[STK]

Honestly, once they added synchromesh in the 1950s, the manual became a transmission for pussies. Now you only have to press the clutch once to shift gears. What's the f-ing point? It took away all the skill. And the connection to the car disappeared.

Now all you DCT kids, GET OFF MY LAWN!

[ZPrime]

Heh, the synchros are supposedly awful on my TT... i've been double-declutching when I drop from 6 to 3 coming off the highway (sweeper offramp), just to try to be nice to them.

[STK]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

Heh, the synchros are supposedly awful on my TT... i've been double-declutching when I drop from 6 to 3 coming off the highway (sweeper offramp), just to try to be nice to them.

Too funny. Now THAT'S a dying skill. My point of course is there is always some curmudgeon bemoaning the loss of the older more difficult technology. It's funny we don't see these screeds against anti-lock brakes because "it took out all the skill" and "no one knows how to threshold brake anymore," Same story w/manuals and DCTs in the M2.

This bitching probably began when the electric starter replaced the crank. "Now even a woman or child can start a car - where's the skill in that?"

[F87LUV]

Originally Posted by STK

Too funny. Now THAT'S a dying skill. My point of course is there is always some curmudgeon bemoaning the loss of the older more difficult technology. It's funny we don't see these screeds against anti-lock brakes because "it took out all the skill" and "no one knows how to threshold brake anymore," Same story w/manuals and DCTs in the M2.

This bitching probably began when the electric starter replaced the crank. "Now even a woman or child can start a car - where's the skill in that?"

Tough pill it must be to swallow to know that you don't need that extra appendage to operate a motor vehicle anymore.

[STK]

Originally Posted by F87LUV

Tough pill it must be to swallow to know that you don't need that extra appendage to operate a motor vehicle anymore.

You must be referring to a left leg for the clutch pedal.

[heart_doctor]

Originally Posted by BMWMTWO

So I started out with a reservation for a euro-delivery 6MT. Found out months later that euro reservations get bumped to the back of the line as long as there is a wait list (Im no VIP). So to move back up the line I agreed to take local delivery and since I don't have an allocation yet I can still change my mind and I'm seriously considering a DCT. My reasoning is that I think it's better suited for a turbocharged engine. That, and the fact it appears to be one of the best transmissions on the market. I'll be honest, if it wasn't also faster I wouldn't even consider it, but it is and it matters to me and probably many people here which is why I'm asking you. So the argument in my mind is do I go for a 6MT which suits the dimensions of the car, or do I embrace it for what it is, technology laden and finish it off with a DCT? So please chime in specifically about how does it drive in manual mode, is it still engaging? If it is then I don't see any downsides and will likely go with DCT. And for the record, I have had plenty of MT cars, 78 e21 (1st car), 82 Scirocco, 76 914, 72 240Z, 88 IROC Z. I even drove a 10 speed 45 ft tractor trailer professionally in the past so let's not make this a real men drive MT argument, I'm well aware of the virtues of a MT. Thanks in advance.

My previous car was a 2011 e92 m3 with 6mt. There were days that I found it hard to live with that transmission and other days where I couldn't imagine the car without it.

I decided to go with the DCT on my M2 and for my purposes I find it a fantastic transmission. Very easy to live with on a day to day basis. Still very engaging and fun to drive. Having said that there are days where I miss the 6MT. Do I have regrets about getting the DCT, absolutely not. Very happy with my choice.

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

Interesting. the VAG boxes have the kick-down button at the bottom of the pedal, but they will kick-down to the lowest "sane" gear when you touch that and that alone, without doing anything with the paddles. So if you want to hit VMAX ASAP on a VW/Audi, you can just mat the long pedal no matter what mode the gearbox is in.

It has its plusses and minuses. Makes it hard to hit 100% throttle without hitting the kick-down portion, but again, their default behavior is also to upshift at redline unless you've got specific RS models or have flashed the transmission.

I would absolutely *hate* that, especially on a track. If I'm in manual mode, it's 'cause want to be in a particular gear at a given time. The only reason the software should override me, is to prevent me from hurting the car.

I finally got the drive a 6-speed M2 Saturday. Admittedly, all I was doing was making sure the braking exercise for Street Survival was set up properly. It seemed pretty nice, and the rev-match feature works well. But, I still don't miss it.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by STK

You must be referring to a left leg for the clutch pedal.

