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      10-09-2014, 02:10 PM   #111
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I want something that is practical enough on the street to not jar my spine around and carry a decent amount of people/luggage. Also has to be "track ready" without having to worry about swapping brakes/fluids/etc...

When I say track ready I mean maybe once a month. The M cars seem to fit perfectly with that. If I wanted a pure track car or something I planned on tracking every other weekend I'd most certainly go for the C7.
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      10-09-2014, 03:15 PM   #112
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Funny all this talk about C7 vs. M2 is going on right now.

Well, it just so happens that I was dead set on the C7 for about a year. Until I realized that M coupes are so gosh darn practical.

I plan on using the back seats. That's one of the reasons why I'm leaning far more to the M2, in addition to it's more reserved appearance. Sure, the back seats may not be the largest, or most comfortable, but when you need them, you can use them.

No one can say that "people don't cross shop the C7 with M's" because that's ridiculous. You're reading a comment by a person who did/is doing exactly that.

I am choosing the M2 because I do not need blistering performance. What I want is a high performance car that is humble, yet striking, and can move my friends around when I need it to.

I cross shopped the C7 with the M2 and I am (most likely) choosing the M2.

I am not the only one to do this, and I'm sure many people cross shopped the C7 and M4 and chose the C7. Or chose the M4. Point is, the cars get cross shopped. When I test drove the C7 the sales rep said people were cross shopping them, and what it came down to is the customer debating whether they want a blistering fast 2 seater that looks like a rocket ship, or if the want a [more professional, less flashy yet classy] (those are my own descriptions) multi purpose car.

Just because the cars are in different performance categories does not mean they aren't cross shopped - some people don't know exactly what they want until it comes the time to actually dish out the cash.
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      10-09-2014, 04:41 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
Funny all this talk about C7 vs. M2 is going on right now.

Well, it just so happens that I was dead set on the C7 for about a year. Until I realized that M coupes are so gosh darn practical.

I plan on using the back seats. That's one of the reasons why I'm leaning far more to the M2, in addition to it's more reserved appearance. Sure, the back seats may not be the largest, or most comfortable, but when you need them, you can use them.

No one can say that "people don't cross shop the C7 with M's" because that's ridiculous. You're reading a comment by a person who did/is doing exactly that.

I am choosing the M2 because I do not need blistering performance. What I want is a high performance car that is humble, yet striking, and can move my friends around when I need it to.

I cross shopped the C7 with the M2 and I am (most likely) choosing the M2.

I am not the only one to do this, and I'm sure many people cross shopped the C7 and M4 and chose the C7. Or chose the M4. Point is, the cars get cross shopped. When I test drove the C7 the sales rep said people were cross shopping them, and what it came down to is the customer debating whether they want a blistering fast 2 seater that looks like a rocket ship, or if the want a [more professional, less flashy yet classy] (those are my own descriptions) multi purpose car.

Just because the cars are in different performance categories does not mean they aren't cross shopped - some people don't know exactly what they want until it comes the time to actually dish out the cash.
While I understand that you looked at the C7, IMO you did not cross shop it. In my mind, cross shopping means that the vehicle has what you need and you're comparing it with similar vehicles. Seems to me like at first you didn't think you needed back seats, hence you looked at the C7. Then when you found that you need back seats, it's not much of an option anymore.

I am willing to bet that you're one of very few (perhaps not none) people that looked at the C7 while comparing it with the M2.
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      10-09-2014, 08:13 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by BMW F22 View Post
I am willing to bet that you're one of very few (perhaps not none) people that looked at the C7 while comparing it with the M2.
I'll be cross shopping the two (along with the GT350 if it lives up to the hype) in a couple of years. If my choice of cars comes with rear seats, great. If not, no biggie. They're low on my priority list.

I'll take all 3 on a spirited test drive, crunch the numbers, and decide which was most enjoyable. And if the Golf 400R does make it to production, that's another car I'll cross shop, a totally practical 4 door hatch with AWD.

My point is, cars can be in totally different categories to be considered.
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      10-09-2014, 08:31 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by BMW F22 View Post
While I understand that you looked at the C7, IMO you did not cross shop it. In my mind, cross shopping means that the vehicle has what you need and you're comparing it with similar vehicles. Seems to me like at first you didn't think you needed back seats, hence you looked at the C7. Then when you found that you need back seats, it's not much of an option anymore.

