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      04-10-2017, 09:41 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Verdi View Post
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Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
Because then they will be flamed with things like: Laziness, you're not a purist, you don't know how to shift properly, you're probably disabled or too old etc etc.

For me having had>15 manual tranny cars (overhere where I'm from a manual tranny is not an art or something)
I really regretted my E90 M3 having 6MT. Long gearing, V8 doesn't have grunt down low...Not kidding.

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Can't we just agree that it's about personal preference instead of this eternal debate?

I had a DCT last summer and have a manual now. Both have their pros and cons. Sometimes I miss the DCT but most of the time I do not. Like many others I'd say DCT for the track and manual for the street.
Off course it's about personal preference but I'm sure there are guys who regret their 6MT vs DCT but not saying anything because of mentioned (and other )reasons

This thread is about DCT drivers and their experience with it . I'm doing trackdays 5-6 times a year. But also in the street in manual mode it's just the way I want it.

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      04-10-2017, 10:11 AM   #46
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Owned DSG in the past, currently DCT and PDK. Have also owned plenty MTs including a Lotus Elise SC. I host and attend about 5 track sessions a year. My preference when I was purchasing the M2 was to go MT because of all the reviews and peer pressure saying that "if you are a purist, you need MT". At the time, there was only one DCT available and I convinced myself to go DCT. The only time I question my decision is when I'm reading these boards or talking to friends/enthusiast. Don't remember how many times I had to answer the question, why did you go automatic? You had a Lotus, I thought you were a purist! Guess what, I do not miss it one bit when I'm driving it on the track. I'm always in Manual mode when I'm DDing. I do not feel I'm more engaged because I have to step on a clutch pedal or shift with my right hand holding a stick. We spending thousands of dollars modding our cars trying to get a tenth off our time, why shouldn't I go DCT if I care about the performance? I don't want the transmission to be the bottle neck and regret not going DCT one day. Yes, I'm a sore loser and I don't want to be beaten by someone with a DCT knowing everything else is the same.
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      04-10-2017, 11:34 AM   #47
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Random,disorganized thoughts:

I'd owned nothing but manuals for 35 years. I bought my dealer's HEA car, so my choices were "DCT" or "Wait lord knows how long for the next allocation." I'd instructed in dual-clutch cars before, so I wasn't going in totally blind. It took me a couple of weeks to get used to, but once I got there, I thought "Why on earth would anyone handicap this car with a manual?" Yeah, IMO, it's that good.

I never run in auto mode. Back roads, track, autocross, stop and go traffic, it's in manual mode, and traction control is usually off. It took me a couple of weeks to get figure out the shift points. I now rarely look at the gear indicator. I do it by sound, feel, and occasional glances at the tach. I'm in the gear I want to be in effortlessly, all the time.

I disagree with the comment about about it being similar to an AT. My wife's car has the ZF 8 speed, and that's quite different from the DCT. The DCT doesn't "creep" with you lift off the brake. There's never any torque converter feel, and the shifts are manual-style positive.

You do have to realize it's neither a traditional automatic, or a stick. IMO, it drives more like a manual, If you're a little sloppy on the gas in first or second, you'll feel the same kind of driveline lash you'd feel in a manual box. You shouldn't ride the brake in stop-and-go; that's the equivalent of driving a manual with the clutch pedal half-pressed.

In manual mode, the only time it will override you, is if the RPM drops to low, or if you ask it to downshift at too high an RPM (though it'll queue multiple downshifts and bang them off when the RPM is low enough). You can sit on the rev limiter all day without it upshifting, just like in a manual.

