[STK]

Originally Posted by stefan

It's not millenials. It's mom and dad who grew up driving automatics and don't actually know how to drive stick. They aren't passing those skills down. The idea of driving being fun and car culture is also not being passed down. It's not milennial's fault they just don't know much else.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on an old shitbox to learn on. Having to learn on a test drive, on the other hand, is probably pretty daunting.

I suspect this (the fear of the unknown, lack of training) has MUCH more to do with the pickup in autos than the lap time improvements they bring.

Car culture is dying. It's very difficult to work on a contemporary car certainly relative to back in the day. (Today it is useful to code.). The number of people racing in my area is way down. Kids think of cars as an appliance. Traffic sucks and is getting worse. High priced cars are sold on amenities and luxuries and performance is reduced to 0-60 times and how much horsepower. The BMW genius sent with me on a test drive knew everything about the electronics and little about the engine/trans other than 0-60 times. This is the current reality and it's going to continue.

As for the MT, it's a great anachronism. Nothing wrong with that. But so is writing script or drafting on legal pads. So is sewing and buying patterns to make clothes. So is exclusively using hand tools for woodworking. And on and on. There are still people that do these things and get tremendous personal satisfaction. But everyone else has moved on. The niche is getting smaller and smaller.

It would be very interesting to have a breakout of the percentages of MT vs DCT by age of driver. We already know that the US has a much higher percentage of MTs than Europe. I wonder if the percentage of MTs in the US skews older. I would bet it does.

It also remains to be seen whether the MT will sell at a premium in the future. The premiums for some manuals are because the alternative was a terrible slush box. Think the 635csi. Today, the alternative might be a DCT which may also become rare as everything moves to ZF 8-speeds. Who knows, there might be a premium for DCTs from all the folks that wanted the old school paddle shifters like the F1 guys used but that were phased out...

[chris719]

Originally Posted by ClothSeats

Wow, he really doesn't like the Tremec.. and doesn't the torque-rich M5/M6 already come with a stick? These sound like excuses to not invest in the manual.

Pretty much. To insinuate that ZF or Getrag could not produce an MT gearbox that could handle 1000 ft/lb if they were paid to is stupid. Torque converter autos can handle more partially because there has been more money put into their design for other applications.

[m34m]

Originally Posted by STK

Car culture is dying. It's very difficult to work on a contemporary car certainly relative to back in the day. (Today it is useful to code.). The number of people racing in my area is way down. Kids think of cars as an appliance. Traffic sucks and is getting worse. High priced cars are sold on amenities and luxuries and performance is reduced to 0-60 times and how much horsepower. The BMW genius sent with me on a test drive knew everything about the electronics and little about the engine/trans other than 0-60 times. This is the current reality and it's going to continue.

As for the MT, it's a great anachronism. Nothing wrong with that. But so is writing script or drafting on legal pads. So is sewing and buying patterns to make clothes. So is exclusively using hand tools for woodworking. And on and on. There are still people that do these things and get tremendous personal satisfaction. But everyone else has moved on. The niche is getting smaller and smaller.

It would be very interesting to have a breakout of the percentages of MT vs DCT by age of driver. We already know that the US has a much higher percentage of MTs than Europe. I wonder if the percentage of MTs in the US skews older. I would bet it does.

It also remains to be seen whether the MT will sell at a premium in the future. The premiums for some manuals are because the alternative was a terrible slush box. Think the 635csi. Today, the alternative might be a DCT which may also become rare as everything moves to ZF 8-speeds. Who knows, there might be a premium for DCTs from all the folks that wanted the old school paddle shifters like the F1 guys used but that were phased out...

Agree completely although I wouldn't equate a manual to something as archaic as hand tools for wood working. What's interesting to me is the turn around in Europe. When I was a kid going to Europe most summers every car, truck and bus for that matter was manual. You couldn't find an automatic transmission anywhere even if you tried. I was fascinated by the capability of drivers not only driving manuals but negotiating small and often winding roads. They were masters that I wanted to emulate. Contrast that to what I saw at home which was mainly big American boats with automatics driving on roads so big and straight steering input was barely required. And when it was it could be achieved with one finger.

The dramatic change in Europe is the real story to me not North America where autos have been the norm forever. If Europe had stuck with the manual we'd be in good shape. It's an interesting irony hat the US market is the main consumer of manual M's these days.

[STK]

Originally Posted by m34m

Agree completely although I wouldn't equate a manual to something as archaic as hand tools for wood working. What's interesting to me is the turn around in Europe. When I was a kid going to Europe most summers every car, truck and bus for that matter was manual. You couldn't find an automatic transmission anywhere even if you tried. I was fascinated by the capability of drivers not only driving manuals but negotiating small and often winding roads. They were masters that I wanted to emulate. Contrast that to what I saw at home which was mainly big American boats with automatics driving on roads so big and straight steering input was barely required. And when it was it could be achieved with one finger.

