[Spook410]

There are many that wish the M2 were a CSL model. NVH doesn't matter.. only performance. However, there are some of us, likely a small minority, that wish they had left the 25 pounds of sound deadening in so we can enjoy conversation as we drive. Just remember that the M2 is supposed to be both a DD and an occasional track car. It should not fail at either but it's looking like it's going to be a pretty raw DD.

[King_Slayer]

Its hilarious reading the different perspectives from different people (in a good way). Some want quiet, some want loud, some want stiff, some want soft, some don't like this, while others love that, etc etc. I think BMW did a pretty good job putting this little car together considering the many differences of opinions and preferences.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by King_Slayer

Its hilarious reading the different perspectives from different people (in a good way). Some want quiet, some want loud, some want stiff, some want soft, some don't like this, while others love that, etc etc. I think BMW did a pretty good job putting this little car together considering the many differences of opinions and preferences.

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

There will ALWAYS be someone who prefers something another way. It is impossible to make a car exactly what everyone wants. My view has always been that if I don't like the car because it doesn't suit me (although it may suit others), I'll just move on to something that does... rather than stick around bitching about it Not saying that's what happens in this thread but it does happen a lot with car forums

[ChrisK]

Originally Posted by giger

I can't get my head around all these people that think you should be driving around on the road heel & toeing! This is not how you drive a manual day to day. Sure there is satisfaction from it, but you need to adopt a different driving style and seating position like you do on track.in which case DSC will be off and the car won't rev match.

In Europe most of us have manual cars, and grew up driving them. No one drives around using heel and toe day to day (or even ever) on the roads, and most cars are not designed to be driven in this way. All the comments I read from people here are just bewildering! For me the rev matching feature is a good thing.

^I applaud your sound reasoning!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by giger

I can't get my head around all these people that think you should be driving around on the road heel & toeing! This is not how you drive a manual day to day. Sure there is satisfaction from it, but you need to adopt a different driving style and seating position like you do on track.in which case DSC will be off and the car won't rev match.

In Europe most of us have manual cars, and grew up driving them. No one drives around using heel and toe day to day (or even ever) on the roads, and most cars are not designed to be driven in this way. All the comments I read from people here are just bewildering! For me the rev matching feature is a good thing.

Cause it is WAY more cool and WAY more manly to drive HARD into a corner, brake HARD enough that you need to rev match, blip the throttle to rev match and then continue on behind the soccer mom in the minivan that you followed into the corner

The reality is you are correct, a little throttle blip here and there is one thing but if someone is driving at the pace of regular traffic, it is pretty hard to heel-toe. Rev matching is only needed if there is a meaningful variance in engine and transmission speeds. That absolutely occurs on the track when there is large changes in speed due to heavy braking zones... on the street, it is unlikely that if you are braking with traffic and downshifting a gear that your engine is notably different from your transmission speed... UNLESS you are fooling around and driving very aggressively. Which, BTW, is fine too but it isn't how most people are driving on their morning/afternoon commutes

You can absolutely spend your time driving around hard enough to need to heel/toe but it is likely back road driving without other cars around. That or you are "that guy" that everyone thinks is driving around like a tool

[BiscottiGelato]

I heel toe all the time. It's not about driving fast or manliness. It's about a smooth ride, putting the car always in the correct power band (1.5k to 3k on the road, 3.5 - redline on the track?), and minimizing unnecessary clutch wear. That awesome feeling of getting the rev spot on is just a bonus~

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

I heel toe all the time. It's not about driving fast or manliness. It's about a smooth ride, putting the car always in the correct power band (1.5k to 3k on the road, 3.5 - redline on the track?), and minimizing unnecessary clutch wear. That awesome feeling of getting the rev spot on is just a bonus~

I agree. You don't have to be "racing " around to H&T or simply rev match. I never shift down with out a blip. THATS the fun of driving MT for me.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I agree. You don't have to be "racing " around to H&T or simply rev match. I never shift down with out a blip. THATS the fun of driving MT for me.