I am willing to bet that you're one of very few (perhaps not none) people that looked at the C7 while comparing it with the M2.
I'm certainly cross shopping it. Essentially looking at all sport/luxury cars in the 50s.
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      10-09-2014, 08:41 PM   #116
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Up until the time that breakdown or get recalled!!
Oh because BMW or Audi or a Japanese manufacturer have neeeeeever had any recal
BMW did so great with the HPFP that it had to extend its warranty to 10 years 120k miles. Every manufacturer has had a plethora of recalls and issues over the years. Keep your BMW for a couple of years past the warranty expires, let me know how that works out for ya.

There are plenty of great domestic cars out there...pretty lame to dismiss them on those terms. Then I should never buy another BMW right since they have all been such lottery winners for me?
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      10-10-2014, 01:37 AM   #117
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Some of you guys definitely are open to everything. For me, I like to narrow things down a bit. If I want practicality 2 seater cars are out of the question. For some of you thag doesn't matter so you cross shop everything.
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      10-10-2014, 06:40 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW F22 View Post
Some of you guys definitely are open to everything. For me, I like to narrow things down a bit. If I want practicality 2 seater cars are out of the question. For some of you thag doesn't matter so you cross shop everything.
A back seat would be helpful to me, but it's not a deal breaker. When I buy a car in 2015 it will likely be an M235i, M2, M4, C7, Cayman S, Miata, RS3, or CLA45 AMG.

How's that for cutting a wide swath.
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      10-10-2014, 07:02 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles View Post
A back seat would be helpful to me, but it's not a deal breaker. When I buy a car in 2015 it will likely be an M235i, M2, M4, C7, Cayman S, Miata, RS3, or CLA45 AMG.

How's that for cutting a wide swath.
I say those are some amazing choices and whatever you get do it for yourself, not because someone else thinks its what you should do. All great cars that will bring something different to the table but at the end of the day it syould make you smile like this
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      10-10-2014, 08:35 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Jackie Chiles View Post
A back seat would be helpful to me, but it's not a deal breaker. When I buy a car in 2015 it will likely be an M235i, M2, M4, C7, Cayman S, Miata, RS3, or CLA45 AMG.

How's that for cutting a wide swath.
All great cars, BUT for me, MT or bust. So that pretty much always rules out the AMG's and usually the RS.

I'd say they are all possible for me as well (except probably Miata, although I do like design of new one). I'd say:
M2, M3, Cayman S with turbo engine, 917 (or whatever they are supposed to be called).

But most likely it'll be the M2. I love me some V8s but I'd like to try something else to add to the E92
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      10-10-2014, 08:39 AM   #121
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Those of us with kids, extra seats are a must. If my kids were older I'd certainly be cross-shopping C7 and Cayman. M2 will be a 3rd car but I still want to be able to enjoy the car with the whole family. I get as much joy out of hearing my kids giggle uncontrollably during heavy acceleration as I do driving it myself. This is a car suitable for the track but safe, stable and comfortable for occasional family trips to the shore.

Some may say, for my use, as a fair weather commuter, M235 or 435i is the better option. But those cars both fell flat on my expectations of driving engagement and emotion. I don't give a hoot about power numbers or 0-60 times. I want something sexy, unique, pure, and engaging.
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      10-10-2014, 08:46 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by pit1 View Post
Those of us with kids, extra seats are a must. If my kids were older I'd certainly be cross-shopping C7 and Cayman. M2 will be a 3rd car but I still want to be able to enjoy the car with the whole family. I get as much joy out of hearing my kids giggle uncontrollably during heavy acceleration as I do driving it myself. This is a car suitable for the track but safe, stable and comfortable for occasional family trips to the shore.

Some may say, for my use, as a fair weather commuter, M235 or 435i is the better option. But those cars both fell flat on my expectations of driving engagement and emotion. I don't give a hoot about power numbers or 0-60 times. I want something sexy, unique, pure, and engaging.
Personally, I really enjoyed the M235i (the 435i, probably not so much). But I'm the same way, I'm looking for fun and engagement for my next car. Something smaller than my E92 than I can throw around. Essentially, it'll be a replacement to my E36, which is a hell of a lot of fun to drive.
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      10-11-2014, 05:52 PM   #123
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If it less than 60k, I will buy one with EU delivery, drive it til the wheels fall off, then restore it and drive it till the wheels fall off again
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      10-12-2014, 11:14 AM   #124
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If it less than 60k, I will buy one with EU delivery, drive it til the wheels fall off, then restore it and drive it till the wheels fall off again
Starting? Or loaded? Because if base price, then yes, it'll be under $60k all day long. Never bought a brand new car myself either, so I'll be following same path as you haha
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      10-12-2014, 11:15 AM   #125
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Starting? Or loaded? Because if base price, then yes, it'll be under $60k all day long. Never bought a brand new car myself either, so I'll be following same path as you haha
Check this out! Autobild is suggesting a base price of about 50,000 US dollars!

