[STK]

Originally Posted by reppucci

I agree and I also doubt the 20% number.....2016 M2 MT was at 40%... Give me some time and I will check 2-300 VINS of recent 2017 US cars and project from there.

I think the 20% number is of world-wide sales. It's higher in the US. Most Europeans are over MT. They're F1 people, too. As I suggested earlier, I think MT sales in the US skew toward an older demographic. Just reading these posts is consistent with that conclusion. Lots of folks that started driving in the 60s and 70s. There is still a romance with the MT in the US among a certain crowd that just isn't there in Europe and other locations.

[Haslamhazza]

Originally Posted by STK

I think the 20% number is of world-wide sales. It's higher in the US. Most Europeans are over MT. They're F1 people, too. As I suggested earlier, I think MT sales in the US skew toward an older demographic. Just reading these posts is consistent with that conclusion. Lots of folks that started driving in the 60s and 70s. There is still a romance with the MT in the US among a certain crowd that just isn't there in Europe and other locations.

There is a demand for MT in the U.K. Just the same. It's the enthusiasts that want the MT. if u go the the Nurburgring and look in the car parks u will find as many MT as u do auto/ Duel/clutch.

[Destroya]

Originally Posted by STK

I think the 20% number is of world-wide sales. It's higher in the US. Most Europeans are over MT. They're F1 people, too. As I suggested earlier, I think MT sales in the US skew toward an older demographic. Just reading these posts is consistent with that conclusion. Lots of folks that started driving in the 60s and 70s. There is still a romance with the MT in the US among a certain crowd that just isn't there in Europe and other locations.

Yeah, I'm one of those. And you are right, it is a romance, with a lot of nostalgia.

[STK]

Originally Posted by Haslamhazza

There is a demand for MT in the U.K. Just the same. It's the enthusiasts that want the MT. if u go the the Nurburgring and look in the car parks u will find as many MT as u do auto/ Duel/clutch.

Are your defining enthusiast as someone that tracks their car? I think everyone that got an M2 was on allocation and had to wait. A lot of those people aren't "enthusiasts?" These a whole section on the board of people throwing thousands of dollars at the car on new wheels, lowering springs, and carbon fiber with no intention of ever tracking the car. Aren't they enthusiasts? There's an army of folks doing cars and coffee that never track their cars. Aren't they enthusiasts? There's folks on the board with 5 high performance cars including an M2 who've never driven a track. Aren't they enthusiasts?

If you define an enthusiast as someone more likely to have a MT, then enthusiasts will have more MTs. I just think that reasoning is kind of circular. And you're leaving out a lot of folks with very legitimate claims of being an enthusiast, just not your kind of enthusiast.

[Karmic Man]

Even 20% worldwide is still a strong number...it's not 2%.

In a worst case scenario if they remove the 6MT option they will lose 20% of potential sales and no one will be brave and dumb enough to make that call.

In fact with that 20% figure there is a strong case for a niche model which is 6MT only but with higher performance and more CF bling so they can charge a premium on top.

[STK]

Originally Posted by Haslamhazza

There is a demand for MT in the U.K. Just the same. It's the enthusiasts that want the MT. if u go the the Nurburgring and look in the car parks u will find as many MT as u do auto/ Duel/clutch.

btw-my personal definition of enthusiast is close to yours. I sometimes wonder why someone would not track a car that can't be driven near its capabilities on the street nor can you learn to drive it near its capabilities on the street. You gotta track it just to learn how to drive it. But then I look at the shit-eating grin of someone who just slammed the car with lowering springs, wrapped the roof in black and spent 4 grand on wheels and 3 grand on carbon fiber. Hard not to say they're enthusiast. Let's not be haters.

[Spinnetti]

Originally Posted by BurpZilla

https://www.motor1.com/news/143283/bmw-m-no-manuals/


Something that we have all discussed and have known for a while. Its seriously disappointing that the manual is going to die out. If BMW does not offer a manual I will move on to a different company, i'll chase the manual around till the day I die. (Thank you Porsche for listening to the people). The R8 was the car of my dreams until the 2nd gen came out...

Would you stop buying cars just because of the transmission?

I'm with you... In fact, I came to try to get an M2 because of the manual (not offered in the RS3).. Never did get an allocation after a long wait, so I pick up my (used) R8 (manual of course) on Saturday Sporting car companies should offer the manual as an extra cost option to justify its production. People who enjoy the drive enjoy manuals, so worth paying more for it in a sports car.

[IS3andME]

Originally Posted by STK

I think the 20% number is of world-wide sales. It's higher in the US. Most Europeans are over MT. They're F1 people, too. As I suggested earlier, I think MT sales in the US skew toward an older demographic. Just reading these posts is consistent with that conclusion. Lots of folks that started driving in the 60s and 70s. There is still a romance with the MT in the US among a certain crowd that just isn't there in Europe and other locations.

