[madmax240]

Originally Posted by ssquared

I've been driving to ski resorts through mountain passes covered in snow for many years. I've never had an issue with a RWD car with winter tires other than ground clearance.

I'm not saying that x-drive wouldn't have added grip in those situation, but on public roads with good winter tires and a competent driver, its not necessary.

In some extremely steep/icy conditions then yeah I suppose you can make a case for it. But if your use case is that you're too lazy to switch to proper tires for the conditions than you're endangering yourself and everyone on the road because your stopping power is no better with x-drive than it is with RWD. Your tires are far more important.

And yes, most manufacturers make SUVs with AWD for marketing because fairies like you think AWD is necessary when its foggy or drizzly out. 95% of SUVs aren't going off the road. They're for soccer moms who think they're too trendy to drive a minivan. Nobody in the US is buying them for utility. Maybe elsewhere they are, but in the US, no way, people just think they look cool.

Agree. The saddest thing is SUVs don't look cool at all, they just look fat.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Sorry to disagree with you, The X1 xDrive with Continental DWS tires is better than my M3 with winter tires.
as a side note, I am aware of the 50;50 distribution, yet, in the snow pulling is better than pushing.
But, I also strongly believe that the M2 will handle snow better than M3 and never had the chance to drive one in the winter with winter tires.
Still, I will keep an X1 kind of vehicle with AWD for winter hands down.

Even more important than that is the DRIVER. It's amazing how there are so many clueless people driving in cities that get snow; a lot of them seem to feel that they are invincible, with their big honking 4WD SUVs.

A bit more than 2 years ago I bought a pristine, 2 year old, 135is Convertible from the Carmax located just south of Salt Lake City. The car had all-season RFT tires on it, and all of 6,000 miles on it. I flew one-way to SLC to pick this car up, which I had paid to have shipped from the S.E. There was no Carmax in Idaho at the time. I believe it was the 30th of November. I stayed overnight near the airport, and the saleslady from Carmax was supposed to pick me up first thing. Instead, there was a surprise snowstorm of about 4", and she told me to take a cab, which Carmax would pay for.

On the ~20 mile drive on the freeway, there was approximately 1 car per 500 feet in the ditch on either side of the freeway lanes. The cab driver told me that everytime it snows in SLC, it's just like that, SUVs in the ditch, everywhere. Some of the driving I saw on the way to the Carmax illustrated why there were so many cars that had slid off the road. I have never seen so many incompetent winter drivers in my life, people passing 4-abreast snowplows on the shoulder, going way too fast, accelerating quickly, etc. etc. etc.

After I paid for the car, I carefully drove out of the area, headed to Boise, normally a ~4 hour drive. It snowed some more in Northern Utah, but I had no difficulty driving this RWD car with awful all-season RFT tires, which I had replaced at the first opportunity, after I got to Idaho. Normally, I don't drive this car in the winter at all, however since I traded in my 135i coupe towards my soon to arrive M2, I did put the snow tires from that car on the convertible for the rest of this winter.

My point is that, sure, there are situations that one encounters infrequently, where a RWD car with snow tires will have a tough time due to deep snow, black ice, etc. Nonetheless, I'll take a good driver in a RWD car with all-season tires, over a bad driver in a 4WD SUV, any day of the week.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Zombie_Head

At the time, it seemed like a good idea, till you have ugly cables running across the dash, phone vibrating and shaking on the mount, constantly losing GPS signals here and there.

Id stick with a factory NAV and keep everything else manual and simple.

Must be an iPhone user.

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by ssquared

I've been driving to ski resorts through mountain passes covered in snow for many years. I've never had an issue with a RWD car with winter tires other than ground clearance.

I'm not saying that x-drive wouldn't have added grip in those situation, but on public roads with good winter tires and a competent driver, its not necessary.

In some extremely steep/icy conditions then yeah I suppose you can make a case for it. But if your use case is that you're too lazy to switch to proper tires for the conditions than you're endangering yourself and everyone on the road because your stopping power is no better with x-drive than it is with RWD. Your tires are far more important.

And yes, most manufacturers make SUVs with AWD for marketing because fairies like you think AWD is necessary when its foggy or drizzly out. 95% of SUVs aren't going off the road. They're for soccer moms who think they're too trendy to drive a minivan. Nobody in the US is buying them for utility. Maybe elsewhere they are, but in the US, no way, people just think they look cool.

