[AngryBaby]

Originally Posted by Law

Wow look at all the M purists in this thread!


Non-M mirrors, Non-S engine, Non-M seats, no relatation to BMW Motorsport (i.e., factory race car), etc. = Modern M3

4 doors = not an M3


The logic is real strong in this thread, thanks for the laugh

M mirrors and seats?? Haha, talk about missing the M-point...

[Law]

Originally Posted by AngryBaby

M mirrors and seats?? Haha, talk about missing the M-point...

Also engine & what does M stand for again? Hmm i think it was...///Motorsports

So the number of doors prove your M-point? Don't make me laugh

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by Cuz5150

Great stuff, Now if BMW would get their heads out of their a$$'s and up production numbers so, i can replace my aging fleet. However, BMW is too busy cranking out 228/240 and convertible modes. My local dealer has 3 verts. So, F- U BMW, my next car will be a pre-owned Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio

Uh, uh, uh....thou must exhibit patience when waiting for M2. It's worth the wait.

[m34m]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

The M2 is the M2. But it shouldn't be.

The M2 should still what it originally was instead of BMW Bastardizing the M3 name and applying it to a SEDAN.

It all started when BMW wanted to keep the small luxury car sales crown that they just finally lost this year.

BMW decided to move the 3 series upmarket and make it nearly 5 series sized. They decided to split 3 series and 4 series into different named rather than just creating a larger 4 series model above the 3 series line.

They have moved the 5 up to near 7 series.

They decided to bring in a new model at the bottom and call it 1 series.

The 1 series name didn't take off in the US because it is coupe ONLY and not a sedan.

now they have dumped the 1 series name for 2 series and applied it to what originally was a 3 series.

After multiple generations with the entry level BMW being available in the US in sedans and coupe fork they screwed up and didn't make a small sedan A SECOND time.

Mercedes brings out the cla and wraps up the small luxury sedan line leaving BMW with jacked up model designations from 1 to 6.

I really wanted to follow this but half way through it became kind of convoluted and a bit of a rant. I don't agree with everything BMW has done the last several years however they needed to evolve, adapt and change. I realize change doesn't agree with most people and they are prone to resisting it, however it's unavoidable. Is the preference that BMW stay stuck in the past? Ignore competitors and market forces until they fail and disappear? At the end of the day the world's only independent car maker still makes some fantastic cars.

[Lincoln30]

Originally Posted by omasou

Looks like M3 Adjuster beat me to it and express most of the points I would have.

I think what people are saying and hopefully BMW is listening to is...when we think of the best selling BMW we think of the 3 series...how many years did it win C&D? When we think of M cars we think of the E30M3, E36M3, E46M3, 1M now the M2. I remember the days when PTG raced the E36M3 then E46M3. Then BMW started trying to be everything to everyone...E36M3 vert...E36M3 sedan...Then they had to follow MB and drop an 8 cylinder into our i6 car...yeah it was faster but just like the C43 it was front heavy. And then follow MB again where every model has an AMG, BMW has an M for every model. M use to be about handling...corners...fun...not about spec sheets and HP/TRQ numbers and straight line A to B drag racing...leave that to the 405 crowd.

What I also loved about my E36M3 like my M2 is that there are a few limited number of options. Have you built a M3 or M4? It's crazy the stuff you can add and think you need.

I'm not a total luddite but I enjoy a car that I can change my own brakes, oil, etc. and not having to worry how many house payment the adaptive suspension will cost to replace should it go. That said, on my X5 it makes the SAV handle like its on rails and people cannot believe how it doesn't lean around turns.

So end of day, I guess what we are trying to say is that the M2 is the current BMW production M car that is carrying the M3 soul/crown and what we use to think of when people said M3.

Now if BMW delivers according to rumors a smaller M6 and uses the M2 playbook we may be saying 911 what?

10+ years ago we starting saying that 'M' does not mean 'Motorsport' at BMW anymore, it means 'Marketing'. BMW (and Porsche) have figured out that satisfying the purist among us doesn't make them as much money as selling lots and lots of 'M' cars regardless of how much of an 'M' it really is. MB does the exact same thing with AMG, Heck, I think they started this little pissing match with the having every model available as an AMG model?

I used to be a purist and it's fun to debate what they get right and wrong but in the end, I just need to love driving it and be comfortable in it. For me, the F87 is that BMW for now and it's a BARGAIN!

I've included a pic of the F80 and F87 trunk badges that I have on my garage wall because I noticed the the 3 that Harris pulled out at the end of the video and the font on the F80 is bigger. I roundel is from the F80, bumper got damaged and put a new roundel on it. I think they do it to make her butt look smaller in these badges.

