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      08-23-2016, 11:15 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yellowflash21
So my "friend" decided to go with 300v Trophy 0w40, the same Oil that is highly recommend for GTR, and any high performance sport car

He got X5 for which he get rid of bmw warranty from the first day as this oil is not LL approved and he wanted to keep the car for very time period, so he started to fill it from his first service, and after 150k miles not a single problem he had with it engine or turbo.

It costs twice more than any regular oil, and it's recommended to be changed around 5-6k miles.

I'm looking forward to see the difference and let you know.
The long life part is so you can leave it longer. If you change often that is good. The problem is if you don't use LL01 and go two years 15k Mike between changes. The thing is that direct injection is harder on oils than port injection and even with LL01 rating I would not go the long intervals. I'm not sure which X5 your friend had but if it was not turbo and direct injection it wouldn't be the same as the M2 which is. I think Motul is great but just posted the info in case someone wanted thicker oil that met all of the BMW requirements.
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      08-24-2016, 01:17 PM   #24
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He has 35d but also he used it on his old E46 M3.

Not a single engine issue.

Anyway we tested it today, and huge difference is there believe it or not.

As be both have manuals, first gear is always bit clunky until you push it into sport+ mode, but now it's bloody smooth like warm butter.

We took some time and monitored oil temperature over secret menu, until it reached around 220F and then we started to push it up to 120 mph several times.

The temperate stayed same even it dropped due to nice M2 cooling, but we can't tell.

But what surprised us most us is that there isn't that annoying peach when on cruse control at going from 2.5k RPM up to 4k. To put it simple the engine is way quiet....

There might me some mpg improvement but we really didn't bother with that.

Also previous oil that was in there was super clean!
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      09-02-2016, 08:39 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by pruettfan View Post
Oil debates are always entertaining...
Yep. All this back and forth on which is best doesn't make sense when the average person on this forum will dump their car in 3-5 years when the next new better car comes out or when their lease ends.
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      09-03-2016, 01:05 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Yep. All this back and forth on which is best doesn't make sense when the average person on this forum will dump their car in 3-5 years when the next new better car comes out or when their lease ends.
It matters for those that keep their cars and there are some. Since you appear to be one of the juveniles that doesn't care and just trades in all the time then please find a juvenile thread to crap on and not contribute one iota of information but just take a crap on it for no reason. Try sesame street.org. My 5 year old loves it!
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      11-06-2016, 06:16 PM   #27
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Love this thread! Reminds me of my time spent back on the subbie STi forums. Man did we get into oil issues and nachob you would fit right in there- in a good way my friend. Using the right oil and changing it frequently does matter. Guy who tuned my STi gave me one piece of advice and that was to choose a high quality brand and change it frequently - every 3000-3500 miles at most which is what I have done with my STi using Motul only. Difference between 0 and 5W won't hurt you nearly as much as if you just leave it and pretend it's all gonna last forever. It won't.

What is BmW recommending for oil change intervals on the M2?
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      11-06-2016, 07:33 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Yep. All this back and forth on which is best doesn't make sense when the average person on this forum will dump their car in 3-5 years when the next new better car comes out or when their lease ends.
It matters for those that keep their cars and there are some. Since you appear to be one of the juveniles that doesn't care and just trades in all the time then please find a juvenile thread to crap on and not contribute one iota of information but just take a crap on it for no reason. Try sesame street.org. My 5 year old loves it!
Interesting that you came to this conclusion. Pics attached of a couple of my maintenance books I keep in each my cars. The first is of my M2 which has about 5000 miles and is on its 5th set of oil. The second is on my X1 which doesn't do track duty so gets a longer change interval. It's on its 6th change in 24000 miles.

I never said don't change the oil. I believe the oil change is the cheapest insurance policy. I just don't believe it matters on the brand and where it came from and ... so long as it is LL01 and you change it frequently enough. So let the debate continue and go flame someone else.