The dramatic change in Europe is the real story to me not North America where autos have been the norm forever. If Europe had stuck with the manual we'd be in good shape. It's an interesting irony hat the US market is the main consumer of manual M's these days.

Most people care about convenience rather than craft. Except for a small number of enthusiasts, the old skills fade. We're car enthusiasts that will hang on to the MT but use power tools and buy our clothes off the rack. Meanwhile an amateur seamstress/tailor is making their clothes and driving a slush box. And someone is still hand writing thank-you notes. Technological progress is exciting but a little sad in what we lose.

My kid is a serious cyclist. When I was kid you had to tinker with the shifter to get the derailleur just right when shifting gears. Now it's a click shifter. At the high end, it's wireless. The brakes are moving to disks even on road bikes.

You can go to parades and see guys riding bikes with five foot diameter wheels from the 19th century. Who knows, forty years from now just driving a car might make you like one of those guys on a big wheeled bicycle.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by stefan

It's not millenials. It's mom and dad who grew up driving automatics and don't actually know how to drive stick. They aren't passing those skills down. The idea of driving being fun and car culture is also not being passed down. It's not milennial's fault they just don't know much else.

I was lucky enough to get my hands on an old shitbox to learn on. Having to learn on a test drive, on the other hand, is probably pretty daunting.

I suspect this (the fear of the unknown, lack of training) has MUCH more to do with the pickup in autos than the lap time improvements they bring.

Also people who love manual transmissions usually talk shit to people who don't know how to operate a MT. For those that don't know how to operate one I imagine that reduces their desire to ask someone to teach them.

[RAM_F30_F87]

Whenever someone asks me if they can drive either of my cars, I know that most of the time I won't even have to consider the request by asking 'Do you know how to drive a manual?'. I recommend they at least learn (but not on my M2, crunching gears and stalls would kill me) as they might need to drive a manual in an emergency (e.g. take someone to the hospital).

[chris719]

Originally Posted by m34m

The dramatic change in Europe is the real story to me not North America where autos have been the norm forever. If Europe had stuck with the manual we'd be in good shape. It's an interesting irony hat the US market is the main consumer of manual M's these days.

In the US, it's now some kind of feeling of psychological superiority or macho thing to drive a manual. In Europe, because automatics were not affordable for the general population years ago, there is now an opposite stigma. That and manuals were ubiquitous so there was nothing special about owning or driving one.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by STK

As for the MT, it's a great anachronism. Nothing wrong with that. But so is writing script or drafting on legal pads. So is sewing and buying patterns to make clothes. So is exclusively using hand tools for woodworking. And on and on. There are still people that do these things and get tremendous personal satisfaction. But everyone else has moved on. The niche is getting smaller and smaller.

I enjoyed your post and agree on all points except perhaps this one. The examples you described are a direct replacement caused by innovation and progress. And they relate to getting more product out faster to appease more people. True on the personal satisfaction front.

But if we only use that lens, then why are there sports cars at all? Really if it were a matter of "moving on" we would truly treat cars as the vehicular applicances they are and just pack them with as much autonomy, GPS, driver awareness that we can and just absolutely stop making sports cars altogether. If it's all about progress, and the driver is only using the car like a tool, then they do NOT need anything over 200hp. It shouldn't bother being fun.

But we do make sports cars. And just like tools used to carve wood by hand, we want those sports cars to be as tactile and interactive as possible. So it's not so much the transmission choice that's the anachronism. It's the sports car itself.

[STK]

Originally Posted by stefan

I enjoyed your post and agree on all points except perhaps this one. The examples you described are a direct replacement caused by innovation and progress. And they relate to getting more product out faster to appease more people. True on the personal satisfaction front.

But if we only use that lens, then why are there sports cars at all? Really if it were a matter of "moving on" we would truly treat cars as the vehicular applicances they are and just pack them with as much autonomy, GPS, driver awareness that we can and just absolutely stop making sports cars altogether. If it's all about progress, and the driver is only using the car like a tool, then they do NOT need anything over 200hp. It shouldn't bother being fun.

But we do make sports cars. And just like tools used to carve wood by hand, we want those sports cars to be as tactile and interactive as possible. So it's not so much the transmission choice that's the anachronism. It's the sports car itself.

