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      11-21-2017, 11:49 AM   #1
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BMW Shift Feel

After driving a couple other cars over the past few weeks a question has crossed my mind. Why do BMW manual transmissions have such a bizarre, unrewarding feel? Do they make them comfortable so the old man with elbow issues can still enjoy it with out discomfort? Is it a lack of care from the Bavarian's who make the car? Is this a way of pushing people towards DCT? Cost cuttings? My E92 was mushy, and my M2 is soft and unnoticeable. Only giving me the sensory stimulus once in a while. I drove an E36 M3 (whose clutch left my calf exhausted) , and that was good, but that was also the BMW of 20 years ago.

I drove a GT350 a couple weeks ago, and the TREMEC 6 speed unit felt like working the bolt on my Grandpas old Lee Enfield. But even more surprising is the shift feel in my 2015 STi. Simply makes you smile, rowing the gears. And that car is a POS, already rattling with 14000km.

I know there is different SS kits available, but all of them seem to have issues with apparent customer dissatisfaction, at least around here that is.

So I thought I'd open the discussion on what everyone's take is on this
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      11-21-2017, 01:32 PM   #2
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I had E46 M3 MT and now M2. Shifter feel remains the same. It's a BMW thing.
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      11-21-2017, 03:10 PM   #3
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I have an M235 but it has the same tranny and shifter. I also had a 2012 WRX which used the same direct shift linkage as the 6MT STI. What you need to consider here is it's a German car and they go to great lengths to reduce NVH. Such care is not used by Subaru or Ford. The TREMEC is great, but it also has a lot of vibration, notchiness, and stiffness. Same goes for the Subaru direct linkage shifters. When you reduce NVH, you typically mute some of the feel. That's what happens with the 6MT in your M2. I've owned and driven a lot of manuals over the years and find the 6MT in my M235 to be quite nice for a daily driven manual. As the tranny has broken in, the shift feel is smooth, pretty direct, robust feeling, and not overly notchy. I also swapped out the stock shift knob for the smaller M Performance shift knob. The smaller knob along with the lack on insulating material on the knob results in more directness, better shift feel, more shift weight, and a slightly reduced throw (shorter and narrower knob = reduced lever throw). I'm quite happy with the change it made. I'd never go back to the stock shift knob.

If you like the shifter in the GT350 or STI and don't care about increased NVH, you'd probably be quite happy with one of the aftermarket shifters available for the M2.

My biggest gripe with the 6MT is the clutch pedal weight and take up during normal driving. The clutch pedal is light and somewhat numb thus I find it difficult to feel the catch point. The clutch pedal also has an excessive throw and it's resting point is 1" above the brake pedal. A clutch stop helps take out some of the travel on the lower end of the pedal travel, but does nothing to improve the weight, gauging the catch point, and pedal resting point. All these factors compound to create a somewhat difficult manual to drive smoothly. During hard driving and launching the car, I have no issues. The Ultimate Clutch Pedal is high on my mod list (reduce pedal throw, more pedal weight).
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      11-21-2017, 03:34 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mWHO View Post
After driving a couple other cars over the past few weeks a question has crossed my mind. Why do BMW manual transmissions have such a bizarre, unrewarding feel? Do they make them comfortable so the old man with elbow issues can still enjoy it with out discomfort? Is it a lack of care from the Bavarian's who make the car? Is this a way of pushing people towards DCT? Cost cuttings? My E92 was mushy, and my M2 is soft and unnoticeable. Only giving me the sensory stimulus once in a while. I drove an E36 M3 (whose clutch left my calf exhausted) , and that was good, but that was also the BMW of 20 years ago.

I drove a GT350 a couple weeks ago, and the TREMEC 6 speed unit felt like working the bolt on my Grandpas old Lee Enfield. But even more surprising is the shift feel in my 2015 STi. Simply makes you smile, rowing the gears. And that car is a POS, already rattling with 14000km.

I know there is different SS kits available, but all of them seem to have issues with apparent customer dissatisfaction, at least around here that is.