No doubt. Sorry @gthal but It's absolutely pointless for a DCT fan to say that a manual driver doesn't rev match often because if blipping the throttle wasn't needed for most shifts then there would have never been an auto - rev match feature created for a DCT transmission ( and now unfortunately it's being dragged into manuals ) in the first place

[gthal]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

No doubt. Sorry @gthal but It's absolutely pointless for a DCT fan to say that a manual driver doesn't rev match often because if blipping the throttle wasn't needed for most shifts then there would have never been an auto - rev match feature created for a DCT transmission ( and now unfortunately it's being dragged into manuals ) in the first place

@M3 Adjuster... I might be driving a DCT today but I have spent hundreds of hours on a track in a MT (my M2 is a MT)... heel/toe is second nature. I drove MT cars exclusively for 25+ years and only recently stepped into a DCT

My point, really, is when you are commuting around town, rev matching is not really "needed." It is only needed when the engine/transmission speed are sufficiently different. If you are slowing for a corner in a more casual way, by the time you downshift my experience is the engine and transmission speed are close enough 90% of the time to not need to blip the throttle to align them. Especially because you are likely not shifting aggressively. Sure you CAN do it and it sounds good but the vast majority of MT drivers wouldn't bother nor really need to.

Now, spirited driving is different but commuting to and from work really "requires" zero heel/toe shifting unless you are really pushing the car IMO. Just my opinion

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

I heel toe all the time. It's not about driving fast or manliness. It's about a smooth ride, putting the car always in the correct power band (1.5k to 3k on the road, 3.5 - redline on the track?), and minimizing unnecessary clutch wear. That awesome feeling of getting the rev spot on is just a bonus~

Originally Posted by 335BOY

I agree. You don't have to be "racing " around to H&T or simply rev match. I never shift down with out a blip. THATS the fun of driving MT for me.

That was my point... it's fun, it sounds good, it can be gratifying in many ways but isn't NEEDED unless the car's engine/transmission speeds are sufficiently different to maintain balance. Which is why it is absolutely needed on the track so you don't end up facing the wrong direction accidentally

In any event, it doesn't really matter... I don't think it is "needed" and some people might. Do it if you like, don't if you don't want to. I do, however, agree that the M2 rev match feature should be a selectable feature in all car modes.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by gthal

@M3 Adjuster... I might be driving a DCT today but I have spent hundreds of hours on a track in a MT (my M2 is a MT)... heel/toe is second nature. I drove MT cars exclusively for 25+ years and only recently stepped into a DCT

My point, really, is when you are commuting around town, rev matching is not really "needed." It is only needed when the engine/transmission speed are sufficiently different. If you are slowing for a corner in a more casual way, by the time you downshift my experience is the engine and transmission speed are close enough 90% of the time to not need to blip the throttle to align them. Especially because you are likely not shifting aggressively. Sure you CAN do it and it sounds good but the vast majority of MT drivers wouldn't bother nor really need to.

Now, spirited driving is different but commuting to and from work really "requires" zero heel/toe shifting unless you are really pushing the car IMO. Just my opinion

That was my point... it's fun, it sounds good, it can be gratifying in many ways but isn't NEEDED unless the car's engine/transmission speeds are sufficiently different to maintain balance. Which is why it is absolutely needed on the track so you don't end up facing the wrong direction accidentally

Agree. Rev matching is needed just as much as a DCT is needed on a daily basis. DCT owners use them as AUTOMATIC transmissions the majority of the time.

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

I heel toe all the time. It's not about driving fast or manliness. It's about a smooth ride, putting the car always in the correct power band (1.5k to 3k on the road, 3.5 - redline on the track?), and minimizing unnecessary clutch wear. That awesome feeling of getting the rev spot on is just a bonus~

This. Not to mention that most of us spend far more time on the street than we do on the track; if you reserve your heel/toe practice for track only, it's gonna take a looong time to get it right.

One more thing: The consequences of blowing a heel/toe on the street are usually limited to making your passengers' heads bob. On a track, they can be much higher. So, it's a good thing if you have the technique down before you use it in anger.

CSB: My son practiced heel/toe assiduously when he was learning to drive. When he did his first track school, his instructor commented that it was a joy to not have to worry about a 16 year old spinning the car due to ham-handed downshifting.