[desertfox73]

Originally Posted by omasou

Looks like M3 Adjuster beat me to it and express most of the points I would have.

I think what people are saying and hopefully BMW is listening to is...when we think of the best selling BMW we think of the 3 series...how many years did it win C&D? When we think of M cars we think of the E30M3, E36M3, E46M3, 1M now the M2. I remember the days when PTG raced the E36M3 then E46M3. Then BMW started trying to be everything to everyone...E36M3 vert...E36M3 sedan...Then they had to follow MB and drop an 8 cylinder into our i6 car...yeah it was faster but just like the C43 it was front heavy. And then follow MB again where every model has an AMG, BMW has an M for every model. M use to be about handling...corners...fun...not about spec sheets and HP/TRQ numbers and straight line A to B drag racing...leave that to the 405 crowd.

What I also loved about my E36M3 like my M2 is that there are a few limited number of options. Have you built a M3 or M4? It's crazy the stuff you can add and think you need.

I'm not a total luddite but I enjoy a car that I can change my own brakes, oil, etc. and not having to worry how many house payment the adaptive suspension will cost to replace should it go. That said, on my X5 it makes the SAV handle like its on rails and people cannot believe how it doesn't lean around turns.

So end of day, I guess what we are trying to say is that the M2 is the current BMW production M car that is carrying the M3 soul/crown and what we use to think of when people said M3.

Now if BMW delivers according to rumors a smaller M6 and uses the M2 playbook we may be saying 911 what?

I hear ya - and yep, I built my M3 so I know how much can be piled on (although I think Porsche still carries the day in that regard...wow).

One day I'll hopefully drive an M2; I wanted one for a while, but opted for the 4-door bigger brother since I have a 2-year-old and baby seats.

Maybe then I'll have a chance to experience what I've always guessed - not that the M2 is what an M3 was/is supposed to be, but that the M2 is what a BMW is supposed to be.

[evanescent03]

Originally Posted by ryem3

So much for the RS3 hype. I'm a little bit surprised at the price comparison. I think a properly kitted RS3 is going to be $10-15k higher than an M2. Not likely to be any discounts on those either for a while.

RS3 will be a bore compared to the M2 for anyone who likes driving hard and doesn't mind a smaller, less accessible back seat. for anyone needing the back seat and wants some pizzaz, but willing to sacrifice the ability to do burnouts and clutch dumps, the RS3 will be a winner. (I have a tuned S3. I wanted it to be a smaller, cheaper replacement for my M3 but it's just not nearly as satisfying. I got stuck with the S3 because it tanked in price so I had to add a camaro 1LE for my RWD kicks).

[AngryBaby]

Originally Posted by Law

Also engine & what does M stand for again? Hmm i think it was...///Motorsports

So the number of doors prove your M-point? Don't make me laugh

I didn't comment on doors. However it was an example of the increased size of the recent M3s compared to, for example, the E46.

I know I'm on the Internet where logic and reason are optional and all that but guys like you just make yourself look bad posting stuff like this.

The F80 M3 is a great car. The F87 M2 is a great car. One sacrifices driving dynamics for luxury. The other sacrifices luxury for dynamics (and price). Both represent different aspects of the Motorsport division and we each buy whichever matches our individual priorities. Maybe some day BMW will nail the best of both worlds.

[F80NJM3]

But is it an M4 though? :

[DS_BMW]

They want him to be to much like Jeremy Clarkson. I would rather him go back to Chris Harris on Cars, not told what to say and how to act.

[Law]

Originally Posted by AngryBaby

I didn't comment on doors. However it was an example of the increased size of the recent M3s compared to, for example, the E46.

I know I'm on the Internet where logic and reason are optional and all that but guys like you just make yourself look bad posting stuff like this.

The F80 M3 is a great car. The F87 M2 is a great car. One sacrifices driving dynamics for luxury. The other sacrifices luxury for dynamics (and price). Both represent different aspects of the Motorsport division and we each buy whichever matches our individual priorities. Maybe some day BMW will nail the best of both worlds.

Well my response was direct toward those who argue the number of doors is a factor in what makes an M an M[3], pointing out the irony in such deliberation.

Perhaps should take a page out of your own book (exercise logic) and read the context of the conversation instead of jumping to conclusions.

[E92Brembo]

Heading on over to the M2 classifieds section....don't mind me folks "whistles"

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Law

Wow look at all the M purists in this thread!