So I thought I'd open the discussion on what everyone's take is on this
I'm not one of the dissatisfied M2 customers of SSKs to whom you refer. I've installed an Ultimate Clutch Pedal and a UUC SSK, and the entire shifting experience is significantly improved in my opinion, from foot to hand. Pedal resistance is now actually noticeable, pedal throw is shorter, stick knob is lower, stick feels notchy and slotted, making engagement very positive and shortening the throw as well. Great mods, as far as I am concerned.
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      11-21-2017, 03:38 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
I have an M235 but it has the same tranny and shifter. I also had a 2012 WRX which used the same direct shift linkage as the 6MT STI. What you need to consider here is it's a German car and they go to great lengths to reduce NVH. Such care is not used by Subaru or Ford. The TREMEC is great, but it also has a lot of vibration, notchiness, and stiffness. Same goes for the Subaru direct linkage shifters. When you reduce NVH, you typically mute some of the feel. That's what happens with the 6MT in your M2. I've owned and driven a lot of manuals over the years and find the 6MT in my M235 to be quite nice for a daily driven manual. As the tranny has broken in, the shift feel is smooth, pretty direct, robust feeling, and not overly notchy. I also swapped out the stock shift knob for the smaller M Performance shift knob. The smaller knob along with the lack on insulating material on the knob results in more directness, better shift feel, more shift weight, and a slightly reduced throw (shorter and narrower knob = reduced lever throw). I'm quite happy with the change it made. I'd never go back to the stock shift knob.

If you like the shifter in the GT350 or STI and don't care about increased NVH, you'd probably be quite happy with one of the aftermarket shifters available for the M2.

My biggest gripe with the 6MT is the clutch pedal weight and take up during normal driving. The clutch pedal is light and somewhat numb thus I find it difficult to feel the catch point. The clutch pedal also has an excessive throw and it's resting point is 1" above the brake pedal. A clutch stop helps take out some of the travel on the lower end of the pedal travel, but does nothing to improve the weight, gauging the catch point, and pedal resting point. All these factors compound to create a somewhat difficult manual to drive smoothly. During hard driving and launching the car, I have no issues. The Ultimate Clutch Pedal is high on my mod list (reduce pedal throw, more pedal weight).
So when people talk about the great shift feel of Porsche, is that simply what more money gets you? I can't see them caring less about NVH.

Are you saying those gripes people have with after market kits, its just the feel is less refined and more noisier much like the Subaru's?

I'm surprised at your thinking that our 2 series are hard to drive smoothly; I have stalled my two BMWs maybe 7 times (I can remember it, its so infrequent) whereas my OEM STi clutch, it was almost daily, and the clutch scent was very prominent. Now I have an ACT race clutch (as part of a built motor) which is a leg workout in its self, but even yesterday I stalled it twice in low speed maneuvering.
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      11-21-2017, 03:41 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceM View Post
I'm not one of the dissatisfied M2 customers of SSKs to whom you refer. I've installed an Ultimate Clutch Pedal and a UUC SSK, and the entire shifting experience is significantly improved in my opinion, from foot to hand. Pedal resistance is now actually noticeable, pedal throw is shorter, stick knob is lower, stick feels notchy and slotted, making engagement very positive and shortening the throw as well. Great mods, as far as I am concerned.
Did you retain the OEM knob? Changing them on most cars it something that for whatever reason irks me. What was the install time?
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      11-21-2017, 04:03 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mWHO View Post
So when people talk about the great shift feel of Porsche, is that simply what more money gets you? I can't see them caring less about NVH.

Are you saying those gripes people have with after market kits, its just the feel is less refined and more noisier much like the Subaru's?

I'm surprised at your thinking that our 2 series are hard to drive smoothly; I have stalled my two BMWs maybe 7 times (I can remember it, its so infrequent) whereas my OEM STi clutch, it was almost daily, and the clutch scent was very prominent. Now I have an ACT race clutch (as part of a built motor) which is a leg workout in its self, but even yesterday I stalled it twice in low speed maneuvering.

I had a 2009 911, a 2006 S2000, a few other older not as fun manual cars, I've driven tons of manuals over the years but only a few BMWs, including an M2 recently...

The 911 had a good feel but was notchier than I ever would have expected, it wasn't bad, I got that satisfaction from shifting the OP says he lacks, but it was just notchier than a $90k car should have been in my opinion.

The S2000 has a perfect feel when shifting, if you haven't driven an S2000 or manual NSX, go drive one, the shifting is as perfect as it gets.