BTW my 330i which I bought new in 2005 and now has 110k has had over 25 changes. Also, btw I just changed the trans fluid for the third time on it last week. Also the lsd diff fluid for the 4th time. Before you tell me it doesn't have an LSD, I had a custom lsd built for it at about 15k. Look it up on e90post. My 99 M3 is on its second oil change since I bought it 4000 miles ago. It too has had two trans fluid changes and a diff fluid change since I bought it at 70000.
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      11-06-2016, 07:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JDMAF View Post
Love this thread! Reminds me of my time spent back on the subbie STi forums. Man did we get into oil issues and nachob you would fit right in there- in a good way my friend. Using the right oil and changing it frequently does matter. Guy who tuned my STi gave me one piece of advice and that was to choose a high quality brand and change it frequently - every 3000-3500 miles at most which is what I have done with my STi using Motul only. Difference between 0 and 5W won't hurt you nearly as much as if you just leave it and pretend it's all gonna last forever. It won't.

What is BmW recommending for oil change intervals on the M2?
I'm fairly certain there is no standard oil change interval. They rely on the computer to dictate the next service. This could be anywhere from 5000mi -12,000mi or even more all depending on measured driving conditions.
http://www.rennology.com/site/files/...service-schedu

I have no reason to believe the Condition Based Service system is insufficient. If it's non-optimal, how would person's judgement be any better?
There are many Blackstone Labs reports verifying drained oil quality is good. Synthetic oil is amazing stuff.
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      11-07-2016, 11:00 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Interesting that you came to this conclusion.
Ok, Let me explain the conclusion and add some context. I began to research oils for those that care about their cars as much as I do. I spent a lot of time studying certifications, looking for documentation. I called Shell oil since they are the new approved supplier of oil for M2 and 1M. Also BMW has released new oils. I spent time speaking with an engineer at Shell. Despite not having an M2, I have a 1M, I decided that we are the same community with the same concerns and decided to post some of what I learned on this forum. There were people with different opinions and I respect that and spent time answering their concerns. So the sole purpose of of this thread was to share good information. People added their experiences and thoughts on oils furthering the discussion. Some liked 0 weight, some didn't, etc etc. It was an honest fruitful discussion furthering the exchange of ideas.

Then you posted this:

"Yep. All this back and forth on which is best doesn't make sense when the average person on this forum will dump their car in 3-5 years when the next new better car comes out or when their lease ends."

You were not adding anything in good faith to the discussion. You were simply stating this whole thread is worthless and a waste of time because people don't keep their cars more than 3-5 years.

You basically just took a dump on the thread and moved on.

Now you post all of this stuff to prove that you do care about your car but all I had to base my response was this one act of poor judgment or incivility or whatever you want to call it that appears immature. So you might in fact really care about your car or you might be a nice person but what you did on the thread was lame in my opinion. If you want to contribute something to the discussion of oils for those of us that keep our cars more than 5 years, which my 1M is 5 years old now, you are welcome to contribute. But just saying this thread is worthless is not just lame but fails to understand others points of view that they do want to keep their cars.

So I am sorry you don't understand why you got that response, I hope this helps clarify it.

Best wishes.


Now on to real discussion. You state again that oil doesn't matter as long as certifications are there. What you missed from the thread is that Shell is using different technology than other oils. They are making this from Natural Gas stock not petroleum stock so it is in fact different than other oils. BMW has tested Shell oils and certified them not just "OK to Use."

Furthermore, they are certified for Ferrari and Maserati too.
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      11-07-2016, 11:36 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Ok, Let me explain the conclusion and add some context. I began to research oils for those that care about their cars as much as I do. I spent a lot of time studying certifications, looking for documentation. I called Shell oil since they are the new approved supplier of oil for M2 and 1M. Also BMW has released new oils. I spent time speaking with an engineer at Shell. Despite not having an M2, I have a 1M, I decided that we are the same community with the same concerns and decided to post some of what I learned on this forum. There were people with different opinions and I respect that and spent time answering their concerns. So the sole purpose of of this thread was to share good information. People added their experiences and thoughts on oils furthering the discussion. Some liked 0 weight, some didn't, etc etc. It was an honest fruitful discussion furthering the exchange of ideas.

Then you posted this:

"Yep. All this back and forth on which is best doesn't make sense when the average person on this forum will dump their car in 3-5 years when the next new better car comes out or when their lease ends."