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's clear that not a lot of effort went into this rendering, the front bumper is all sorts of wrong.

Still exciting, though.
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      10-12-2014, 11:54 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
Check this out! Autobild is suggesting a base price of about 50,000 US dollars!

Take it with a grain of salt, as it's clear that not a lot of effort went into this rendering, the front bumper is all sorts of wrong.

Still exciting, though.
Hell yea. I'm telling you, I really do think the base price will be closer to $50k than 53-54k.

I still flip back and forth between AY and LBB haha
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      10-12-2014, 01:57 PM   #127
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Hell yea. I'm telling you, I really do think the base price will be closer to $50k than 53-54k.

I still flip back and forth between AY and LBB haha
And you know what, people keep saying that 14K separation from the M4 price is unrealistic (meaning the price difference will be lower).

But look at M4 vs M5 - that's nearly 30 thousand dollars. And the M4's base price is lower than it's big brother's, the M6, by nearly 50 thousand dollars.

Who's to say that BMW cares about M2 buyers leaving the M4 behind?

lets look at it from an analysts perspective, as long as any margin lost from people ditching the M4 for the M2 is returned by an increase in new consumers (coming from other brands) and current customers upping their willingness to spend 50,000 dollars on a car, then both BMW and the consumers win.

For instance (these are inferred numbers, but you'll get the idea): Lets say 20% of M4 buyers leave for the M2. The price they paid to walk out with their purchase is ~20 thousand less than what they would have paid for the M4. So, let's say, for every 100current M4 buyers, BWM loses (20 x 20K) = 400,000 dollars. However since the M4 costs more to build (I'm assuming), lets say the loss is about 275,000 dollars. (that's 6,250 dollars out of the 20,000 dollar price difference is lost to increased development costs, which is a pretty conservative estimate considering a typical estimate is 50%, I used 31.25%, meaning about 1/3 of the sale is profit).

But then, let's say for every previous BMW consumer in the midrange sports car market, BMW gains 10% additional customers from other brands, so that's .1 new customers for every current BMW sports car consumer. That means for every 100 cars sold, 10 of them are new profit contributors.

In theory, cars cost about half of their price to manufacture, as mentioned earlier. So that's an additional 250,000 dollars, (.5 * 10 new consumers x 50,000 dollar MSRP)

In addition, lets say 20 percent of M235i (or 240i, whatever they call it when the M2 is released) step up to the M2, and that the 235 is lowered in price: for a profit increase of (50-39)*.5= $5,500 per purchase.

So BMW loses 20 consumers from the M4: but those 20 now purchase an M2.
(20 consumers * 50K)*.5 = $500,000

They gain 10 brand new buyers from other companies for a new profit of (10*50K)*.5 = $250,000.

They gain 20 new consumers from the 235: (20*(50K-49K))*.4 (using .4 as portion kept, because lets say a greater portion of the M2's cost went into manufacturing/research) = $88,000.

Finally, using these estimates, BMW's profit change per 100 M4's after introducing the M2, would be:

(20 consumers from M4 * $50,000 * .5) - (20 lost M4 consumers *65K)*(50% manufacturing cost) + (10 new buyers * 50K * (.5) + (20 new 235i converts * (50K-39K))*.3125

= $168,750 greater profit per 100 M4s.

or $168 greater profit per M4 that would have been sold.

That would be equivalent to raising the price of the M4 by about 300$ without impacting demand.

I don't know why I spent so much time on this, I guess I'm just that bored.

Point is, I don't think BMW M is necessarily going to position the M2 so that people feel obliged to upgrade to the M4. The M2 could very well start at $50,000 to start a new mass produced M price segment.
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      10-12-2014, 02:47 PM   #128
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      10-12-2014, 04:22 PM   #129
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Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
And you know what, people keep saying that 14K separation from the M4 price is unrealistic (meaning the price difference will be lower).

But look at M4 vs M5 - that's nearly 30 thousand dollars. And the M4's base price is lower than it's big brother's, the M6, by nearly 50 thousand dollars.