Wait, people move their feet off the outer pedals for some reason? I thought that's what the fly in pants was for, so you can brake with your "third leg?"

Funny part is that I'm only 36 and I didn't learn to drive stick until ~2004 or so... and I had a 7 year stint in the middle in a dual-clutch car so I've really only been consistently driving manual again for the past 2 years. I'm definitely not as old and crusty as some manual-lovers. I'm also very mindful of the benefits of DCT. Honestly, if it was a $500 or maybe even $1000 option, I'd probably take the DCT, but I'm not paying $2900 for it.

I'm certainly not quick or accurate enough to double-declutch regularly, but coming off the highway on a straight leading up to a cloverleaf offramp, I have enough time to get my declutch-neutral-clutch-blip-declutch-downshift-blip-clutch in. When people constantly whine about 2nd and 3rd synchros on the car, I figure it's the least I can do to preserve them...

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by ajvdh

I would absolutely *hate* that, especially on a track. If I'm in manual mode, it's 'cause want to be in a particular gear at a given time. The only reason the software should override me, is to prevent me from hurting the car.

I felt the same way, which is why I had my DSG flashed with software that made it ignore the kickdown button when in the +/- "M" mode.

I finally got to test drive a 6MT, it was a 340xi that seemed to be Msport kitted out, so it had the autoblip too. Helped cement my feeling that I didn't need to pay $2900 for the DCT. If I had money to burn I would, but that money can go to a winter wheel/tire setup for me, and maybe I'll finally be able to teach my wife stick on this car - the clutch is super light and the trans feels so much nicer than the VAG transverse cable-operated boxes.

[STK]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

Wait, people move their feet off the outer pedals for some reason? I thought that's what the fly in pants was for, so you can brake with your "third leg?"

Funny part is that I'm only 36 and I didn't learn to drive stick until ~2004 or so... and I had a 7 year stint in the middle in a dual-clutch car so I've really only been consistently driving manual again for the past 2 years. I'm definitely not as old and crusty as some manual-lovers. I'm also very mindful of the benefits of DCT. Honestly, if it was a $500 or maybe even $1000 option, I'd probably take the DCT, but I'm not paying $2900 for it.

I'm certainly not quick or accurate enough to double-declutch regularly, but coming off the highway on a straight leading up to a cloverleaf offramp, I have enough time to get my declutch-neutral-clutch-blip-declutch-downshift-blip-clutch in. When people constantly whine about 2nd and 3rd synchros on the car, I figure it's the least I can do to preserve them...

I think it's great that you can double-declutch. But my guess is that the vast majority of manual users would hate it. I'm also guessing that some purists in the 1950s thought synchros were cheating, required no skill, and weren't for real enthusiasts. I'm also a bit surprised that a lot of folks are here that want the auto-blip off with all the nannies on. Purists with a safety net. But I'm all for that too. It would be great to have the ability to set up the are however you like. I guess that's my point. I like heal and toeing too. But I don't know if I want a manual again for the 25-40 minute 7 mile commute. Did it before but I'm starting to lean against it.

I also believe there is a bit of the "dying art" effect in the US while in Europe it's good riddance. Also the F1 drivers us paddles and the Nascar drivers use a MT.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by STK

I think it's great that you can double-declutch. But my guess is that the vast majority of manual users would hate it. I'm also guessing that some purists in the 1950s thought synchros were cheating, required no skill, and weren't for real enthusiasts. I'm also a bit surprised that a lot of folks are here that want the auto-blip off with all the nannies on. Purists with a safety net. But I'm all for that too. It would be great to have the ability to set up the are however you like. I guess that's my point. I like heal and toeing too. But I don't know if I want a manual again for the 25-40 minute 7 mile commute. Did it before but I'm starting to lean against it.

I also believe there is a bit of the "dying art" effect in the US while in Europe it's good riddance. Also the F1 drivers us paddles and the Nascar drivers use a MT.

Agreed 100% on this, although I doubt that anyone thought of synchros as bad in the 50s. It was mechanical/technological progress, which back then was a big deal. Look at the space race - exciting massive advances in technology, and everyone watched and held their breath during moon launches. Now people carry what would've been considered "supercomputers" in their pockets, and we all piss and moan when it takes more than a second or two for the data to magically beam through the air after travelling tens or hundreds of miles to get there.