People don't crave a dull utilitarian world, they crave an easier world. The people that stop making their own clothes because they'd rather spend the time on something else don't want to wear a uniform, they want beauty/style off the shelf they don't have to spend time making. And the majority of people that want to go fast - they love the feeling- would rather do it more easily with a DCT than a MT. And the MT guys would rather do it with synchro than double declutching. And no one want to have to crank the car by getting rid of the electric starter.

But societal passions change. As social critics have noted, young people's interests have turned from the hottest new band to the hottest new restaurant. Who could have imagined foodie culture 25 years ago?

I think America's love affair with car culture peaked a while back and is in decline. The community is just as passionate, just smaller.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by STK

As for the MT, it's a great anachronism.

Interesting points.

Comparisons are never accurate, but let's give it a try.

Think for example about watches (or 'time pieces' when more refined and expensive; maybe premium cars won't be called 'cars' anymore in the future, but 'automotive pieces' ). True that pocket watches have virtually vanished. But wrist watches have been around for decades. In the late 70s - early 80s there was the wave of digital watches (who wants those analog hands anymore? let's get digital, get a Casio watch !). But that didn't make the analog watches market disappear. And still today, despite accurate clocks on smartphones, computers, etc. the majority of people is still wearing wrist watches. Lots of digital watches available (with additional functions), but most people of whatever age still wear analog watches (lasting much longer than smartphones and not requiring frequent recharging).

True that the gearbox layout is another story as emissions, performance and convenience, influence decisions made by car manufacturers. But still, let's not forget that your personal point of view may be influenced by your past. I remember back in the 70s as a young child, upon seeing a wild car chase in an American movie, asking my dad (who was an engineer) to explain me what those strange letters were all about that I had noticed ("R", "N", "D", etc.): was it something to make the car go very fast or make the car jump ? "America !", he replied and explained in easily understandable terms for a child the difference between manual gearbox and automatics. Back in those days, the vast majority of cars over here in Europe featured a manual gearbox. And still nowadays, a lot of cars in Europe feature a manual gearbox.

SUV / 'Soccer Mom' cars: same story. Big success in the US in the 90s, but rare in Europe. Times have changed. The BMW X5 (1999) and Porsche Cayenne (2002) came, dethroned Range Rover, and the rest is history. But still, when visiting the US, it's SUV and trucks galore. Different story on European roads.

Originally Posted by STK

It would be very interesting to have a breakout of the percentages of MT vs DCT by age of driver. We already know that the US has a much higher percentage of MTs than Europe. I wonder if the percentage of MTs in the US skews older. I would bet it does.

I'd rather prefer to see the statistics of MT vs DCT ordered by customers. Thus M2 cars personally spec'ed by customers, excluding the whole batch of M2 cars (pre-)ordered by dealers. Reason: I remain convinced that the vast majority of M2 cars ordered by dealers are M-DCT, which in itself accelerates the self-fulfilling prophecy that MT popularity is declining.

Counter-argument: "Fair enough, but the dealers manage to sell all those DCT M2 cars, don't they ?". Well, the M2 is a popular car and smooth dealer talk about immediate availability ("no long waiting line !" - "next week on your driveway !"), top-notch M-DCT technology, a slightly better 0-100 km/h time, slightly better fuel consumption and emission figures, may tip the balance to sway potential customers to pick up straightaway that shiny M2 DCT sitting on the dealer lot, or soon already on its way to the dealership from the Leipzig factory.

[Haslamhazza]

How are we going to fix bmw's if the don't produce manuals?😜

[STK]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Interesting points.

Comparisons are never accurate, but let's give it a try.

Think for example about watches (or 'time pieces' when more refined and expensive; maybe premium cars won't be called 'cars' anymore in the future, but 'automotive pieces' ). True that pocket watches have virtually vanished. But wrist watches have been around for decades. In the late 70s - early 80s there was the wave of digital watches (who wants those analog hands anymore? let's get digital, get a Casio watch !). But that didn't make the analog watches market disappear. And still today, despite accurate clocks on smartphones, computers, etc. the majority of people is still wearing wrist watches. Lots of digital watches available (with additional functions), but most people of whatever age still wear analog watches (lasting much longer than smartphones and not requiring frequent recharging).

True that the gearbox layout is another story as emissions, performance and convenience, influence decisions made by car manufacturers. But still, let's not forget that your personal point of view may be influenced by your past. I remember back in the 70s as a young child, upon seeing a wild car chase in an American movie, asking my dad (who was an engineer) to explain me what those strange letters were all about that I had noticed ("R", "N", "D", etc.): was it something to make the car go very fast or make the car jump ? "America !", he replied and explained in easily understandable terms for a child the difference between manual gearbox and automatics. Back in those days, the vast majority of cars over here in Europe featured a manual gearbox. And still nowadays, a lot of cars in Europe feature a manual gearbox.