First, my X1 goes out of public roads and off road. This is Canada, very wild and many fun opportunities.

Secondly, yes, tires are important, yet a RWD vehicle has 2 wheels under engine control, while AWD has 4 wheels under engine control. using the engine brake is very different from a RWD to an AWD because AWD will control four wheels not only two down the slope or deceleration (when x-Drive active). Many times using the engine brake is the thing to do and not rely on brakes but on Hill Descent Control where AWD does a tremendous job, more superior to a RWD or FWD for that matter.
Think manual downshift to control de vehicle.

Thirdly, I repeat myself, where I am going to ski and climbing a RWD with winter tires doesn't come close to an AWD with Conti DWS all season only.
Plus again, in the snow, pulling is better than pushing.

My M3 never managed and I know how to drive, don't want to go in details.

There is this need of self convincing attitude that it works. I get it. Yes, it works, quite very nice on public cleaned roads, going to an ski resort, but does not compare with AWD on not cleared snow roads. I have all transmission systems in my garage and where tried in different environments. I just went in the weekend to ski and several RWD with winter tires were stuck. AWD rules in snow.

[No Boost]

Yet another thread being overtaken by the AWD vs RWD with snow tires debate

[Teutonic]

Originally Posted by champignon

Even more important than that is the DRIVER. It's amazing how there are so many clueless people driving in cities that get snow; a lot of them seem to feel that they are invincible, with their big honking 4WD SUVs.

A bit more than 2 years ago I bought a pristine, 2 year old, 135is Convertible from the Carmax located just south of Salt Lake City. The car had all-season RFT tires on it, and all of 6,000 miles on it. I flew one-way to SLC to pick this car up, which I had paid to have shipped from the S.E. There was no Carmax in Idaho at the time. I believe it was the 30th of November. I stayed overnight near the airport, and the saleslady from Carmax was supposed to pick me up first thing. Instead, there was a surprise snowstorm of about 4", and she told me to take a cab, which Carmax would pay for.

On the ~20 mile drive on the freeway, there was approximately 1 car per 500 feet in the ditch on either side of the freeway lanes. The cab driver told me that everytime it snows in SLC, it's just like that, SUVs in the ditch, everywhere. Some of the driving I saw on the way to the Carmax illustrated why there were so many cars that had slid off the road. I have never seen so many incompetent winter drivers in my life, people passing 4-abreast snowplows on the shoulder, going way too fast, accelerating quickly, etc. etc. etc.

After I paid for the car, I carefully drove out of the area, headed to Boise, normally a ~4 hour drive. It snowed some more in Northern Utah, but I had no difficulty driving this RWD car with awful all-season RFT tires, which I had replaced at the first opportunity, after I got to Idaho. Normally, I don't drive this car in the winter at all, however since I traded in my 135i coupe towards my soon to arrive M2, I did put the snow tires from that car on the convertible for the rest of this winter.

My point is that, sure, there are situations that one encounters infrequently, where a RWD car with snow tires will have a tough time due to deep snow, black ice, etc. Nonetheless, I'll take a good driver in a RWD car with all-season tires, over a bad driver in a 4WD SUV, any day of the week.

The presumptions I found on this forum are mind blowing.
Like you presume I don't know how to drive, or presume that Canada is USA.

I know very well how to drive, I am coming from Europe, mountain area with racing experience on my backpack.
Secondly, Canada is so large and inhabited in some areas that you probably have no idea what are you talking about. Really. Even outside the city, going on the acreage area, you might not make it.
In the snow, you need to know how to keep the momentum and feel the car. You probably know that, so is good.
A 2 series is lighter- (cabrio lighter than coupe too!), (narrower wheels too), has a very small wheelbase, A 50/50 weight distribution (compensating for engine weight on front axle); all that is beneficiary; add winter tires and you are ok. Still, an AWD (light) will beat it. Yes it works, like you on the city roads, but on a wild adventure you are stuck. literally.

[voyagergab]

Yet when i drive to Lake Louse for some skiing in poor conditions ie ice or snow for some reason it's almost exclusively large awd SUVs and 4x4 pickup trucks that are in the ditch or even flipped.
And of course an occasional idiot car on all season tires.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by brianeck

The thing in both cars (and all across the audi BMW, MB lineup really) right now is a completely wasted and tacky looking visual setup. I preferred my e90 3 series "hump screen" to the repurposed iPod - honestly everything you can do in the car can be done through the controls and the actual gauge display at this point. Why glue on a crappy old iPad?

