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      07-01-2017, 12:54 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrKevM5 View Post
373 is the uncorrected number. As stated on the bottom of the graph sheet, divide by .80 for crank numbers (20% loss).
This below is what I believe your car put down last winter on dinan stage one with all current hardwares but short of bigger turbo. Is that done on the same dyno machine? I noticed 357 is a SAE corrected number but uncorrected number probably wouldn't have been even lower since it's run in winter.

Is it truly less than 20whp that your butt dyno says jumping to P2?

I'm not being hard, I am only serious when it comes to telling true and false on power delivery.
Different Dyno. But it is much stronger to redline. Was it worth the extra cost for the seemingly modest increase over Stage 1? Debatable, but I'm happy.
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      07-01-2017, 08:09 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN_M2 View Post
So I have just been reading mostly and not chipped in just trying to learn as much as I can.

I dyno's the car on a 90+ degree day in Florida. Mods at that moment were the Fabspeed Sport Cat Downpipe and the Bypass exhaust. I have changed up that setup since then. But my numbers on the Dynojet were 358whp and 407tq. Next mod will be an intercooler upgrade and will dyno with my new exhaust setup which replaced the Fabspeed Bypass with the Resonator Delete and Free Flow Exhaust from DINAN.

U make more than Dinan Stage4 M2
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      07-01-2017, 08:30 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2s63tu View Post

U make more than Dinan Stage4 M2
Thats why I don't trust many dyno's.. a month before that I did pulls on a local Super Flow dyno and laid down 380whp and 415tq.. very unrealistic..

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      07-03-2017, 04:20 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by BAN_M2 View Post
Thats why I don't trust many dyno's.. a month before that I did pulls on a local Super Flow dyno and laid down 380whp and 415tq.. very unrealistic..

I agree i dont either, in this case SuperFlow (not a Dynojet) so we dont know how it reads. If you put down 380/415 stock with your bolt ons then it seems they read super happy and or configured the dyno wrong. Either way, I only really look at Dynojet data as its the most similar across the country.

DrKevM5 i fail to understand how does a SAE correction factor computes to 466 ?

Uncorrected: What car put down that moment/condition/octane


The SAE baseline values are:
------------------------------------
Ps = 29.235 inHg
Ts = 77.0 deg F (534 deg R)
Pv = 0 inHg (dry air, no humidity)

Standard correction:
29.92 in/hg.
68 degree temp
0 percent humidity

What this all means is that "Standard" will give you 2.6 percent better numbers (very popular for the import crowd). The example the magazine gave was a Vette making 412 (SAE corrected hp). With the Standard correction it made 423. All that you will have to do is multiply your "Standard rwhp" by .974 This should equal SAE (the one everyone uses).

There are few standards used in the dyno world for gathering HP and TQ numbers, UNCORRECTED, SAE and STD. Uncorrected is NEVER accepted in the world of dynoing and tuning as it does not factor in any weather conditions etc.

A lot of people have been asking about SAE .vs STD Dyno numbers so I thought this would help. Most people know that showing STD numbers read higher but not many know why. SAE represents more realistic standard conditions, STD artificially boosts numbers.

Identifying Your Correction Factor:
Dynojet:
If you look at a dynojet graph in the upper right corner, you will see where it says the correction method being used. The options are SAE, STD, Uncorrected and a few not needed for discussion. You will also notice a smooth factor (up to 5) which dyno operators use to make the power curves and any other data displayed, such as AFR, seem more accurate and smooth. You will also see AFR graphs scaled DOWN to hide flaws in the curve.

Before Dinan stage4 your car put down 354-357whp/393-401wtq and after in same CF although Dyno location (why) ? But same dyno type. Only 373/416 (which IMO doesn't justify or makes any sense on Dinan Stg4 promises)
I'm sure its not your fault nor your car, its the Dinan itself and BIG Pile of Hype (but doesn't meet)

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      07-04-2017, 06:14 AM   #49
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It's unfortunate that too many "in-the-know" enthusiasts are solely concerned with peak numbers. Obviously, area under the curve gains are what we feel when driving. Auf Deutsche's provided his dyno sheet that showed a mid range gain of ~50 whp over stock which increases to about 75 whp in the upper rpm range. These gains aren't hype, but rather substantial butt dyno gains.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1371668

Post 56
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      07-04-2017, 10:29 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stage IV View Post
It's unfortunate that too many "in-the-know" enthusiasts are solely concerned with peak numbers. Obviously, area under the curve gains are what we feel when driving. Auf Deutsche's provided his dyno sheet that showed a mid range gain of ~50 whp over stock which increases to about 75 whp in the upper rpm range. These gains aren't hype, but rather substantial butt dyno gains.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1371668

Post 56
You must be really confused, you're prob a Dinan sheep.
Nobody is arguing Peak Numbers, what we're helping some people to understand is DELTA gains. You know the BEFORE and AFTER on THEIR sole CAR. Whats the point of paying 2k+ for less than 60whp/60wtq gains?