After almost a year of ownership, the car makes me giggle every time I drive it. And the DCT adds to the giggle factor.
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      04-10-2017, 11:39 PM   #48
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Thank you for all the responses everyone, 6MT owners as well. The reason I asked specifically for DCT owners opinions was that I already know what the benefits of a MT are while I have minimal exposure to DCT. The previous 3 posts is exactly the feedback I wanted, owners that primarily drove in manual mode on the street and still enjoyed it. This highlights the flexibility of the transmission although a few DCT owners did mention they got bored on the street. 1 of the posts mentioned if people spend thousands for performance upgrades why not consider DCT. This hits it on the nose as far as why I'm seriously considering it. If performance did not matter why is everyone going apeshit over the possibility of a CS or GTS? Why do people buy an S over a base 911. You see my point. The engagement factor of a MT is real, in fact Im still considering it. But the Dark Side is calling and I'm not sure I can run away fast enough.
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      04-11-2017, 06:42 AM   #49
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Got mine last Wednesday. Now I've done almost 1000km in it.
I love it and I think DCT adds to fun, at least for me. Was out 30 minutes ago for a lunch drive on the countryside with my son.
"That punch when DCT is changing up is really the best" he said.
The punch in Sport+ is really nice.
This is my first automatic sports car (see my list of MT), so I have really tried some MT...

M2 is all about fun, so at the end of the day it is all a matter of personal preference. Unless you have to be faster, then you have to get DCT.
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      04-11-2017, 04:34 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
In bold. What do you mean by that? You can hear the engine, see the revcounter, see the gearnumber displayed etc.

In october at Assen it was a wonderful transmission. Doing everything fast and crisp and all. Never had a feeling I was in the wrong(tranny) car. It was also feeling natural(gearchange and which gear I was in)
The way it goes from 3rd/4th in a sweeping bend is mindblowingly fast....no hassle nothing just thrust and bam



Anyway. 6MT will be a bit more engaging but since this is a 2017 modern turbocharged sportscar, the DCT fits perfectly to the engine. AND it has one gear more. On the Autobahn less noise, less revs, less stress.

But with either one you're fine.

Heading for Germany for our first track/driftday this year within an hour.


Cheers
Robin
Every lap there were 2 corners where the tranny wasn't holding the gear. It is a very busy extremely technical track - lots of elevation and camber variety. You have no time to look down to see what gear you're in.
That's my only complaint!
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      04-11-2017, 04:38 PM   #51
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All these MT aids that come with this car , seems like you are just rowing gears for nostalgia reasons. I'm good on that
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      04-11-2017, 06:24 PM   #52
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I have had a DCT M2 for about 1 year and put 9600 miles on it so far. I have no issues with the DCT for daily driving and spiriting driving. I’ll probably never track it, but then again I don’t golf either. No free time!


I drove a 97 M3 with a 5 speed manual for six years and put about 70k miles on that car. My prior car was a ’94 325is with 5 speed manual, put about 48k on that, before that ’88 CRX with 5 speed, put 68k on that, and before that a 1980 Honda Accord also with a 5 speed manual, which I drove from 60k to 140k (80k) before selling that one.

At the time I had my M3 I was truly disappointed to see the first automatic transmission M3, I thought that was just so wrong! My dad had a couple 5 speed M5’s at that time also which I drove quite a few times. His third had SMG. The manual M5’s were more fun since the first edition of the SMG was not very good.


(The first car I drove was a ’76 Cutlas S with a slush box and a 350 V8 LOL.)

I never had an issues in traffic with any of my manual transmission cars. I drove in Boston traffic for about 6 years with manuals (last two years of college and the med school), and did not have issues with hills. I had many miles logged in manual transmission cars, both rear wheel drive and front wheel drive. The M3 was of them the most fun and engaging to drive.

I changed back to an automatic with my 2000 A6 4.2sport which had a 5 speed automatic with traditional torque converter and manual mode via the shift lever. Manual mode (tiptronic) was a way to have some control over gear selection. My biggest issue with that car was that it shifted to second gear too soon making pulling out into traffic dicy.

I still drive my 03 RS6 which has basically the same 5 speed auto (just beefed up internals and more sporty TCU) with paddle shifters and a much more aggressive ‘manual mode.’ So after putting 142,000 miles on that car with it’s Tiptronic the DCT is a huge improvement over that ‘slush box.’