Well a lot of younger people who are enthusiasts want the manual. Period. People in the 20s-40s. And one of the reasons is because many of the great driver's cars of the 80s-90s to early 2000s, were manuals. You also have the video game influence as well. Look at all the younger people who are profiled on Petrolicious.
When it comes to BMWs, DCT lovers and or users fall in several categories. One category is the one where one doesn't want to deal with a manual in stop and go traffic, like in LA or DC. Or likes the ease of use---flappy paddle when they want it, auto when they need it. Another category is the one who wants the faster shift times for the track, and then the other is the poser BMW fanboi "you have to get the DCT".

[BurpZilla]

Originally Posted by Spinnetti

I'm with you... In fact, I came to try to get an M2 because of the manual (not offered in the RS3).. Never did get an allocation after a long wait, so I pick up my (used) R8 (manual of course) on Saturday Sporting car companies should offer the manual as an extra cost option to justify its production. People who enjoy the drive enjoy manuals, so worth paying more for it in a sports car.

Originally Posted by Spinnetti

I'm with you... In fact, I came to try to get an M2 because of the manual (not offered in the RS3).. Never did get an allocation after a long wait, so I pick up my (used) R8 (manual of course) on Saturday Sporting car companies should offer the manual as an extra cost option to justify its production. People who enjoy the drive enjoy manuals, so worth paying more for it in a sports car.

I had an Audi rs4 07 for about 7-8 years. Would have stayed with audi but all their manuals died out! Their RS models are unreal and I was then in NY so it was epic alllllll year. Beast in the snow with snow tires.

Congrats on the R8!!!!! How do you like it? That is my dream car! I hope it doesn't go too out of date when I'm ready for it.

[Artemis]

Posted in another thread, but also applicable here:

• MT take-rate of the 2014 Porsche Cayman GTS: only 5%
• MT take rate of the 2015 Porsche Cayman GT4 (featuring the Cayman GTS MT gearbox): 100% (sold out in no time - no PDK option made available)
  

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the CAR+ interview with BMW M about the M2 and M4 GTS (December 2015) the interviewer mentioned that manuals were expected to represent ± 40% of the M2 sales (source: here):

You'll be giving engine orders through either a six-speed manual, or, unlike the 1M, an optional dual-clutch gearbox; the latter likely to take 60% of sales.

In an interview with Digital Trends (January 2017) BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel disclosed that manuals represent ± 20% of the M2 sales, which he considers to be "a lot" (source: here):

Q: Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions ? How long term do you think that will remain an option ?
A: Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption. So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes. We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Having followed this M2 section right from the early stage, I got the impression that the vast majority of M2 cars spec'ed by BMW dealers are M-DCT (to be distinguished from M2 cars spec'ed by customers). Prior to the official delivery date (April 16, 2016), many dealers ordered so-called "HEA cars" ("Handler-Erst-Ausstattung" = first edition for dealers = dealer demo cars), which fairly quickly ended up in customers' hands, who took what was available. IIRC a lot of forum members who got a HEA M2 and who had not been involved in the ordering process, drive an M-DCT.

IMHO, though it may sound like a paradox, it's more accurate to say that M-DCT 'supply' is strong, rather than that 6MT 'demand' is poor. Most dealers spec'ing M-DCT, is a catalyst for the self-fulfilling prophecy that 'demand for manuals has decreased'. Would be interesting to know the take-rate for manuals of customer-spec'ed M2 cars. I believe it to be higher than the one of dealer-spec'ed M2 cars, leveling the global figure of all sales to ± 20%. But I am biased, as, back in October 2015, I spec'ed the manual gearbox for my M2 (even if BMW or my dealer would have offered the M-DCT option for free).

The fact that the BMW 1M (2011), Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015) and Porsche 911R (2016) were manual-only, didn't hurt sales of any of those cars. Also that characteristic got those cars extra accolades amongst car enthusiasts (including virtually all car journalists). And Porsche is smart by offering the manual gearbox of its 911R for its brandnew GT3 as a 'free of charge option': indeed, for its GT3 Porsche charges PDK-money for the manual gearbox (same price). I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line.

Personally I wouldn't mind BMW offering M2 variants M-DCT stock, with the manual gearbox as 'free of charge option' (thus charging M-DCT-money for the manual gearbox), if that would preserve the possibility of getting a manual gearbox.

For sure, Audi, Mercedes and other BMW competitors would welcome the news that M2 variants will be M-DCT only. But IMHO BMW M is smart enough not to let that happen. The manual gearbox: not only for all the automotive fun and aficionados accolades, but also as a unique selling point when compared to several BMW competitors.