The Dyno Auf Deutsche's posted here http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...1&postcount=56 has a LOUSY Area Under Curve

stock: 319/361
DP: 337/384 (18whp/23wtq peak gains over stock)
stage 4/DP: 382/408 (63whp/47wtq peak gains over stock)

If you're happy with under 400whp for Stg4 that's ok, its your money but there are members with M2 stock turbo making 390whp/440wtq range on REAL ECU Flash/Remap & Reliable. Heck, even saw a member here bryan_f22 on EnzoRacing ECU/Remap making 409whp 494wtq and still reliable as it seems he tracks his car quite often.

PS. I am referring to Dynojet numbers

What AREA UNDER CURVE really looks like

Stg2 w/ DP 91 oct



Expect higher numbers with 93 oct.
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      07-06-2017, 11:07 AM   #51
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very reliable, all i do is add fuel. It runs hard everyday and its not even a m2, its a 235...
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      07-06-2017, 09:43 PM   #52
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So is it or not achievable?

Initially it looked like it wasnt possible to hit 400whp and ~450tq on stock turbo. But with FBO and perhaps a fuel system upgrade to handle the push might be possible? Obviously with a custom tune.
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      07-06-2017, 10:51 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BAN_M2 View Post
So is it or not achievable?

Initially it looked like it wasnt possible to hit 400whp and ~450tq on stock turbo. But with FBO and perhaps a fuel system upgrade to handle the push might be possible? Obviously with a custom tune.
With stock turbo, fueling isn't really the bottleneck until you use ethanol.

400whp requires 350lb*ft@6000rpm. That's all about how octane holds up boost and IAT.

Realistically, 50-60whp is about as much as you can expect to gain from flash tune without using meth and ethanol. To hit 400whp really depends on the baseline number you use.
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      07-07-2017, 09:39 AM   #54
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So FBO and flash tunes can reliably make 400 whp without any limp modes on track? I'm tempted.
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      07-07-2017, 11:29 AM   #55
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Fueling is the limitation, even with the stock turbo. We made crazy torque with the stock turbo, and then hit limp mode because the HPFP couldn't keep up (you can see the power and torque immediately drop). We have countless hours invested in our M2 tuning. I've gone to the track with maps that make about 400whp only to have the car limp out 2 laps in. The same file will never see limp mode on the street with me driving, but it doesn't stand a chance on the track.

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      07-07-2017, 12:25 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David@ActiveAutowerke View Post
Fueling is the limitation, even with the stock turbo. We made crazy torque with the stock turbo, and then hit limp mode because the HPFP couldn't keep up (you can see the power and torque immediately drop). We have countless hours invested in our M2 tuning. I've gone to the track with maps that make about 400whp only to have the car limp out 2 laps in. The same file will never see limp mode on the street with me driving, but it doesn't stand a chance on the track.

[IMG]https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/586/31...826cb2d8_b.jpg[/IMG]
David,

When we first tried tuning m2 last winter, we did see a few flash tuned m2 misfire from 5k rpm. Frustrated, we had to go back to piggyback solutions and deal with heat and timing instead.

We then come to the conclusion it's all in the tune - if you crank up boost hard like that, you have to run very rich to stay safe, so fuel pump fails of course. You will want to find a sweet spot of boost/AFR and make a good timing table, then you'd see, which i believe you already did, that it's the octane that can not handle the heat and boost and give up first

When you have meth to assist fueling and cooling, ethanol can be used a little bit, so boost gets much higher, to redline. That's when fueling become the real problem.

Yes, fueling will be eventually a limitation but when properly tuned, fueling would be way after octane, heat and even the de facto strong EWG turbo.
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      07-07-2017, 12:27 PM   #57
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FBO and flash tune will get you close to 400whp, probably around the 390-395 range with a n55 on a 235. Than we start to debate your fuel choice. E85/93/ms100/ms109. All have their own pros and cons. On track, I run ms100 with 93 just to keep the cost down as much as I can, since ms100 is 12-15$ a gallon. A 5 gallon drum of VP ms100 is like 90$.

Tip* keep the gas over 1/4 tank when on track or you will go into limp mode. The fuel pump starves, so just keep an eye on it.

The biggest bottleneck with tuning is fuel delivery, you can get lpfp upgrade to help deliver more E85 or more Ms100/09 but its not a replacement for meth or PI.

The challenge with m2 vs a regs n55 235 is the overboost. On a stock car, this is a cool feature, but once you start tuning, this becomes a big issue.

your stock turbos can handle up to 425whp. When overboost kicks in, is too much for the stock fuel system and starts to misfire.
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      07-07-2017, 12:42 PM   #58
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Aside from going into limp mode on the track, you can run into the
same fuel system limitations doing long straight line pulls as well.