I drive my RS6 in manual very often and control with the paddle shifters, especially for spirited driving. The car does not know when you are about to try to pass someone on the highway so having manual control is a must. The torque converter in the RS6 locks in all 5 gears which is very different from other applications of the ZF 5 speed it uses. It will up shift automatically at the red line and will downshift when you slow down below some point, but otherwise it follows your will. If you use the paddle shifters to make it go to ‘manual’ mode rather than using the shifter selection as manual, it will drop back to full auto mode after a few minutes. But when in the manual ‘gate’ on the shifter it stays in manual. You can shift with the shifter also (reverse direction as the M2)

I drove an 13 A8L for 4 years and it’s 8 speed auto was a huge improvement on the RS’s (10 years newer technology LOL) and shifted faster and it’s manual mode was also pretty good. The quicker shifting transmission made it better still. That car only had manual shifting via the paddles. The main shift lever did not have up down settings.

Now the M2 DCT is a huge improvement on those auto transmissions. The fact that it holds gear at the redline and does not up-shift gives you real control. The fact that it does downshift at slower speeds is not a distraction since if you did not down shift your Manual at those engine speeds you would most likely stall your engine. The speed at which it changes gears is hard to beat with your own hand and foot. The lack of the clutch pedal does not distract from manual control, it just eliminates missing a shift!

When you get on it the DCT downshifts skipping gears to the next best gear and it downshifts pretty quick. It up shifts faster due to the configuration, i.e. next gear is already preselected just waiting for the clutch swap. In comfort mode it shifts sooner at lower RPMS and more gently. In Sport mode it shifts quicker and with a kick if you get on it. It stays in higher RPMs in sport and sport + and will not use 7th unless you put the cruise control on or go over 80 if I recall. Comfort will go to 7th at pretty low speeds ? 50 or less if I recall.

If you want to turn while shifting you need to really know where the paddles are as you turn the wheel, or use the shift selector.

I have no issue knowing what gear I am in since I have gotten used to the engine note and tachometer gives a clue (look at it with peripheral vision). Again as I stated years ago on the RS6 forum, the central display should be programable to display the gear selection in a HUGE number so you can see it quickly but I guess I am the only one on the planet who thought that was a good idea. The A8L had a function that would show you when to shift with a bright light (green, yellow, RED) which was a VagCom coding thing that also added a boost gage and a lap timer. LOL.

The slow speed crawl mode is pretty useful in traffic. You just tap the gas peddle and the car will crawl along at a slow speed.

If you use the cruise control in conjunction with the AUTOMATIC you can navigate slow traffic with your fingers! LOL.

I don’t miss the manual transmission but as I said before I would have bought the car with either transmission choice based on availability when I needed a car!

Mike
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      04-12-2017, 04:25 PM   #53
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(though it'll queue multiple downshifts and bang them off when the RPM is low enough).
Curious as to how this works / more detail here. If you're up in 6th or 7th and want to drop it to 3rd for a pass, can you just hit the down paddle 3 times and will it jump straight down to 3rd? Or does it go down sequentially? Presumably if you put it back into "auto" mode and then mash the throttle it is smart enough to skip gears going down at least?

And the scenario you explicitly mentioned, I assume that's while braking for a turn and you hit (-) a couple times, it will blip and go down, and then as revs drop to a point where another downshift wouldn't over-rev, it will blip and go down a second time? Is there any magic trick like "hold the (-) paddle for a second or more to get the lowest gear possible at this time"?

Quote:
You can sit on the rev limiter all day without it upshifting, just like in a manual.
My previous car was a VAG DSG box, note that this is not the standard behavior on most of their transmissions. I believe some of the RS cars with S-tronic/dual clutch boxes may not auto-upshift, but all of the other DSG cars do (unless you've flashed the software on the transmission to override it).

Like the OP, I'm having a very hard time making up my mind between the two options... I think I need to get some seat time in both, which is nearly impossible around here. (I hopefully can try an M3 or M4 in DCT; they'll have more power but I believe the transmission is the same?)

It sucks that DCT is another ~$3k too. That would pay for winter wheels/tires pretty easily... It also sucks that both my brother and my father will give me shit and whine if I don't get a 6MT. I appreciate both for their own reasons... in a turbo car my gut instinct is to go DCT so boost is maintained during shifts, but the car nerd in me likes the idea of 6MT. My current car is 6MT and I'm not a big fan, but I think most of that is because this specific 6MT is "meh" at best. But that is coloring my vision now, which is why I really need to get behind the wheel of a BMW 6MT.