DCT is definitely the way of the future, but in the US there's that giant stigma of "sports cars should have manuals, because that's how it's always been." In Europe everything has a manual, but we all got spoiled by torque converters ages ago and people became lazy and dumb... it certainly makes a driver's test easier for a teen driver when they don't need to worry about rowing their own gears.

I can also heel-toe pretty well, and I enjoy the "dance" of it, but I appreciate that a computer will rev-match way better than I ever can. Allowing the computer to do it for me on a track would allow me to better focus on braking, which should mean better lap times. I have zero problems with this at all, and TBH I would like the ability to leave rev-match enabled when traction control is entirely off. It's really quite stupid that BMW don't expose the rev-match feature as an option in iDrive or something. I get why it is on by default - helps preserve clutch - but the owner should have the ability to mess with the behavior should they so choose. The auto-revmatch is a really slick feature that I'm looking forward to having. It also helps that the clutch is very light and a relatively short throw (compared to my TT), and the longitudinal transmission is a much better arrangement (interface-wise) than transverse with stupid shift cables.

Anyway, we've gone a bit off topic...

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

Wait, people move their feet off the outer pedals for some reason? I thought that's what the fly in pants was for, so you can brake with your "third leg?"

Funny part is that I'm only 36 and I didn't learn to drive stick until ~2004 or so... and I had a 7 year stint in the middle in a dual-clutch car so I've really only been consistently driving manual again for the past 2 years. I'm definitely not as old and crusty as some manual-lovers. I'm also very mindful of the benefits of DCT. Honestly, if it was a $500 or maybe even $1000 option, I'd probably take the DCT, but I'm not paying $2900 for it.

I'm certainly not quick or accurate enough to double-declutch regularly, but coming off the highway on a straight leading up to a cloverleaf offramp, I have enough time to get my declutch-neutral-clutch-blip-declutch-downshift-blip-clutch in. When people constantly whine about 2nd and 3rd synchros on the car, I figure it's the least I can do to preserve them...

With most modern synchro transmissions, double-clutching is unnecessary. It also doubles your chances of screwing up. I've owned cars with weak synchros, where double-clutching came in handy, but that was a long time ago. My track toy is an E36 with over 100k miles on it. I rev-match, 'cause I don't like spinning on corner entry, but I never double clutch.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by ajvdh

With most modern synchro transmissions, double-clutching is unnecessary. It also doubles your chances of screwing up. I've owned cars with weak synchros, where double-clutching came in handy, but that was a long time ago. My track toy is an E36 with over 100k miles on it. I rev-match, 'cause I don't like spinning on corner entry, but I never double clutch.

About the only reason I'm doing it is because 2nd and 3rd synchros on my current car are a supposed "known weak point." I don't do it often, only when I have enough time to setup the shift properly.

There's one line in some of the BMW marketing garbage for the M2 that implies it either has carbon fiber synchros or carbon fiber in the clutch...

The new BMW M2 comes as standard with a six-speed manual gearbox, which stands out with its compact design and low weight. The use of a new type of carbon-fibre friction lining enhances shift comfort.

Not sure if that means the clutch disc has CF in it, or if there's something special inside the gearbox itself... would love to see a box torn open for more details on that.

[DivideBYZero]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Test drive an AT if a DCT is not available. The DCT is basically the same thing except much faster shifting and some interesting throttle blipping on downshifts.

I strongly disagree with this. I have in my car collection both the ZF8 and the 7DCT. They are nowhere near the same, in any way, other than having a "D" setting for full auto mode.

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by DivideBYZero

I strongly disagree with this. I have in my car collection both the ZF8 and the 7DCT. They are nowhere near the same, in any way, other than having a "D" setting for full auto mode.

Why is that? The differences I see are faster shifting, and throttle blips on downshifts. Also the DCT will make clunking sounds sometimes when moving from stop while ZF8 won't.

[jdarwin]

After a couple of weeks w/ DCT, I don't miss throwing a leather knob around. I have an E30 and 2002 if I truly want to feel "old school". In this modern piece of technology, I don't. The DCT is magic and is incredibly well mated to this vehicle - as the instructors/drivers at the Performance Center in SC noted. I can get that "manual" feel by clicking paddles or flicking the gear shift - all without worrying about missing a gear or having to push on a pedal in precise synchronization. It's insanely good. Yes, it's a $2900 investment and I would surmise most who elect 6MT either have never experienced it or simply don't want the price of their car creeping close to $60k. But in my mind, it's worth every penny.