[BiscottiGelato]

Originally Posted by gthal

@M3 Adjuster... I might be driving a DCT today but I have spent hundreds of hours on a track in a MT (my M2 is a MT)... heel/toe is second nature. I drove MT cars exclusively for 25+ years and only recently stepped into a DCT

My point, really, is when you are commuting around town, rev matching is not really "needed." It is only needed when the engine/transmission speed are sufficiently different. If you are slowing for a corner in a more casual way, by the time you downshift my experience is the engine and transmission speed are close enough 90% of the time to not need to blip the throttle to align them. Especially because you are likely not shifting aggressively. Sure you CAN do it and it sounds good but the vast majority of MT drivers wouldn't bother nor really need to.

Now, spirited driving is different but commuting to and from work really "requires" zero heel/toe shifting unless you are really pushing the car IMO. Just my opinion

That was my point... it's fun, it sounds good, it can be gratifying in many ways but isn't NEEDED unless the car's engine/transmission speeds are sufficiently different to maintain balance. Which is why it is absolutely needed on the track so you don't end up facing the wrong direction accidentally

In any event, it doesn't really matter... I don't think it is "needed" and some people might. Do it if you like, don't if you don't want to. I do, however, agree that the M2 rev match feature should be a selectable feature in all car modes.

Elaborating further for what you already start to allude to by the end. Rev differential being 'small enough' is really an opinion, not a fact. One can always use the clutch to bridge a 3000 rpm gap if really wanted to and call it 'small enough' also. It's just hell for the clutch and transmission.

Some of us think that there is no rev difference that's small enough for almost all realistic downshift scenarios, and choose to heel & toe regardless to bring the rev difference to a minimum. Just how we roll~ Some don't mind the additional clutch wear and think heel & toe is 'not needed'. But you can't say that it's not needed as a fact for everyone.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

Elaborating further for what you already start to allude to by the end. Rev differential being 'small enough' is really an opinion, not a fact. One can always use the clutch to bridge a 3000 rpm gap if really wanted to and call it 'small enough' also. It's just hell for the clutch and transmission.

Some of us think that there is no rev difference that's small enough for almost all realistic downshift scenarios, and choose to heel & toe regardless to bring the rev difference to a minimum. Just how we roll~ Some don't mind the additional clutch wear and think heel & toe is 'not needed'. But you can't say that it's not needed as a fact for everyone.

I think I did specifically state that my comments were "my opinion" so I don't believe I was creating "facts" at any point... in this debate there are few, if any, "facts" available.

P.S. A 3,000 RPM gap, like in your example, is not what I would consider "small" and it is unlikely, in my experience, that you see those types of differences on normal street driving but maybe that's because I drive like a Grandma in traffic. Having said that, I realize you were simply using it as an example. For, say, a 500 RPM difference (which, I might consider small), I would challenge anyone but the very best heel/toe drivers to rev match a 500 RPM difference on the street accurately... often there will be a slight over rev... maybe 500 RPM in the OTHER direction Rev matching a 2,000 - 3,000 variance is pretty easy as it is a deliberate stab of the throttle. A small variance takes a level of nuance that few would have (although many likely think they have). I also think that when someone rev matches within, say, a 500 RPM range it feels in the car like it was a perfect match when, in fact, it wasn't.

In any event, this is off topic and it's OK that we differ in opinion... especially considering we only differ in opinion by a little

[kovsky]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree. Rev matching is needed just as much as a DCT is needed on a daily basis. DCT owners use them as AUTOMATIC transmissions the majority of the time.

Them fightin words round these parts mister. You can site your source or you can draw.

In all honesty I will never drive my DCT M2 in auto mode. I mean my balls have not completely retreated into my abdomen. I am still a part-time man card owner right? Right guys?

[chris719]

I drove a PDK car for a while and I found myself in automatic mode a lot. Could be because PDK's manual mode is lame and shifts for you at redline and the car I was driving had the horrific buttons instead of paddles. I thought I'd never drive it in auto mode, but it did such a good job at picking gears I really didn't mind and preferred not to use those horrible +/- buttons on the wheel.

I wonder if I would drive DCT in manual mode all the time? Hmm...