You were not adding anything in good faith to the discussion. You were simply stating this whole thread is worthless and a waste of time because people don't keep their cars more than 3-5 years.

You basically just took a dump on the thread and moved on.

Now you post all of this stuff to prove that you do care about your car but all I had to base my response was this one act of poor judgment or incivility or whatever you want to call it that appears immature. So you might in fact really care about your car or you might be a nice person but what you did on the thread was lame in my opinion. If you want to contribute something to the discussion of oils for those of us that keep our cars more than 5 years, which my 1M is 5 years old now, you are welcome to contribute. But just saying this thread is worthless is not just lame but fails to understand others points of view that they do want to keep their cars.

So I am sorry you don't understand why you got that response, I hope this helps clarify it.

Best wishes.


Now on to real discussion. You state again that oil doesn't matter as long as certifications are there. What you missed from the thread is that Shell is using different technology than other oils. They are making this from Natural Gas stock not petroleum stock so it is in fact different than other oils. BMW has tested Shell oils and certified them not just "OK to Use."

Furthermore, they are certified for Ferrari and Maserati too.
Read the entire thread you'll see that I contributed earlier and didn't just drop in.

I'll let you all continue to debate the merit of this type of stuff - location, used by Ferrari... My recommendation to all on this thread remains to change frequently with approved LL01 oil as per my owners manual. It's cheap insurance.
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      11-09-2016, 11:00 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
Read the entire thread you'll see that I contributed earlier and didn't just drop in.

I'll let you all continue to debate the merit of this type of stuff - location, used by Ferrari... My recommendation to all on this thread remains to change frequently with approved LL01 oil as per my owners manual. It's cheap insurance.
The manual you are quoting says "if not available, you can use any LL01" oil" and BMW recommends BMW oil. Are you not even reading what you are presenting? We are talking here about BMW oils in three flavors. 0W-30, 5W-30 and 5w-40 M oil offered by BMW as well as Pennzoil Euro 5W-40 made by Shell which makes BMW oils.

The discussion was around the merits of 0 Weights, BMW branded vs Shell, etc. All of which are approved options by BMW and for those that want a 5W-40 still made using the exact same process as BMW oil, the Penzoil Euro 5W-40.

Yes, if you don't see any value in the thread LEAVE US ALONE! Why are you trolling it for no reason. That's what seems juvenile and you don't understand the discussion.

Read the manual again. Let me repeat. We are evaluating all the three BMW approved and branded oil options for M2 as well as one branded differently but made by the same company in the same way. We are trying to adhere to BMWs recommendations of using their branded oil or at least one made the same way. Since there are 4 choices, hence a discussion.

So please, if you don't see value, go away. We are not harming you by discussing this!
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      12-10-2016, 01:38 PM   #33
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      12-10-2016, 09:06 PM   #34
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Thank you! Great addition!
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      01-11-2017, 01:49 AM   #35
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Just got my break in service done. I'm in Southern California for what its worth. 5w-30.

In the summer and as all the tracks around here are in the desert, I will put in some 5w-40 myself.

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      02-05-2017, 06:25 PM   #36
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OP, thank you for the insight.

Can you confirm my understanding of your message that 0w30 can be thinner than 5w30 even at its operating temperature despite of them both rated as 30, which leads to 1)less protection, 2) excessive oil consumption and 3) blow-by?

If that's true, isn't 0w40 a better option (than 5w30) in both world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by epinfren View Post
I don't understand how there is still so much ignorance regarding oil in 2016, especially on a board devoted to an enthusiast model.

The number before the W in an oil is the cold weight of the oil. The second number is the weight at full temp. (Cold Weight)W(Hot Weight)

Both the 0W40 and 5W40 are 40 weight oils and will have the same thickness and film strength at full operating temp. Where the 0W is SUPERIOR to the 5W is at cold start up. The 0W is thinner only at start up so the motor turns over easier and the engine has proper lubrication the moment it cranks. It is not a thinner oil overall and/or at operating temp, only at start up where you want the oil to be thin.