In the referenced CAR+ interview BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel mentioned also the following interesting information (source: here):

Q: What is your favourite M car from the past ?
A: The 1-series M. That car definitely needs ESC !
Q: How involved do you get in the development process ?
A: I drive the cars early. Usually the engineers have picked up on the same things, but it's good to have input.

I'm way too insignificant to give Mr. Van Meel some piece of advice. But if I may for a moment: the proof of the pudding is in the eating; go drive an M2 variant prototype with a manual gearbox, with the target public in mind, Sir !

TL;DR ? Summary: there are good reasons for BMW to release an M2 variant with manual gearbox (too).

[STK]

Originally Posted by IS3andME

Well a lot of younger people who are enthusiasts want the manual. Period. People in the 20s-40s. And one of the reasons is because many of the great driver's cars of the 80s-90s to early 2000s, were manuals. You also have the video game influence as well. Look at all the younger people who are profiled on Petrolicious.
When it comes to BMWs, DCT lovers fall in several categories. One category is the one where one doesn't want to deal with a manual in stop and go traffic, like in LA or DC. Another category is the one who wants the faster shift times for the track, and then the other is the poser BMW fanboi "you have to get the DCT".

All those "fanboi" guys you dis could look at you as some steampunk-type a-hole fetishizing outdated technology. Now I don't. I'm not a hater. Live and let live...

But my guess is MT skews old. To some old guys and gals DCT feels wrong after rowing all those years. These same folks are still blipping (ops) due to muscle memory, too. There are A LOT of good memories and personal satisfaction associated with learning and mastering how to heal-toe, threshold brake, and the like. It's cool that some younger folks are learning these skills. Have at it. It's big fun.

[gmzanatta]

Originally Posted by STK

All those "fanboi" guys you dis could look at you as some steampunk-type a-hole fetishizing outdated technology. Now I don't. I'm not a hater. Live and let live...

But my guess is MT skews old. To some old guys and gals DCT feels wrong after rowing all those years. These same folks are still blipping (ops) due to muscle memory, too. There are A LOT of good memories and personal satisfaction associated with learning and mastering how to heal-toe, threshold brake, and the like. It's cool that some younger folks are learning these skills. Have at it. It's big fun.

I think that's a skewed view as well. Many younger enthusiasts (myself included) are going in droves to MT's because we're simply fed up with auto slushboxes. When you grow up driving an auto, get trained on an auto and then drive your first serious MT car, it's basically impossible to go back to the "monotony" of an auto box.

I bet if you were to poll the serious younger enthusiast crowd, you'd be surprised how far towards MT it would skew.

[STK]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

I think that's a skewed view as well. Many younger enthusiasts (myself included) are going in droves to MT's because we're simply fed up with auto slushboxes. When you grow up driving an auto, get trained on an auto and then drive your first serious MT car, it's basically impossible to go back to the "monotony" of an auto box.

I bet if you were to poll the serious younger enthusiast crowd, you'd be surprised how far towards MT it would skew.

I think that's great that you and a lot of younger enthusiasts are MT guys. As to how many, it would be interesting to actually know the age distribution as well as the country distribution of M2 purchasers. (Even better broken down by trans.) We know that non-US purchases are under 20% MT and that US are above. Just from this site you can tell a lot of the MTers are older. But this probably isn't a representative sample. Anyone with the info please chime in.

[Destroya]

Originally Posted by STK

I think that's great that you and a lot of younger enthusiasts are MT guys. As to how many, it would be interesting to actually know the age distribution as well as the country distribution of M2 purchasers. (Even better broken down by trans.) We know that non-US purchases are under 20% MT and that US are above. Just from this site you can tell a lot of the MTers are older. But this probably isn't a representative sample. Anyone with the info please chime in.

This calls for someone with the know how on this site to set up a poll to determine the age breakdown for MT take. I would be willing to bet it skews to an older demographic.

[gmzanatta]

Originally Posted by Destroya

This calls for someone with the know how on this site to set up a poll to determine the age breakdown for MT take. I would be willing to bet it skews to an older demographic.

I'm thinking about the poll below, let's get some input on how to break it down and then I will set one up. Thinking of (I think max 8 options to keep it simple):

- 6MT - < 25
- 6MT - 25 - 40
- 6MT - 40 - 55
- 6MT - 55+

- DCT - < 25
- DCT - 25 - 40
- DCT - 40 - 55
- DCT - 55+

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

I'm thinking about the poll below, let's get some input on how to break it down and then I will set one up. Thinking of (I think max 8 options to keep it simple):

- 6MT - < 25
- 6MT - 25 - 40
- 6MT - 40 - 55
- 6MT - 55+

- DCT - < 25
- DCT - 25 - 40
- DCT - 40 - 55
- DCT - 55+

Yes. This should work but it should be the following intervals:
- 6MT - < 30
- 6MT - 30 - 45
- 6MT - 45 - 60
- 6MT - 60+

- DCT - < 30
- DCT - 30 - 45
- DCT - 45 - 60
- DCT - 60+

60 is closer to retirement than 55 and so wanted to push out the intervals accordingly. Also having an initial group up to 30 years would give approximately 15 years for the initial interval from the age of 16 when you're officially allowed to drive.