The most basic method of determining horsepower is by measuring
airflow as an engine is essentially an air-pump. 400WHP on the stock
turbos requires spinning the factory turbos outside of their optimal
rotational speed which causes other medium-to-long term issues.

Everyone loves the idea of being able to say they are in 400-Club,
until they get beat by a more reasonable/lesser "peak number" car
with a more consistent/smooth/reliable delta.
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      07-07-2017, 12:44 PM   #59
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Bryan_22,

We're basically on the same page. Tuning properly, we'll be looking at octane (race fuel or ethanol) at cross road, before really think about fueling upgrade.

BTW, no worries on overboost, it will be disabled in a flash. Even with piggyback, unplugging MAF will do the trick.
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      07-07-2017, 01:33 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post
David,

When we first tried tuning m2 last winter, we did see a few flash tuned m2 misfire from 5k rpm. Frustrated, we had to go back to piggyback solutions and deal with heat and timing instead.

We then come to the conclusion it's all in the tune - if you crank up boost hard like that, you have to run very rich to stay safe, so fuel pump fails of course. You will want to find a sweet spot of boost/AFR and make a good timing table, then you'd see, which i believe you already did, that it's the octane that can not handle the heat and boost and give up first

When you have meth to assist fueling and cooling, ethanol can be used a little bit, so boost gets much higher, to redline. That's when fueling become the real problem.

Yes, fueling will be eventually a limitation but when properly tuned, fueling would be way after octane, heat and even the de facto strong EWG turbo.
You're right, to get more power at the higher RPMs heat and octane are the limitation. Ideally we'd like to ramp the boost down low more than we do now, but the fuel system simply can't handle it. As stated in our other thread, we spent a lot of time finding that sweet spot that would allow us to make consistent, reliable power with the stock turbo and fuel system. We know the stock turbo is good for 500+lb/ft but it does suffer at higher boost levels at higher RPMs. We're currently installing a Pure Stg2 with Fuel-It PI on an M235iR racecar, in stock trim it made similar power to our M2 so I'll post the dyno comparisons once it's completed and tuned.
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      07-27-2017, 09:57 PM   #61
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How are you guys hosting the pictures? Went to the dyno today and want to uplod my graph and photobucket does not work anymore.
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      07-28-2017, 03:53 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J3STER View Post
How are you guys hosting the pictures? Went to the dyno today and want to uplod my graph and photobucket does not work anymore.
You can upload your photos to your own gallery on your profile page.
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      07-31-2017, 11:15 AM   #63
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You can upload your photos to your own gallery on your profile page.
Thanks! Sean WRT has also been extremely helpful! I sent him the Dyno graph on email with mods list in case it did not work on my end.

Stock tune Car

361whp 396tq STD smoothing 3, also left the AFR curve so people can see. It's missing from most Dyno's I have seen posted.

Mods:
Active Autowerke catless downpipe
Dyno performed on 4th gear STD smoothing 3 (I have a SAE one but still need to download it, its only like 7whp less I forgot the torque)
She'll v-power 93oct
97F and super high humidity day in Miami FL
Attached Images
 

Last edited by J3STER; 07-31-2017 at 11:22 AM..
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      07-31-2017, 05:43 PM   #64
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I was just about to post your graph and saw this.

On smoothing 5 it should be 350+whp, which is legit for a DP only setup.

You can use a tune to take more advantages of your catless downpipe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by J3STER View Post
Thanks! Sean WRT has also been extremely helpful! I sent him the Dyno graph on email with mods list in case it did not work on my end.

Stock tune Car

361whp 396tq STD smoothing 3, also left the AFR curve so people can see. It's missing from most Dyno's I have seen posted.

Mods:
Active Autowerke catless downpipe
Dyno performed on 4th gear STD smoothing 3 (I have a SAE one but still need to download it, its only like 7whp less I forgot the torque)
She'll v-power 93oct
97F and super high humidity day in Miami FL
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      07-31-2017, 05:56 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanWRT View Post

On smoothing 5 it should be 350+whp, which is legit for a DP only setup.

You can use a tune to take more advantages of your catless downpipe.
Agreed. Nice baseline. Add a cheap but reliable sport tuner and he should peak around 375....on smoothing 5.

Unless they really can't deal with the added decibels, I'd encourage anyone to install a high flow catted DP on their M2. It really wakes up the car.
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      07-31-2017, 10:49 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stage IV View Post
Agreed. Nice baseline. Add a cheap but reliable sport tuner and he should peak around 375....on smoothing 5.

Unless they really can't deal with the added decibels, I'd encourage anyone to install a high flow catted DP on their M2. It really wakes up the car.
I already have the catless downpipe installed and the added sound with the faster apool is very much appreciated, soon intercooler will follow and then finally a tune for the ECU.
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