Also, any 0W oil will always be a full synthetic. There is no such thing as a 0W conventional.
OK let me start with this my fellow car loving brother. As you can see by my length of time here, I have been on here a long time and I have never seen anyone change their opinions online. It is a useless endeavour but some of us are gluttons for punishment. I have two kids....despite being peed on, vomited at, sneezed at, being up all night for the 4 years straight I went ahead and had a second child. So those are my credentials to address your statement.

First let me start with this. You are 1,000,000% correct with with your "technical" review of the facts and 99% here know that the lower viscosity number is cold weight, etc. No one is disputing that or is ignorant unlike the Birthers that believe bashing a car with no miles is actually better for it.

So we have that out of the way. I am agreeing with you and the only reason I am putting such a long reply despite being in agreement with you on the technical accuracy you brought up is because I am the original poster.

So again, I do not disagree with you but I also understand why many are skeptical and nervous about 0W oils.

First Reason History.
Dr told women Thalidomide was good for pregnant women. Later it caused birth defects.

Dr.s said Eggs and Butter bad and margarine good. Peanut Butter and Avocados were high in fat and cholesterol. Now, natural peanut butter is good as are eggs and real butter.

Hang in there, I'll get to cars...
BMW recommended periodic transmission, diff and fluid changes in their cars. Then around 2003, the exact same car with no mechanical difference became lifetime fill fluids. As soon as BMW started to pay for service, the coolant flushes, brake fluid intervals doubled.

Those that are cynical believe it was because now that BMW was paying for the service, they simply decreed longer intervals. So you can begin to see a pattern here I hope. My 2011 BMW 1M motor is no different internally than most other N54 motors yet for my M version, they gave me a 1200 mile old school break-in that was not afforded to non M motors that were identical!

So manufacturers do things for THEIR interests not yours and many understand that which is why they are skeptical! I have never left oil in my car for two years and 15K miles nor have I left the same transmission oil and diff oil for the 15 years. Guess what, BMW has now backtracked from the lifetime fill because they experimented with a generation of cars and realized that transmissions were failing at 90K miles.

So why are manufacturers going with 0W oils. If you believe in the tooth fairy, you assume that it is because of less engine wear during cold starts. I'm sure that is part of it, the non tooth-fairy crowd believe it has to do with meeting tough fuel consumption standards. With a thin oil there is less parasitic drag especially when cold and you can start driving immediately. Also, you can designate one oil that will work worldwide! That is a very cool thing. In the past, you were given oil options based on average temperatures.

So the question then becomes, do you want to put the best possible oil for your temperature range or want a jack-of-all-trades oil designed to be OK in the Siberian winter? If there is in fact no trade-off with the zero weight, then that would be fine. But the non tooth-fairy believers think that there are always tradeoffs! It's too good to be true and we wonder if BMW is again experimenting on our dime with our cars.

There are engineers that believe that the thinner oil, even if it is only during the warm up stage is passing through valve guides, rings, etc causing consumption and worse yet blow-by that can create carbon build up on valves, especially in direct injected motors.

Now if you live in a part of the country where it gets really cold in the winter, then a little extra consumption would be worth it so you don't have congealed oil even though 5W is already pretty good at preventing that. But what about people like me that live in hot climates and get sunburned in the winter and store our cars in garages? The tradeoff benefit of a 0W vs a 5W might not be worth it if there is a chance of extra consumption and blow-by.

I have attached an image of a Consumer Reports article where they discuss this and I will include the link also.


So to summarize.
0W is being used to reduce fuel consumption and to have one oil that works worlwide.

Some believe that there are trade-offs. If you drive a lot and lived in cold climate then the benefits of 0W probably make sense. The oil flows quickly and I save on gas.

If you live in a hot climate and drive it very little then you might not want to make your dream car part of the 0W experiment because in a hot climate, there is less benefit to 0W.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/n...-oil/index.htm
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      02-06-2017, 12:05 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
OP, thank you for the insight.