Non-M mirrors, Non-S engine, Non-M seats, no relatation to BMW Motorsport (i.e., factory race car), etc. = Modern M3

4 doors = not an M3


The logic is real strong in this thread, thanks for the laugh

No one said that an M3 shouldn't have 4 doors. Or at least I didn't. I am talking about assigning the M3 name to the sedan model ONLY and creating the M4 name for the coupe only.

BMW should have made 4 series sedans, coupes and convertibles, and left the name 3 series for what is currently the 2 series lineup and they should have retained a sedan.

Then you would still have an M3 coupe , M3 sedan and convertible still and also have an M4 coupe, sedan and convertible.

It would have kept the name M3 assigned to a reasonably small wheelbase, nimble 2 door coupe, which is the way it was for 4 generations . The fact that the M3 30 Jahre is a sedan only is sad.


By adding to the BMW lineup and making a larger 4 series above the original 3 series name .. BMW actually would be better aligned with all its competitors which are selling multiple luxury compact sedan models.



AUDI- A3 introduced below A4

BMW - 3 series ONLY

Mercedes - CLA introduced below C class

Lexus - IS introduced below ES

Acura- ILX below TLX

Infinity- Q50 below Q70


Mercedes used the popularity of the smaller CLA ( sedan only - not Coupe !) along with C class sales to take the Luxury compact class going away this year. BMW has tried to explode the 3 and 4 series into as many variants as possible (gran coupes, GT, etc) and added more models like the 320/420 and while that worked for 2015 they've lost ground this year and likely for the near future.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Law

Well my response was direct toward those who argue the number of doors is a factor in what makes an M an M[3], pointing out the irony in such deliberation.

Perhaps should take a page out of your own book (exercise logic) and read the context of the conversation instead of jumping to conclusions.

Methinks your focus on number of doors might be you jumping to an errant conclusion

[georgere]

Should we really believe him?
I mean, he is just an entertainer. Today he says this car is the best, tomorrow it is another car.
He is just all positive guy about any car. I like his reviews, they are entertaining for sure, but to hear his judgement on cars, after watching multiple of his reviews, there are no bad cars - all cars are great.
So as a hard working person who saved up 50-60k for a car of the person's dream, you better watch motor trend. Those guys at least have some balls to call out some negative things about cars they review.

[Law]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

No one said that an M3 shouldn't have 4 doors. Or at least I didn't. I am talking about assigning the M3 name to the sedan model ONLY and creating the M4 name for the coupe only.

BMW should have made 4 series sedans, coupes and convertibles, and left the name 3 series for what is currently the 2 series lineup and they should have retained a sedan.

Then you would still have an M3 coupe , M3 sedan and convertible still and also have an M4 coupe, sedan and convertible.

It would have kept the name M3 assigned to a reasonably small wheelbase, nimble 2 door coupe, which is the way it was for 4 generations . The fact that the M3 30 Jahre is a sedan only is sad.


By adding to the BMW lineup and making a larger 4 series above the original 3 series name .. BMW actually would be better aligned with all its competitors which are selling multiple luxury compact sedan models.



AUDI- A3 introduced below A4

BMW - 3 series ONLY

Mercedes - CLA introduced below C class

Lexus - IS introduced below ES

Acura- ILX below TLX

Infinity- Q50 below Q70


Mercedes used the popularity of the smaller CLA ( sedan only - not Coupe !) along with C class sales to take the Luxury compact class going away this year. BMW has tried to explode the 3 and 4 series into as many variants as possible (gran coupes, GT, etc) and added more models like the 320/420 and while that worked for 2015 they've lost ground this year and likely for the near future.

Should've, would've, could've.

Too bad for the crybabies in this thread that BMW didn't feel that was appropriate. The M2 is the M2 and the M3 is the M3.

The M2 "could've & should've" had an S-series engine as well. But it is neither an M3 nor does it have a Motorsport engine.

[Phatcat]

Originally Posted by georgere

Should we really believe him?
I mean, he is just an entertainer. Today he says this car is the best, tomorrow it is another car.
He is just all positive guy about any car. I like his reviews, they are entertaining for sure, but to hear his judgement on cars, after watching multiple of his reviews, there are no bad cars - all cars are great.
So as a hard working person who saved up 50-60k for a car of the person's dream, you better watch motor trend. Those guys at least have some balls to call out some negative things about cars they review.

Harris gave a lukewarm on the M4 GTS, got criticized in the M4 forum.