SUV / 'Soccer Mom' cars: same story. Big success in the US in the 90s, but rare in Europe. Times have changed. The BMW X5 (1999) and Porsche Cayenne (2002) came, dethroned Range Rover, and the rest is history. But still, when visiting the US, it's SUV and trucks galore. Different story on European roads.

I'd rather prefer to see the statistics of MT vs DCT ordered by customers. Thus M2 cars personally spec'ed by customers, excluding the whole batch of M2 cars (pre-)ordered by dealers. Reason: I remain convinced that the vast majority of M2 cars ordered by dealers are M-DCT, which in itself accelerates the self-fulfilling prophecy that MT popularity is declining.

Counter-argument: "Fair enough, but the dealers manage to sell all those DCT M2 cars, don't they ?". Well, the M2 is a popular car and smooth dealer talk about immediate availability ("no long waiting line !" - "next week on your driveway !"), top-notch M-DCT technology, a slightly better 0-100 km/h time, slightly better fuel consumption and emission figures, may tip the balance to sway potential customers to pick up straightaway that shiny M2 DCT sitting on the dealer lot, or soon already on its way to the dealership from the Leipzig factory.

At least in the US, M2s were allocated and people on allocation placed a specific order with the four options- color, trans, EP, and CarPlay. (This doesn't count the port options.). I really don't think many M2s in the US were ordered by dealers and then sold to the public. Can't speak for Europe although from posters on this site, people did seem choose their options including trans. The only cars that were forced on the dealers were the performance models. So I think the DCT/MT split reflects customer choice. Be happy to be shown otherwise but I just don't see it. My guess is US oldsters represent a disproportionate share of MTs. Habit, pride, nostalgia, fun. Probably listening to classic rock... There's less of you than you think. 80/20 DCT/MT world-wide and less than 40% US.

As for watches digital vs analog is a style issue. The real shift was from mechanical to battery power. The mechanical watch is more for enthusiasts.

[Denk]

Just like naturally aspirated M cars are already dead, it's only a matter of time with the 6mt. I've moved on in one area, holding on to the other.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by Black Gold

Other than their desire to phase out fun, the frustrating part is the bull sh&t and the lies

Dct style transmissions can clearly handle torque. All day long. See the 911 turbo and Ferrari 488

Maybe it's not cost effective and the autos are cheaper.

But it sure as sh&t isn't because they can't handle torque

The manual argument is similarly ridiculous.

Bingo. It's all about cost. Follow the dollars to the real answer. Of course there are manual transmissions that can handle torque. I've driven an 18 speed Freightliner with more than 2000 lbft torque. BMW might have to try a little harder and spend some R&D effort on developing a manual/DCT that can reliably handle increasing torque numbers and keep weight down. But the payoff is just not there to take on the work with only 20% of their customers buying them. It's sad.

Hey I know, just switch to straight cut gears in all manual/DCT. Torque problem solved!

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by stefan

It's not millenials. It's mom and dad who grew up driving automatics and don't actually know how to drive stick. They aren't passing those skills down. The idea of driving being fun and car culture is also not being passed down. It's not milennial's fault they just don't know much else.

As much as I like me some good old fashioned "get the hell off my lawn and turn that music down you damn kids" millennial bashing, I have to agree. It' my generation's (Gen-X) fault. Most of my friends know how to drive a manual but haven't done so in years. They got sucked into SUVs and minivans in the late 90s when they started having kids and they haven't looked back. Now their kids are of driving age and many aren't motivated to even get a car, let alone be interested in motoring culture/history. Giving 2 shits about what transmission is in the car is even further down the list of things they could not care less about.

[Encinitas CA M2+M5 Owner]

The increased speed, the Manual has a limited time, I like DCT but it appears a Manual M2 is really gonna hold up value wise, especially if you plan to keep it 5 years....Great thinkers are ahead of the curve...this is a clue...get your Manual M2 NOW....

[Gatte]

These are a lot of interesting and very valid points. If you really want to see the largest use of manual transmission cars, you would need to go to asia.

I grew up in India and learnt to drive on manual transmission cars only. Like most kids, I always wanted to drive and my dad used to let me park his car in the garage in the night and reverse it out for him in the morning by the time I was 10-11 years old. Back then and right till I left for the US to study, I had never driven an automatic transmission car. Everyone used to learn to drive manual transmissions and if you've been to India you will know that there is a lot of stop-go traffic which requires you to use the clutch a lot more than in most cities in the US. I don't think I have ever heard anyone complain about the transmission in their cars (Traffic yes but never the transmission)

The first time and a few times after, that I had to drive an automatic transmission car in the US, was really weird. Your leg always goes for the clutch which isn't there and it took a little time to get used to it. Then, I actually thought it was pretty neat, not having to constantly use the clutch like I had to before.