Can you confirm my understanding of your message that 0w30 can be thinner than 5w30 even at its operating temperature despite of them both rated as 30, which leads to 1)less protection, 2) excessive oil consumption and 3) blow-by?
In theory 0W-30 and 5W-30 should be the same at operating temperature however. However, I worry that while both might meet the same 30W standard one might be still be on the higher end of the 30W standard and one lower; or, they both might meet the standard but one break down earlier and drop below the 30W standard as the Redline man said in the video.

Also, while both meet the minimum 30W viscocity it takes quite a bit of time for our cars to get up to operating temperature. Before they achieve the operating temperature, the OW oil is thinner. During this time you could be increasing consumption and blow-by.

If you live in cold climates the benefits of 0W probably offset the negatives of a little more consumption and/or blow-by but for me in San Diego where it never gets cold, there is no real benefit to 0W and only the possible dowside of blow-by before it achieves operating temperature.

Now as a matter of strictly conjecture and opinion, I do think the 0W is probably thinner overall than a 5W-30 or 10W-30 but I would defer to the oil specialists on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
OP, thank you for the insight.

If that's true, isn't 0w40 a better option (than 5w30) in both world?
Again, solely on gutt and conjecture, I would err on the side of 0W-40 because you get more protection at operating temperature. So Yes, 0-40 is a better option in m opinion but, there is still a period of time where you still have 0W oil before you are up to temperature where you could have the extra consumption and possibly blow-by.

That is really what I am trying to say. 0W weights are there to increase mileage and to work in cold climates. It's a great jack-of-all-trades oil that it's hard to go wrongbut with a healthy does of skepticism look at how you drive.

If you live in a hot climate and drive hard during hot days, then 0W-40 seems like the smarter choice. For me, I went with 5W-40 because it gets warm here year round and 0W only brings some possible downsides and little upside for me.

Watch the Redline video, I was surprised about the part where they find some 30W oils that perform below 30W at some temperature and I believe that temperature was 10-20 degrees celcius below what my 1M registers at operating temperature.

I hope it makes sense.

Thank you.

Last edited by nachob; 02-06-2017 at 12:10 AM..
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      02-06-2017, 08:19 AM   #38
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Thank you Nachob for the reply. I like the idea of choosing what fits best over the great jack of all trades.

However, my understanding is that 0W oil is not going to increase consumption and blow-by during warming up time because obviously that's when it's even thicker than it is at its operating temperature.

I did some reading and found a point that 5w is less reliant than 0w on viscosity index improver to achieve any given operating viscosity rating, and thus is more resistant to shear damage, the culprit of permanent loss of viscosity, which is why it gives more protection in the long term.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nachob View Post
while both meet the minimum 30W viscocity it takes quite a bit of time for our cars to get up to operating temperature. Before they achieve the operating temperature, the OW oil is thinner. During this time you could be increasing consumption and blow-by.


That is really what I am trying to say. 0W weights are there to increase mileage and to work in cold climates. It's a great jack-of-all-trades oil that it's hard to go wrongbut with a healthy does of skepticism look at how you drive.
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      02-06-2017, 08:52 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Thank you Nachob for the reply. I like the idea of choosing what fits best over the great jack of all trades.

However, my understanding is that 0W oil is not going to increase consumption and blow-by during warming up time because obviously that's when it's even thicker than it is at its operating temperature.

I did some reading and found a point that 5w is less reliant than 0w on viscosity index improver to achieve any given operating viscosity rating, and thus is more resistant to shear damage, the culprit of permanent loss of viscosity, which is why it gives more protection in the long term.
If you can share something on the link from one of your resources that would be great especially a reputable source. The poster put the redline video on here for example. I don't mind being wrong as long as we get the right information. I would love to see that. My understanding is that 0W is thinner at cold temps than 5W?