[ajvdh]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Why is that? The differences I see are faster shifting, and throttle blips on downshifts. Also the DCT will make clunking sounds sometimes when moving from stop while ZF8 won't.

As I said in a previous post on this very thread: "I disagree with the comment about about it being similar to an AT. My wife's car has the ZF 8 speed, and that's quite different from the DCT. The DCT doesn't "creep" with you lift off the brake. There's never any torque converter feel, and the shifts are manual-style positive."

I also briefly owned a track-package 228i with the ZF. In Sport modes, it was more aggressive than the same box in my wife's X1 (and it also blips on downshifts), but even then, there was still a little sloppiness which is missing from the DCT.

In short, the DCT feels like a manual, the ZF feels like an automatic, albeit a very good one.

[David1]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

About the only reason I'm doing it is because 2nd and 3rd synchros on my current car are a supposed "known weak point." I don't do it often, only when I have enough time to setup the shift properly.

There's one line in some of the BMW marketing garbage for the M2 that implies it either has carbon fiber synchros or carbon fiber in the clutch...


Not sure if that means the clutch disc has CF in it, or if there's something special inside the gearbox itself... would love to see a box torn open for more details on that.

The CF is on the synchro itself on the main shaft facing sleeve side. It is not in the clutch.

[Ian ///M]

Originally Posted by STK

Honestly, once they added synchromesh in the 1950s, the manual became a transmission for pussies. Now you only have to press the clutch once to shift gears. What's the f-ing point? It took away all the skill. And the connection to the car disappeared.

Now all you DCT kids, GET OFF MY LAWN!

This post supports exactly my point of an original post. If the 6MT experience has dwindled down to gerber baby status, what's the point? I see huge threads about coding out rev match, etc. doesnt sound fun lol.

[samlc7]

Hi Folks,

Long time reader, first time poster. I'm on the list for an M2 in the bay area, so I don't have the car yet. However, I was wondering if anyone can comment on the speed of downshifts? In other words, if I hit the (-) paddle, is the shift immediate?

Poor comparison, but I had a VW GTI with DSG a few years back. Upshift was fast, but downshift was quite laggy and unsatisfying.

What's the word? Thanks!

Sam

[jdarwin]

Yes. Immediate - assuming the downshift will not subject the engine to redline RPM's.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by jdarwin

Yes. Immediate - assuming the downshift will not subject the engine to redline RPM's.

I would argue that point... I have extensive VW DSG experience but very little with the DCT, but this is a matter of physics and not anything car-specific.

The way all dual-clutch transmissions work these days, there are two gear shafts that connect to concentric input shafts. The two different input shafts use two different clutches to mate up to the motor. Each clutch handles a different set of gears - normally they are laid out even on one clutch, odd on the other.

Any modern DCT uses throttle position and accelerometer data to try to guess what the driver is attempting to do. If you have the throttle matted, it's logical that you're accelerating, so when you're moving up the revs through 3rd, the transmission prepares 4th gear on the even clutch, and when you hit redline and change up, it simply opens the odd clutch and closes the even clutch and you're in 4th with almost no power interruption.

The problems occur when you "catch out" the transmission by doing something it wasn't expecting. If you're accelerating, but then suddenly decide you want a lower gear and hit the - paddle or - on the stick, it has to un-select 4th and instead grab 2nd instead. This takes time. While it is doing that, it won't execute the actual shift, because this would cause an interruption of power flow (effectively like standing on the clutch pedal for an extended period of time).

A lot of times when people have problems with DSG on a VW, this is why. There are ways to signal to the transmission that you are going to want downshifts instead of more upshifts - slight throttle lift just before you want to make the downshift will help it figure out WTF is going on, at least in VAG world. The converse is true as well - if your upshifts are jerking or laggy, you might be subconsciously lifting throttle a bit (like you would on a 6MT) which will cause it to think maybe you don't actually want to go up a gear and possibly will start selecting a lower gear... there's a bit of a learning curve to driving a dual-clutch trans "right," if you want to get the best behavior out of it.

I have to assume the BMW DCT can get "confused" the same way - it's just computers and physics.