Personally I'd much rather have my jb4 magnet phone mount it's way less invasive and at least there is a reason it looks "aftermarket" and stuck on.

There is no design element to the screens at all. MB is the worst culprit all around. But seriously you just dont need those middle screens at all if you have digital gauge cluster, and touch screen controls for heating/cooling don't even get me started in how frustrating and distracting that is while you're trying to look at the friggin road.

There is no right or wrong, as you just said right there, you personally like having the jb4 mounted, i like clean factory installed iDrive. Does it mean either of us is correct or incorrect? of course not, it is a matter of taste/opinion but hey, whatever suits us right?

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by stefan

Must be an iPhone user.

Right, and that massive Galaxy phone is just going to be a heck of a lot easier? Oh wait, it is bigger and heavier and even harder to stabilize on a highway XD

Jokes aside, no matter what phone i used, i hate sticking them on the windshield.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by Zombie_Head

Right, and that massive Galaxy phone is just going to be a heck of a lot easier? Oh wait, it is bigger and heavier and even harder to stabilize on a highway XD

Jokes aside, no matter what phone i used, i hate sticking them on the windshield.

I meant the lost GPS and other stuff you're complaining about but no I hear ya. Personally though I use voice commands and my Oneplus 5.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by Tracus

Sorry to disagree with you, The X1 xDrive with Continental DWS tires is better than my M3 with winter tires.
as a side note, I am aware of the 50;50 distribution, yet, in the snow pulling is better than pushing.
But, I also strongly believe that the M2 will handle snow better than M3 and never had the chance to drive one in the winter with winter tires.
Still, I will keep an X1 kind of vehicle with AWD for winter hands down.

So my 650GC Xi had the DWS tires - but with 20" wheels. Three things
1. I agree, acceleration was a breeze
2. I disagree that it "drove" better in the snow - mostly because every now and then the 650 would suddenly start tracking towards the curb. It might have been the fact that it had wide 20" wheels, but I had some serious white knuckled moments in that car in the snow. Not so with the M2 or M3 with winter sport tires.
3. I do feel the M2 was better in the snow than the M3 - same exact tires and wheels, but more miles on the tires with the M3. So it could be the tires losing some tread or it could be that the M2 was just better in the snow than the M3 (I think it is both!)

[bobert]

Phone mounts, RWD vs AWD in snow...

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Tracus

The presumptions I found on this forum are mind blowing.
Like you presume I don't know how to drive, or presume that Canada is USA.

Actually, I find your response to be a tad egocentric. I don't know you and have no idea how you drive; how could I?

As to Canada, I have driven many thousands of miles in your fine country, I have gone on the Trans-Canada from the far East Coast to the wilds of Vancouver Island, Prince Rupert, etc. etc. etc., plus have made a number of trips through the boonies in Western Canada, not to mention having driven through the Yukon, to Dawson City, Whitehorse, etc. Have you? How about Chicken, Alaska, have you been there? I have, and I have no desire to ever go back :-)

In the right sort of circumstances an AWD or 4WD vehicle will be superior to a RWD vehicle. Exactly how often does the average driver encounter those sorts of circumstances? Occasionally, that's the honest answer. Most of the rest of the time, it doesn't matter.

My own philosophy is that when the driving is as bad as you would have us believe happens every other day in Canada, I stay off the roads if at all possible and in 99% of cases I am able to do so. Because I don't care how good of a driver you are with your Sherman Tank, the rest of the drivers are pretty bad and the odds are high that one of them is going to run into you even if you are minding your own business and driving like the pro (that you are).

[JunkStory]

yet another awd vs rwd debate that goes nowhere. Are you all new to the internet or something

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by stefan

I meant the lost GPS and other stuff you're complaining about but no I hear ya. Personally though I use voice commands and my Oneplus 5.

I used both the Android (Samsung Galaxy) and Apple iPhone, when it comes to loss of GPS single, they are identical when we used them as Navi.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by JunkStory

yet another awd vs rwd debate that goes nowhere. Are you all new to the internet or something

I am personally new to this; could you please give me some pointers?

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by champignon

I am personally new to this; could you please give me some pointers?

That was funny....

Back on topic, I can't wait to see the RS3 @ the Chicago auto show this weekend. Might be my next car!