Also the poll should include the transmission that an individual would prefer to have on his M2 rather than the one that he has because some of them might have been forced to buy a DCT/Manual because of what was available.

[Spinnetti]

Originally Posted by BurpZilla

Congrats on the R8!!!!! How do you like it? That is my dream car! I hope it doesn't go too out of date when I'm ready for it.

I pick it up this Saturday, so will let you know. I got an 08, and with the launch of the virtual cockpit, everything feels old - M2 included. I had a highly modified A4 for the last 14 years... Big Garrett ceramic ball bearing turbo and 25lb of boost. Was a great car. Only sold it because I moved and it wouldn't pass an emission test which they do here. I knew I wanted an M2 and had to wait for it, so got a "temp" car - Fahrenheit Jetta (totalled by distracted driver) then a Beetle turbo I modified which I'll be driving until next week when I get the R8... All manual of course. Taught my new driver daughter to drive the beetle this past weekend, but with a race clutch, stiff pressure plate, suspension and all the mods, it was a bit of a handful for her compared to her moms Touareg lol. She still did pretty good but not ready to take on a manual. I get that automatics are better now, just no fun and I'm all about the fun not the last .001 second of performance... That said, one of my race cars is an automatic. Nice to be able to left foot brake as I can go deeper into the corners and workload is less when things get hairy. I don't even paddle shift it - I just leave it in auto lol.

[gmzanatta]

Originally Posted by Gatte

Yes. This should work but it should be the following intervals:
- 6MT - < 30
- 6MT - 30 - 45
- 6MT - 45 - 60
- 6MT - 60+

- DCT - < 30
- DCT - 30 - 45
- DCT - 45 - 60
- DCT - 60+

60 is closer to retirement than 55 and so wanted to push out the intervals accordingly. Also having an initial group up to 30 years would give approximately 15 years for the initial interval from the age of 16 when you're officially allowed to drive.

Also the poll should include the transmission that an individual would prefer to have on his M2 rather than the one that he has because some of them might have been forced to buy a DCT/Manual because of what was available.

I'm good with those. I'll set up a poll later tonight or tomorrow morning, give folks some time to chime in.

[STK]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

I'm good with those. I'll set up a poll later tonight or tomorrow morning, give folks some time to chime in.

You might consider adding a country or continent marker if that is possible.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=19882965
Also, take a look at this thread. Wow. 36% under 31, 60% under 38, and only 15% over 51. The age skews much younger than I thought. Once again, wondering if this is representative. You might want to think about modifying your age brackets after looking at this.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=973344
This thread shows 2/3 of M3/4 owners under 40 and nearly 1/3 under 30. I don't think I'm buying either survey as representative.

And this from Bloomberg: "The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 54 for Mercedes and 49 for BMW."

[six-n-twins53]

If the M2 wasn't offered with a manual transmission, I would not have bought one. If manual transmissions truly become dinosaurs, I will become a customer of the last company to produce them. It is truly one of the defining features of a car built for driving pleasure. I know many of you are happy with your DCTs, autos, etc. But for me, I could not imagine buying a performance car that didn't have a clutch pedal.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Destroya

This calls for someone with the know how on this site to set up a poll to determine the age breakdown for MT take. I would be willing to bet it skews to an older demographic.

Without age breakdown: ± 3/5 manual and ± 2/5 M-DCT over here:
http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho....php?t=1177987

Stats after 467 votes:

• 284 out of 467 = 60.81%: manual transmission;
• 183 out of 467 = 39.19%: M-DCT Drivelogic.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by STK

You might consider adding a country or continent marker if that is possible.

http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...php?p=19882965
Also, take a look at this thread. Wow. 36% under 31, 60% under 38, and only 15% over 51. The age skews much younger than I thought. Once again, wondering if this is representative. You might want to think about modifying your age brackets after looking at this.

http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=973344
This thread shows 2/3 of M3/4 owners under 40 and nearly 1/3 under 30. I don't think I'm buying either survey as representative.

And this from Bloomberg: "The average Lexus buyer is 61, compared with 54 for Mercedes and 49 for BMW."

I think a lot of the older generations are not keen on being on car forums online and casting votes hence the sampling on this forum will skew towards the younger generation.

What we need to do is have a poll initially to accept age and then have equal numbers of voters from each age interval to cast their votes.

This way we will have a somewhat uniform distribution.