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      04-12-2017, 05:46 PM   #54
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If you hold the paddle for the downshift, the DCT will jump to the lowest safe gear. Happens on the highway when your in 7 and dogging along and want to jump forward.
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      04-12-2017, 05:54 PM   #55
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It would be a big mistake not to get the manual imo.
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      04-13-2017, 05:10 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by her02k View Post
It would be a big mistake not to get the manual imo.
At PCD, all the instructors said the DCT was the best choice for the M2. Street or track. They should know.
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      04-13-2017, 05:18 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdarwin View Post
At PCD, all the instructors said the DCT was the best choice for the M2. Street or track. They should know.
The instructors are obviously brainwashed robots with no sense of heritage, tradition and culture

Just like me!

Cheers
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      04-13-2017, 09:08 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin_NL View Post
The instructors are obviously brainwashed robots with no sense of heritage, tradition and culture

Just like me!

Cheers
Robin
Those brainwashed robots have taken over some of the driving schools here as well.
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      04-13-2017, 09:28 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by 3Si View Post
Those brainwashed robots have taken over some of the driving schools here as well.
your avatar is sick.

to stay on topic.....DCT for the win
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      04-13-2017, 02:41 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
Curious as to how this works / more detail here. If you're up in 6th or 7th and want to drop it to 3rd for a pass, can you just hit the down paddle 3 times and will it jump straight down to 3rd? Or does it go down sequentially? Presumably if you put it back into "auto" mode and then mash the throttle it is smart enough to skip gears going down at least?
In that particular case, I honestly don't know if it goes through each gear sequentially, or just "jumps". It happens fast enough that I don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
And the scenario you explicitly mentioned, I assume that's while braking for a turn and you hit (-) a couple times, it will blip and go down, and then as revs drop to a point where another downshift wouldn't over-rev, it will blip and go down a second time? Is there any magic trick like "hold the (-) paddle for a second or more to get the lowest gear possible at this time"?
That's exactly what it does: E.g., I'm well up into 5th at the end of a straight, and I want to be in 3rd when I'm done braking. I mash the whoa pedal, and yank the "down" paddle twice. As I'm decelerating, I'll hear the engine go "Wabbo! Wabbo!", and I'll be in 3rd at the turn-in point.

Yes, it also has the parlor trick of getting into the best gear for acceleration: The gas pedal gets a little stiff when it's near the floor. It feels like the kick-down point in an old-school automatic. Push the gas past that point, pull the downshift paddle, and it'll find the optimum gear for acceleration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZPrime View Post
My previous car was a VAG DSG box, note that this is not the standard behavior on most of their transmissions. I believe some of the RS cars with S-tronic/dual clutch boxes may not auto-upshift, but all of the other DSG cars do (unless you've flashed the software on the transmission to override it).

Like the OP, I'm having a very hard time making up my mind between the two options... I think I need to get some seat time in both, which is nearly impossible around here. (I hopefully can try an M3 or M4 in DCT; they'll have more power but I believe the transmission is the same?)

It sucks that DCT is another ~$3k too. That would pay for winter wheels/tires pretty easily... It also sucks that both my brother and my father will give me shit and whine if I don't get a 6MT. I appreciate both for their own reasons... in a turbo car my gut instinct is to go DCT so boost is maintained during shifts, but the car nerd in me likes the idea of 6MT. My current car is 6MT and I'm not a big fan, but I think most of that is because this specific 6MT is "meh" at best. But that is coloring my vision now, which is why I really need to get behind the wheel of a BMW 6MT.