The M2 shifting was almost too smooth, definitely smoother than my 911, and so smooth I almost couldn't feel it engage into gear. The S2000 was smooth but you could also feel it click into gear, very satisfying. I was curious if most thought the M2 smoothness was a good thing or if others wanted a little more satisfaction where they could feel it click into gear.

Interesting to hear OP have similar thoughts as me.
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      11-21-2017, 05:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mWHO View Post
So when people talk about the great shift feel of Porsche, is that simply what more money gets you? I can't see them caring less about NVH.

Are you saying those gripes people have with after market kits, its just the feel is less refined and more noisier much like the Subaru's?

I'm surprised at your thinking that our 2 series are hard to drive smoothly; I have stalled my two BMWs maybe 7 times (I can remember it, its so infrequent) whereas my OEM STi clutch, it was almost daily, and the clutch scent was very prominent. Now I have an ACT race clutch (as part of a built motor) which is a leg workout in its self, but even yesterday I stalled it twice in low speed maneuvering.
Mid and rear engine Porsches have cable actuated shifters. It's easy to dial out the NVH and create notichness with those setups.

Yes, I do find the 6MT in these cars to be difficult to drive smoothly. I'm not talking about stalling. I'm talking about getting off the line in a very very smooth manner and executing a very very smooth 1-2 shift. In any other car I've owned, doing that is quite easy. In this car, it takes quite a bit more concentration. The pedal catch point is hard to feel (seems to move around a bit, likely due to the self-adjusting clutch, the dual mass flywheel doesn't help either), the pedal is light, and the BMW nannies are at work trying to help you manage the throttle when the rpms are really low when starting out in 1st. if you haven't already noticed, you can be in 1st and slowly let out the clutch and the rpms will automatically rise to 1100-1200rpms, essentially allowing you to start out in 1st with no throttle application. That's fine if you're crawling in bumper to bumper traffic, but the system gets in the way when you're trying to leave the line at a quicker pace. This car requires little throttle to leave the line and anything over 2,000rpms when leaving the line is quite excessive in daily driving. The sweet spot seems to be 1500-1800rpms and then add the clutch. Even then, the clutch can catch too quickly resulting in a minor buck or two. As someone that's been driving manuals since the 1980s, it's annoying to me that the 6MT is difficult to drive smoothly entering 1st and the 1-2 shift. Everything else is butter. I'm not alone in this. it's a very common complaint for those that have decades of manual driving experience under their belt.

I really wish the pedal had the effort my 2012 WRX with a stock clutch did. That pedal felt twice as heavy and was very easy to gauge the catch point.
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      11-21-2017, 05:04 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurbo311 View Post

The M2 shifting was almost too smooth, definitely smoother than my 911, and so smooth I almost couldn't feel it engage into gear. The S2000 was smooth but you could also feel it click into gear, very satisfying. I was curious if most thought the M2 smoothness was a good thing or if others wanted a little more satisfaction where they could feel it click into gear.

Interesting to hear OP have similar thoughts as me.
You should try the MP shift knob. It makes a satisfying audible snick when you go into gear. You can feel the stops a bit better as well. Everything feels better with such a simple change.
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      11-21-2017, 05:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mWHO View Post
Did you retain the OEM knob? Changing them on most cars it something that for whatever reason irks me. What was the install time?
My shop did it. Said it was a pain in the ass, but doable. I think it took them a couple of hours because they had to move some stuff around, but I can't remember what they had to move.

I have the MPerformance CF knob with boot, and they retained that in the install.
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      11-22-2017, 12:36 AM   #11
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You guys don't realize how much better this transmission is than some of the other performance cars on the market. I had a 2012 TTRS and it was horrible. Gate spacing was so close together it was super-easy to moneyshift, and the action was very rubbery and vague (cable-actuated). Clutch was heavy as hell and impossible to find the actual bite point.

In comparison, the BMW has been absolutely wonderful.
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      11-22-2017, 04:05 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blurbo311 View Post
The S2000 has a perfect feel when shifting, if you haven't driven an S2000 or manual NSX, go drive one, the shifting is as perfect as it gets.

+ 1
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      11-22-2017, 11:12 AM   #13
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+ 1
The NSX (old-style) has the best manual tranny I have ever driven.
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      11-22-2017, 12:44 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceM View Post
The NSX (old-style) has the best manual tranny I have ever driven.
+1. S2000, NSX (NA1/NA2), and ITR (DC2) have the best manual transmissions I've ever rowed. The M2's manual is really mushy by comparison, tho there's definitely worse ones. The manuals in my previous 370Z and RX-7 were much better in my opinion.
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      11-23-2017, 12:09 AM   #15
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The NSX (old-style) has the best manual tranny I have ever driven.
Absolutely mate.