Thanks again
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      02-06-2017, 09:13 PM   #40
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This should cover basics, including the fact that motor oil always get thinner when temperature rises. Despite of being very thin, 0W is thickest at cold startup. Therefore, if oil consumption increase and blow-by ever happen, they happen at operating or higher temperature when thinned out.
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto..._explained.htm

Also see this link, great discussion on oil shear, which leads me to the theory - 5W30 is only superior to 0W30 at operating temperature because of its less reliance on VII and thus the greater resistance to shear damage.
https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ub...t&Number=83298

I quote two very informative posts from that thread as below:

Quote:
'Shearing' (and changing hot-viscosity as a result) happens to oils that have viscosity-index improvers added. VIIs are 'strange animals' in that they thicken when hot, just the opposite of all the rest of engine-oil base stocks and additives. They do this by combining into longer molecules and decombining when cooled. However, the long molecules can be cut into parts and apparently these partial molecules don't recombine when hot as well as the original VII molecules do. So as more of these VII molecules get cut into pieces (ie, 'sheared'), the combined oil thins more than it did when new. That's why we talk about 'shearing down' to the next-thinner rating.

Synthetic base stocks have higher inherent viscosity indexes (ie resistance to thinning when hot) than dead-dino basestocks, so the synthetics have either no or at least less VIIs in them. For instance, Red Line's only oil to use VII is their 5W-40.

BTW, VIIs have very little of the other characteristics we value in oil--eg oiliness, film strength, detergent/dispersant, etc.
Quote:
Viscosity Index Improvers (VII) are a polymer of which the molecules are much like a tangle of string. When they are cold the tangle shrinks, when they heat up the tangle expands.

To make a multi-viscosity engine oil, like an SAE 5W-30, you start with a thin "base" oil and add the VII to it.

When the oil is cold the VII shrinks and the thin oil flows easily passed the VII molecules. Viscosity is "resistance to flow" so in this case the oil flows easily so is regarded as thin at a low temperature such as - 25 deg C, eg. SAE 5W.

When the oil heats up, so does the VII and it expands. Now the thin oil (which has also thinned out as the temperature has increased) has difficulty passing the VII molecules, it flows slower, so it is described as being thicker, eg. SAE 30. However this means it is thicker at the high temperature (100 deg C) that engine oil is measured at than the non-VII treated oil would be.

Now VII molecules come in different sizes. Larger molecules are more effective at slowing oil flow, or thickening the oil. So less of a large molecule VII needs to be used to get the same multi-viscosity effect. You have to use more of a smaller molecule VII to get the same oil thickening effect.

BUT, and ain't there always a "but"! The larger VII molecules get "sheared" down easily, that is they get chopped up into smaller VII molecules, and then there isn't enough of them to provide the oil thickening effect. So what was an SAE 15W-40 made from a large molecule VII will become something like a SAE 5W-20 or worse. This is called "permanent shear", it is irreversible.

A multi-grade engine oil made from smaller molecule VIIs will cost more - more VII and it is more expensive - but will resist shear down.

Now where I've said "VII thickens the oil", you should realise that at low temperatures any oil is really thick. What a VII does is slow down the thinning of an oil as temperature rises. Comparing just the thin base oil with the thin base oil plus added VII, the base oil will be slightly thinner at low temperature (the VII will thicken the base oil slightly). As the temperature rises both oils thin out, just that the VII treated oil will thin out less over the same temperature rise, until at 100 deg C the VII treated oil will be considerably thicker than the base oil at 100 deg C.

Then there is "temporary shear". This is where a VII treated oil passes between two moving surfaces, the piston rings and the cylinder wall is a great example. In that narrow gap the VII molecule tends to get stretched out from a tangle into a line and its oil thickening effect is lessened. However when it gets out of that stretch zone, the VII moecule returns again to its tangled state and its oil thickening effect returns. Thats temporary VII shear.
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      02-10-2017, 06:39 PM   #41
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Btw the oil I use is Belgian Castrol 0W30. It made the engine much smoother and I plan to use it in the M2.
Belgian Castrol?
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      02-11-2017, 02:56 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ClothSeats View Post
Btw the oil I use is Belgian Castrol 0W30. It made the engine much smoother and I plan to use it in the M2.
Belgian Castrol?
Castrol 0w30 Made in Belgium
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      02-11-2017, 05:23 AM   #43
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Here in Europe they put this (part 83212365925):

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      04-13-2017, 08:11 AM   #44
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First break in

At dealer now for first break in was told 0W-30. Interesting enough is that they don't have liter bottles of the 0-30 so they sold me the 5W-30 .....
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