformance.com/subaru_block.htm

If these dudes can offer to close a WRX block very easily it seems, I think one of the greatest engine producers can do the same even easier.......

Use your head.

[PrematureApex]

Holy shit man. Yeah, that's what BMW does...fills in an open-deck N55 block. That's what the "greatest engine producer does". Versus what every other OE does, cast the block as closed-deck in the first place.

Again, stop posting.

This is how OE's make engines....

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196558

Stop citing some 3rd party engine modifier as evidence of how engine blocks are manufactured.

I know it all seems "simple" to you. You should take that as a hint.

[SoCalRob]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

BMWNA put out press material stating closed deck. No other country has. No other country's site does.

I understand what you're saying, however, I wasn't able to find any sort of retraction of the statements regarding closed-deck. I would think that, in all this time, someone in an official capacity would have said something, and that such an egregious misstatement of fact would have been publicly corrected.

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

As the tuners have said, this is a regular N55 from all that they can see.

Has anyone actually verified this through visual inspection? I ask without knowing the answer - I'm very new to this issue.

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Again, time will tell. But reading a single piece of marketing department print, while ignoring factory technical manuals, is hardly grounds to call people bozos, etc.

I agree, and I'm certainly not inferring that anyone is a bozo - I don't know any of you folks that well!

I'm confident we'll know the truth of the matter soon enough. -scr

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

I mean, when you read "allnew newly-developed 3.0l", you should have stopped reading.

BMWNA put out press material stating closed deck. No other country has. No other country's site does.

The factory training manual, which explicitly lists the differences between the standard N55 and the M2's version, DOESN'T even mention a new block. And depicts a open-block. Yet, you ignore that, and place marketing material above it.

Somehow, that's less significant than motorsport.com's fluff piece?

BMW didn't upgrade the turbo, but felt the need to give it an all-new block?

They could have bolted on a single snail to the S55 block, but instead spent the money to tool yet another 3.0l, N55-based closed deck block? Why on earth would they do that?

As the tuners have said, this is a regular N55 from all that they can see.

The tuners here in the states are nowhere near the ones in Europe except for TTFS and their ECU tune...... Just because it looks the same visually means little. Its a Nurburgring favorite for a reason, seems to be bulletproof.

[RPM2-85]

Originally Posted by PrematureApex

Holy shit man. Yeah, that's what BMW does...fills in an open-deck N55 block. That's what the "greatest engine producer does". Versus what every other OE does, cast the block as closed-deck in the first place.

Again, stop posting.

This is how OE's make engines....

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196558

Stop citing some 3rd party engine modifier as evidence of how engine blocks are manufactured.

I know it all seems "simple" to you. You should take that as a hint.

We can agree to disagree I need to ask though, do you know what it takes to close a deck post casting and any harmful effects in doing so? Do you know how hard it is to change the casting to include a closed deck design?

If there is a benifit for the engine and you can do it post casting with no harmful effects why wouldnt they look to something like this? I think that 3rd partys site is actually constructive to view.

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

Evidently a bunch of non M2 owners think everyone, including BMW are lying about it.... So yeah its all a big lie.

Ummm, BMW...as in homeland BMW, internal technical documents, etc. show and open deck and don't mention as closed deck...despite allegedly listing the differences.

BMWNA marketing material states closed deck. That's a far cry from "BMW is lying about it".

Take your pick: BMW's in-house technical training manuals are lying, or some 20 something writing copy for BMW's NA marketing arm is lying.

Where do you think the good money is?

I'll take the picture of the block in the training manual and the fact that every other change in the N55 is mentioned, sans anything about a block...above a freaking marketing blurb. And the fact that technically, and financially, it makes no sense to cast a new closed-deck N55-based block WHEN THEY ALREADY HAVE ON IN PRODUCTION.

But I'm sure you're right.

[SoCalRob]

Okay, found this slightly more nuanced (less BMW PR-ish) analysis:

"Editor’s comments:

The engine (N55B30T0) used on the M2, is based on the “standard” N55 which you can see on most “35i” BMW models, but heavily modified (with some components borrowed from the S55 – pistons, crankshaft main bearing etc.). BMW even made enhancements to the N55’s cylinder block, changing it from its original open-deck design to what BMW is now calling “closed-deck” on the M2.

However, the meaning of “closed-deck” is very vague – there are many types of “closed-deck”. One point I would like to point out is: the “closed-deck” design on the N55B30T0, is different than the closed-deck S55 cylinder block. BMW has not released images and design drawings of the N55B30T0, so I am unable to provide a more in-depth analysis at this moment."

Link to article: http://youwheel.com/home/2015/10/14/...e-2016-bmw-m2/

Regards. -scr

[PrematureApex]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

seems to be bulletproof.

The standard N55 block is bulletproof at stock turbo power levels (and far beyond). But you wouldn't know that, as you have zero experience with any of these engines.

But your post reveals the real problem. You're defending your (future) engine as if we're attacking that it's open-deck. Not at all, while not built like an N54, the N55 is hugely strong for this application. Makes no difference whether or not it is open or closed. It's significantly overbuilt for its turbo as it is. Which is even more evidence that BMW had no real reason to revamp it. As they chose to leave the turbo alone.