[-JLT-]

Originally Posted by chris719

I drove a PDK car for a while and I found myself in automatic mode a lot. Could be because PDK's manual mode is lame and shifts for you at redline and the car I was driving had the horrific buttons instead of paddles. I thought I'd never drive it in auto mode, but it did such a good job at picking gears I really didn't mind and preferred not to use those horrible +/- buttons on the wheel.

I wonder if I would drive DCT in manual mode all the time? Hmm...

couldn't agree with u more. don't know what Porsche was thinking putting those buttons instead of levers :

[gthal]

Originally Posted by kovsky

Them fightin words round these parts mister. You can site your source or you can draw.

In all honesty I will never drive my DCT M2 in auto mode. I mean my balls have not completely retreated into my abdomen. I am still a part-time man card owner right? Right guys?

I'm like you and rarely have my DCT in auto. Maybe when I'm eating a donut and drinking a coffee simultaneously

However, there was a poll on the M3 forum a few months back and, if I recall, it was about 50/50 in terms of people who regularly drive in auto. Blasphemy, I know

[AlpsRider]

I always rev match when I'm driving a manual transmission. You don't need to heel/toe to rev match. Heel/toe means you are pushing it.

[rjn]

One more point of perspective on this DD vs. track car thread...

If you're thinking your new factory delivered M2 is a minimally compromised race track toy, I may have to disagree just a shade. Every road going BMW I've ever owned needed some real mods for serious track work (Even highly acclaimed M cars):

- More camber up front.
- More air to the front calipers (ducts)
- Stiffer springs and higher damping and roll control
- Additional weight reduction, if you're really serious and ready to lose more civility for performance.

My E36 track car weighs significantly less than the Lightweight M3 that BMW offered without AC and radios and aluminum doors, which was a more extreme offering target than the new M2, and even so was far from "raw"

So to get back to OP query, I believe the M2 is going to be a very nice DD, and occasional fun on the track, for a road going car. What with that HK sound system and heated steering wheel, may be downright comfortable on the way there and back as well!

Looking forward to it, everyday

Rob
E36 3
F87 2 in order queue

[rcoccultwar]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Agree. Rev matching is needed just as much as a DCT is needed on a daily basis. DCT owners use them as AUTOMATIC transmissions the majority of the time.

I watched the last 10 minutes of an old Elvis Presley movie this weekend and there were two pretty terrible crashes. I wouldn't be surprised it was from the lack of good smooth shifting. Strange, I think of Elvis every few weeks but no sightings to date.

I have to admit I shift into 1st gear while at speed quite often. Just yesterday switching into a bike lane, I did it and the young lady on the bike seemed to enjoy it. 10 minute later I couldn't run a red-light, so HT'd in anticipation. The mom didn't mind, and her three year old daughter on her bicycle tried to do a circle in middle of the intersection. Sometimes based on other peoples reaction, maybe they think the tranny will go kaput.

I drove a manual M4 with an Akropovic exhaust a while back. The stereo sound quality seemed fine and extra noise didn't bother me at all.

[Bosozoku]

Originally Posted by giger

... When I'm on the road, me and my mates and everyone else I have spoken to (ARDS instructors, race drivers) stays firmly on the brake with the left foot and then rolls on to the throttle. When we are on the track we are on both pedals at once when setting the car up for corners etc. That was my understanding of heel and toe....

Heel-and-toe means using the same foot on brake and gas. The throttle foot.
That way you can use all three pedals at once.

Left-foot-braking means you can't use the clutch pedal along with the brake and gas.

I heel-and-toe every time I drive my S2000. On the street.
Never learned left-foot-braking.

[335BOY]

Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato

Elaborating further for what you already start to allude to by the end. Rev differential being 'small enough' is really an opinion, not a fact. One can always use the clutch to bridge a 3000 rpm gap if really wanted to and call it 'small enough' also. It's just hell for the clutch and transmission.

Some of us think that there is no rev difference that's small enough for almost all realistic downshift scenarios, and choose to heel & toe regardless to bring the rev difference to a minimum. Just how we roll~ Some don't mind the additional clutch wear and think heel & toe is 'not needed'. But you can't say that it's not needed as a fact for everyone.

Exactly!