We all pick and chose what we want to believe. A reviewer gave a good review on the car you have or like "see I told you, it's a great car". Gave a bad review? "The guy doesn't know how to drive, or he doesn't own the car, what the f|%# does he know."

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Law

Also engine & what does M stand for again? Hmm i think it was...///Motorsports

So the number of doors prove your M-point? Don't make me laugh

http://www.bmw-motorsport.com/en/cars/bmw-m235ir.html

The name of that site is BMW-Motorsport (without the 's' thank you)
and in that cup they use the inferior N55 engine in a car that looks a bit like an M2



Cheers
Robin

[Kolyan2k]

The key words in the video are "Get the manual"

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by Kolyan2k

The key words in the video are "Get the manual"

This model was born and bred for the 6MT.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

No one said that an M3 shouldn't have 4 doors. Or at least I didn't. I am talking about assigning the M3 name to the sedan model ONLY and creating the M4 name for the coupe only.

BMW should have made 4 series sedans, coupes and convertibles, and left the name 3 series for what is currently the 2 series lineup and they should have retained a sedan.

Then you would still have an M3 coupe , M3 sedan and convertible still and also have an M4 coupe, sedan and convertible.

It would have kept the name M3 assigned to a reasonably small wheelbase, nimble 2 door coupe, which is the way it was for 4 generations . The fact that the M3 30 Jahre is a sedan only is sad.


By adding to the BMW lineup and making a larger 4 series above the original 3 series name .. BMW actually would be better aligned with all its competitors which are selling multiple luxury compact sedan models.



AUDI- A3 introduced below A4

BMW - 3 series ONLY

Mercedes - CLA introduced below C class

Lexus - IS introduced below ES

Acura- ILX below TLX

Infinity- Q50 below Q70


Mercedes used the popularity of the smaller CLA ( sedan only - not Coupe !) along with C class sales to take the Luxury compact class going away this year. BMW has tried to explode the 3 and 4 series into as many variants as possible (gran coupes, GT, etc) and added more models like the 320/420 and while that worked for 2015 they've lost ground this year and likely for the near future.

See, what you are forgetting, is that BMW had the 6 series roughly around the same time as the first 3 series. The 6 series (e24), replaced the E9 coupe.
And then they later in had the 8 series. Both the 6 series and the 8 series are coupes, and even numbers. And one could even say, that the 8 series was a 7 series coupe, just like how the 6 series became the 5 series coupe. So by logic, a
4 series would be the 3 series coupe, and the 2 series would be the 1 series coupe, which in Europe it technically is.

Yes, the A3 is below the A4, the A3 has been around since 1996. The B5 A4 was created to competed against the 3 series and replace the Audi 80. Production back in 1995 But, the A5 was a coupe version of the A4. And the A5 Liftback is Audi's version of the 4 series Gran Coupe or what Mercedes has popularized as the "4 door Coupe" with the first gen CLS, which was a E class in fancy clothes.

While the IS was positioned under the ES, but it was also to be under the GS as a 3 series competitor---entry level RWD sporty car. Even the I.S. Stands for Intelligent Sport. The ES has been a mainstay, the entry level car that was based on the Camry (now Avalon), but then when the IS came along, as a "3 series fighter".

The ILX was introduced after Honda/Acura discontinued the TSX (Euro Honda Accord), and combined the TSX and TL into the TLX. So, the ILX became the entry level sedan that the TSX was (RSX, TSX, TL, RL).

And yes, the CLA is the sedan Mercedes developed to be under the C class.

And BMW's Chinese only (for now) FWD 1 series sedan was developed for the same reason.

What has been forgotten is that the for all the cars, Audi A4 and up, BMW 3 and up, Mercedes C and up, have grown to the point where there is a need for a segment under them. So that means that Audi is now producing a car simila in size to their first gen A4 with their A3. Mercedes now is producing a car similar in size to their early 2000s C Class. And BMW has made a 2 series coupe that is similar in size to the E46 coupe. They effed up previously, by making a 1 series coupe and 2-4 door hatch for Europe.

If BMW had stuck to "their logic", then when they developed the 1st gen 1 series, it would have been a sedan and hatchback, and created the 2 series as a coupe. Therefore, they would have had a jump on Mercedes, but not on Audi, as Audi has had the A3 since 1996. And then this current gen 2 series may have gotten a 2 series GC. Or maybe not, because a RWD 4 door coupe would take away from the 3 series and 4GC.

This is the problem with creating niches, they become convoluted bitches to fill.

[Robin_NL]

1,2,3,4,5
I just want to drive!

Cheers
Robin