Who's to say that BMW cares about M2 buyers leaving the M4 behind?

lets look at it from an analysts perspective, as long as any margin lost from people ditching the M4 for the M2 is returned by an increase in new consumers (coming from other brands) and current customers upping their willingness to spend 50,000 dollars on a car, then both BMW and the consumers win.

For instance (these are inferred numbers, but you'll get the idea): Lets say 20% of M4 buyers leave for the M2. The price they paid to walk out with their purchase is ~20 thousand less than what they would have paid for the M4. So, let's say, for every 100current M4 buyers, BWM loses (20 x 20K) = 400,000 dollars. However since the M4 costs more to build (I'm assuming), lets say the loss is about 275,000 dollars. (that's 6,250 dollars out of the 20,000 dollar price difference is lost to increased development costs, which is a pretty conservative estimate considering a typical estimate is 50%, I used 31.25%, meaning about 1/3 of the sale is profit).

But then, let's say for every previous BMW consumer in the midrange sports car market, BMW gains 10% additional customers from other brands, so that's .1 new customers for every current BMW sports car consumer. That means for every 100 cars sold, 10 of them are new profit contributors.

In theory, cars cost about half of their price to manufacture, as mentioned earlier. So that's an additional 250,000 dollars, (.5 * 10 new consumers x 50,000 dollar MSRP)

In addition, lets say 20 percent of M235i (or 240i, whatever they call it when the M2 is released) step up to the M2, and that the 235 is lowered in price: for a profit increase of (50-39)*.5= $5,500 per purchase.

So BMW loses 20 consumers from the M4: but those 20 now purchase an M2.
(20 consumers * 50K)*.5 = $500,000

They gain 10 brand new buyers from other companies for a new profit of (10*50K)*.5 = $250,000.

They gain 20 new consumers from the 235: (20*(50K-49K))*.4 (using .4 as portion kept, because lets say a greater portion of the M2's cost went into manufacturing/research) = $88,000.

Finally, using these estimates, BMW's profit change per 100 M4's after introducing the M2, would be:

(20 consumers from M4 * $50,000 * .5) - (20 lost M4 consumers *65K)*(50% manufacturing cost) + (10 new buyers * 50K * (.5) + (20 new 235i converts * (50K-39K))*.3125

= $168,750 greater profit per 100 M4s.

or $168 greater profit per M4 that would have been sold.

That would be equivalent to raising the price of the M4 by about 300$ without impacting demand.

I don't know why I spent so much time on this, I guess I'm just that bored.

Point is, I don't think BMW M is necessarily going to position the M2 so that people feel obliged to upgrade to the M4. The M2 could very well start at $50,000 to start a new mass produced M price segment.
It's great marketing plan if that's what they're going for. I'll be 30 when I can get my hands on an M2 in 2016 and its right in my wheel house price wise. I keep cars pretty long (still on my 08 mazdaspeed 3 I bought new) so by BMW logic I'd be looking at upgrading to the next price up M model in my late 30s and so on.

Honestly, even if there wasn't an M2 I'd probably still go with the M235i as my first BMW experience, but I always have to buy the top model.
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      10-18-2014, 10:20 AM   #130
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I think with a few options not much change out of 50,000 pounds. 1M was always compared with Cayman R. Porsche seem to be pushing Cayman prices North. Will M2 be competition for possible Cayman GT4?? That car won't be cheap. Or will we need to wait for a M2 evo!
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      10-18-2014, 12:23 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Adem1534 View Post
And you know what, people keep saying that 14K separation from the M4 price is unrealistic (meaning the price difference will be lower).
[DELETED Content]

Point is, I don't think BMW M is necessarily going to position the M2 so that people feel obliged to upgrade to the M4. The M2 could very well start at $50,000 to start a new mass produced M price segment.
Using math rather than your gut to make a point? Well said.

It seems that the margin on an M2 should be higher as well vs the M3/4 which has a bespoke engine, CF bits, (etc) and the lower production volumes that go along with it. To keep the M3/4 value distinction, the M2 will be light on a lot of cutting edge tech.

For a consumer to upgrade the 235 to an M2 potential would be ~$13k; BMW's cost to tune the M2 from stock will be much < than $13.
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      10-19-2014, 06:25 PM   #132
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Autobild is suggesting a base price of about 50,000 US dollars!
Price of the M235i Racing = EUR59.5K (± $76K) + taxes.

OK, that's a track only spec'ed fast puppy, but still...
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