When I bought my M235i, I debated the transmission choice a lot and changed my order from auto to manual to auto which is how I ended up getting it. When I had to get a 4 door sedan to drive friends around, I ended up getting a nice E39 V8 540i with a stick (I have always loved the shape and look of the E39). I found out in 3 months of owning both cars that I drove the older and slower 540i a lot more than I drove my almost new M235i. That's when I realized how much I liked rowing through the gears myself and how much of a difference it makes to the whole driving experience.

One of my co-workers who has a few very nice cars wants his eldest daughter to learn to drive on a manual transmission car. He said her first car will be a used car with a manual transmission. If more people did that with their kids, I am sure there will be some demand for manual transmission cars in the future and hopefully car manufacturers will continue to service that demand.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Gatte

Like most kids, I always wanted to drive and my dad used to let me park his car in the garage in the night and reverse it out for him in the morning by the time I was 10-11 years old.

As a toddler, my father regularly took me on his lap to "steer" the car upon entering/maneuvering into our garage from our driveway. Of course he held his hands discreetly at the bottom of the steering wheel while my hands were on the top part. My feet couldn't reach yet for pedals. Sweet memories.

I continued this 'tradition' with my daughter: at very young age I frequently took her on my lap inside private underground garages (100% private road - no public or semi-public garages) to drive around at snail speed while she was holding the top part of the steering wheel. Needless to say that she kept on giggling, especially as mummy was a bit reluctant about this kind of thing.

[Kid Eh]

For me it's just more fun. My first bunch of cars were all manual. Then I started my journey into BMW.

2000 - e46 323i - manual
2007 - e92 328i - manual
2009 - e90 335i - auto
2013 - e92 335is - dct
2017 - M2 - manual (week 20 build)

So basically I've been away from a manual car for about 8 years. I really miss it. The DCT was phenomenal but I don't think I'll regret getting back into rowing. I've had MX bikes since I was 12 years old so I've had that form of shifting gears to keep me busy. Can't imagine a bike being "auto". Zzzzzzzzz.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by Artemis

As a toddler, my father regularly took me on his lap to "steer" the car upon entering/maneuvering into our garage from our driveway. Of course he held his hands discreetly at the bottom of the steering wheel while my hands were on the top part. My feet couldn't reach yet for pedals. Sweet memories.

I continued this 'tradition' with my daughter: at very young age I frequently took her on my lap inside private underground garages (100% private road - no public or semi-public garages) to drive around at snail speed while she was holding the top part of the steering wheel. Needless to say that she kept on giggling, especially as mummy was a bit reluctant about this kind of thing.

My earliest memory of holding the steering wheel was when our driver let me sit on his lap in an HM Ambassador (The car that won the top gear taxi challenge) on the way to my Aunt's wedding. He just let me hold the steering wheel on long straight stretches of the highway and honk the horn. Even though it was a long long time ago (I must have been in 2nd grade and in the 90s), the memory is very vivid in my head including the roads and how they looked.

Good times.

[Gatte]

Originally Posted by Kid Eh

So basically I've been away from a manual car for about 8 years. I really miss it. The DCT was phenomenal but I don't think I'll regret getting back into rowing. I've had MX bikes since I was 12 years old so I've had that form of shifting gears to keep me busy. Can't imagine a bike being "auto". Zzzzzzzzz.

There are scooters now that are auto which like cars are gaining a lot of momentum with a lot of customers opting for them (I don't get it either). Vespas are selling a tonne of them.

Motorbikes and scooters are fun too. Not sure if anyone's even heard of Lambretta. They made beautiful looking scooters (look them up) which I think were even better looking than vespas. It was also the first automobile that I learnt to ride and we had to switch gears with our hands while clutching the clutch.

Also rode regular bikes as I got older for regular commute. My uncle's older Enfield bullet used to have the transmission and brakes on the wrong side. It was also super ungainly but was a tonne of fun once you were able to kick-start it and as long as you did not drop it on yourself.

[BurpZilla]

Great discussion!

My first manual car I learned on was a Toyota Tercel, then a early gen nissan altima. My older cousins said I had no option and had to learn. I keep thanking them for it! I will no doubt teach my son and buy him a nice used manual car when he is able to drive...although in 16 years no doubt as this thread highlights times may change!

I have no problem with it in traffic, although I can see how people can get annoyed by it.

I agree the only way to encourage manufactures is to teach manual as much as you can!