[aerobat]

German magazine SportAuto (The best Magazine for sport car tests in my opinion) tested M2, RS3, AMG45, CRV etc.
Please note that the M2 outperforms RS3 in every way but 0-100 and 0-200.
Esp note "Elastizitet" where M2 out accelerates RS3.

This is a summary quote:
"Wie sich der M2 bewegt, wie er sich verbeißt in Fahrkommandos, wie er die Richtung wechselt, am Gas hängt und dir trotz einer gewissen Eigenwilligkeit das Gefühl totaler Kontrolle vermittelt, ist selbst in diesem Kosmos eine andere Umlaufbahn. Oder anders ausgedrückt: RS 3, A 45 und Focus RS mögen über aus sportliche Kompakte sein, der M2 jedoch ist ein Sportwagen im Kompaktformat."

Losely translated:
"How the M2 moves, how it bites away in driving commands, how it changes direction, how it hangs on the gas and gives you the feeling of total control despite a certain individuality is another orbit in this cosmos. Or in other words: RS 3, A 45 and Focus RS may be about sporty compacts, but the M2 is a compact sports car."

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by aerobat

German magazine SportAuto (The best Magazine for sport car tests in my opinion) tested M2, RS3, AMG45, CRV etc.
Please note that the M2 outperforms RS3 in every way but 0-100 and 0-200.
Esp note "Elastizitet" where M2 out accelerates RS3.

This is a summary quote:
"Wie sich der M2 bewegt, wie er sich verbeißt in Fahrkommandos, wie er die Richtung wechselt, am Gas hängt und dir trotz einer gewissen Eigenwilligkeit das Gefühl totaler Kontrolle vermittelt, ist selbst in diesem Kosmos eine andere Umlaufbahn. Oder anders ausgedrückt: RS 3, A 45 und Focus RS mögen über aus sportliche Kompakte sein, der M2 jedoch ist ein Sportwagen im Kompaktformat."

Losely translated:
"How the M2 moves, how it bites away in driving commands, how it changes direction, how it hangs on the gas and gives you the feeling of total control despite a certain individuality is another orbit in this cosmos. Or in other words: RS 3, A 45 and Focus RS may be about sporty compacts, but the M2 is a compact sports car."
Attachment 1769587

911s and supercars aside....

AWD = sporty car
RWD = sports car

I've owned an AWD Scooby legacy, driven many STI and Evo... those are fun with the boost dialed up.. but when it come to having fun in the corners ... or.. just rounding a corner and getting the tail out for fun.. RWD all day long and twice on Saturday AND Sunday for me.

I specifically avoided the E82 xdrive35 X1 for an Sdrive28 as well. It does phenomenally in the snow with proper all seasons (Michelin AS3+) on 19s.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by aerobat

German magazine SportAuto (The best Magazine for sport car tests in my opinion) tested M2, RS3, AMG45, CRV etc.
Please note that the M2 outperforms RS3 in every way but 0-100 and 0-200.
Esp note "Elastizitet" where M2 out accelerates RS3.

This is a summary quote:
"Wie sich der M2 bewegt, wie er sich verbeißt in Fahrkommandos, wie er die Richtung wechselt, am Gas hängt und dir trotz einer gewissen Eigenwilligkeit das Gefühl totaler Kontrolle vermittelt, ist selbst in diesem Kosmos eine andere Umlaufbahn. Oder anders ausgedrückt: RS 3, A 45 und Focus RS mögen über aus sportliche Kompakte sein, der M2 jedoch ist ein Sportwagen im Kompaktformat."

Losely translated:
"How the M2 moves, how it bites away in driving commands, how it changes direction, how it hangs on the gas and gives you the feeling of total control despite a certain individuality is another orbit in this cosmos. Or in other words: RS 3, A 45 and Focus RS may be about sporty compacts, but the M2 is a compact sports car."
Attachment 1769587

The S3 is faster in the slalom than the RS3. That's some funny shit.

[RedCarrot]

Originally Posted by aerobat

German magazine SportAuto

Attachment 1769587

Thanks for posting this. I like its 80-160 kph stats by gear as that acceleration measurement is much more applicable and meaningful to actual operation of the car.

[aerobat]

Originally Posted by RedCarrot

Thanks for posting this. I like its 80-160 kph stats by gear as that acceleration measurement is much more applicable and meaningful to actual operation of the car.

Thanks! everybody is so fixed with 0-100km/h, doesn´t say much of a car.