Have you driven a CAE ultimate shifter.

https://cae-racing.de/CAE-Ultra-Shifter_49
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      11-23-2017, 05:41 AM   #16
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Owning a 1994 NSX and don't think the shift is that great. Perfect short throw but too stiff. Car has 70k miles so perhaps not fully broken in yet
Try the AZ6 box found in the RX8, MX5, Altezza etc =
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      11-23-2017, 07:23 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mWHO View Post
After driving a couple other cars over the past few weeks a question has crossed my mind. Why do BMW manual transmissions have such a bizarre, unrewarding feel? Do they make them comfortable so the old man with elbow issues can still enjoy it with out discomfort? Is it a lack of care from the Bavarian's who make the car? Is this a way of pushing people towards DCT? Cost cuttings? My E92 was mushy, and my M2 is soft and unnoticeable. Only giving me the sensory stimulus once in a while. I drove an E36 M3 (whose clutch left my calf exhausted) , and that was good, but that was also the BMW of 20 years ago.
Ik have the OEM shifter + the shorter, heavier UCP clutch pedal... Loving this set-up... In the past I hated the OEM M2 clutch pedal (to long / to soft).
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      11-23-2017, 09:27 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seetohey View Post
+1. S2000, NSX (NA1/NA2), and ITR (DC2) have the best manual transmissions I've ever rowed. The M2's manual is really mushy by comparison, tho there's definitely worse ones. The manuals in my previous 370Z and RX-7 were much better in my opinion.
I know the Honda fanboy talk is starting to come out, but the DC5 (my previous car) was the best manual I’ve ever felt. Especially after you put in a short shifter.
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      11-24-2017, 09:13 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Mid and rear engine Porsches have cable actuated shifters. It's easy to dial out the NVH and create notichness with those setups.

Yes, I do find the 6MT in these cars to be difficult to drive smoothly. I'm not talking about stalling. I'm talking about getting off the line in a very very smooth manner and executing a very very smooth 1-2 shift.
The 1-2 shift has been problematic in every BMW Ive owned. We used to be able to improve it somewhat by eliminating the CDV.. However from looking at the parts listing, there doesnt appear to be one in our M2s. The only way to get a smooth 1-2 shift is to slip the clutch a little more.. Barring that, its a bmw characteristic.. Or is it a 'feature' .
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      11-24-2017, 01:07 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hasan Shaikh View Post
Absolutely mate.

Have you driven a CAE ultimate shifter.

https://cae-racing.de/CAE-Ultra-Shifter_49
Nope. Looks great for a track set-up, but that knob is super high for a DD, looks like...
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      11-25-2017, 03:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boostm3 View Post
The 1-2 shift has been problematic in every BMW Ive owned. We used to be able to improve it somewhat by eliminating the CDV.. However from looking at the parts listing, there doesnt appear to be one in our M2s. The only way to get a smooth 1-2 shift is to slip the clutch a little more.. Barring that, its a bmw characteristic.. Or is it a 'feature' .
wat? I don't slip the clutch on my 1-2 shift and its butter.

That said the steering feel on this car is quite good. It's the shifter linkage that has a bit more flex than wanted. Sure its not as direct, but I still prefer it over a 996.2 911 C2s

My reference points are a AP1/AP2 S2K and 2015 BRZ
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      11-25-2017, 03:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cookiesowns View Post
wat? I don't slip the clutch on my 1-2 shift and its butter.

That said the steering feel on this car is quite good. It's the shifter linkage that has a bit more flex than wanted. Sure its not as direct, but I still prefer it over a 996.2 911 C2s

My reference points are a AP1/AP2 S2K and 2015 BRZ

Youre telling me you can execute a smooth 1-2 shift on 3/4 to full acceleration without slipping the clutch at all? Youd be the first I ever saw in a recent BMW! And by slipping the clutch, I mean keeping the clutch pedal slightly depressed for longer while youre getting hard into the throttle than youd want to if there were no 1-2 shift problem. Cause thats the only way to execute a smooth BMW 1-2 shift.
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