Yeah, the price is my single biggest objection to DCT. My son was giving me endless grief about getting it vs. the manual. Until he drove it.
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      04-13-2017, 04:14 PM   #61
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Does it really shift to the lowest possible gear if you hold the paddle?!? Interesting. I probably wont try this, but interesting.
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      04-13-2017, 04:23 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by garrito_burrito_ View Post
Does it really shift to the lowest possible gear if you hold the paddle?!? Interesting. I probably wont try this, but interesting.
Porsche PDK also does this, you brake holding the paddle and it drops gears so when you finish braking you're in the perfect rev range for further acceleration or maintaining speed through a corner.
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      04-13-2017, 07:32 PM   #63
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I'm very happy with the DCT box. Having owned 2 other DSG (VW product) cars I would say BMW dual clutch and possibly Porsche are the only two I'd consider.

The DCT on my M2 is super smooth and easy when I want it to be, and it gets aggressive / bangs off gears when you want. It's a different driving experience. This car carves up mountain roads very well so it's fun to just focus on braking / placement with quick flawless shifts.

It's a great box. Remember worst case scenario you probably can dump the car pretty easy if you want to switch to manual.

Disclaimer: I also have another manual car that still scratches the itch. If I had to have one car, it would be a tough choice for the transmission.
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      04-14-2017, 04:39 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajvdh View Post
Yes, it also has the parlor trick of getting into the best gear for acceleration: The gas pedal gets a little stiff when it's near the floor. It feels like the kick-down point in an old-school automatic. Push the gas past that point, pull the downshift paddle, and it'll find the optimum gear for acceleration.
Interesting. the VAG boxes have the kick-down button at the bottom of the pedal, but they will kick-down to the lowest "sane" gear when you touch that and that alone, without doing anything with the paddles. So if you want to hit VMAX ASAP on a VW/Audi, you can just mat the long pedal no matter what mode the gearbox is in.

It has its plusses and minuses. Makes it hard to hit 100% throttle without hitting the kick-down portion, but again, their default behavior is also to upshift at redline unless you've got specific RS models or have flashed the transmission. On the flip side, it's the only way to get the box to skip a bunch of gears and go 6->3 or 5->2, so removing the kickdown switch (can be done with aforementioned transmission software flashes so it is ignored) is kind of a downer as well. I like BMW's thinking here - driver must indicate they want max accel by matting throttle and signaling for a downshift. Then again, they're also one of the few car companies that understands that + should be a pull and - should be a push... VAG boxes (and most of the damn Porsche sticks, for that matter) are stupidly reversed. Mazda is the only other company I know of that does it correctly (like BMW).

This is the kind of useful information that a sales wanker will never know about, and not the kind of thing you think to test during a drive with the sales wanker in the passenger seat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fjork_duf View Post
I'm very happy with the DCT box. Having owned 2 other DSG (VW product) cars I would say BMW dual clutch and possibly Porsche are the only two I'd consider.

The DCT on my M2 is super smooth and easy when I want it to be, and it gets aggressive / bangs off gears when you want. It's a different driving experience. This car carves up mountain roads very well so it's fun to just focus on braking / placement with quick flawless shifts.

It's a great box. Remember worst case scenario you probably can dump the car pretty easy if you want to switch to manual.

Disclaimer: I also have another manual car that still scratches the itch. If I had to have one car, it would be a tough choice for the transmission.
Yeah, I only get one car... which is also what makes it very hard for me. The dual-clutch stuff is so nice in both boring highway commuting and on track days... but occasionally I want to row gears.

I know that the first time I drove a dualclutch box (VW DSG in a MkV R32), my wife said I had a shit-eating grin on my face the whole time... I know I felt like a rally driver banging through gears with paddles.
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      04-14-2017, 05:43 PM   #65
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Having owned both, both have their good points and bad points. The best performance is with the DCT. Even beyond the published data, it is simply easier to access the capabilities of the car consistently and with very little effort/planning. Blowing a shift is something you have to work at the the DCT. Problem I have is that it's almost too good and I enjoy the inconsistency of my wrangling the 6MT. I can focus and get after the 6MT gear box and wring out the power but most of the time I'm slow to hit the right gear and no one can compete with the shift speed of the DCT. I still prefer the 6MT and the connection with the car. Modern cars have layers of controls and nannies and the DCT is another layer to be added. Part of my love of the M2 is it's "simple" and the 6MT seems appropriate and helps with the connection to a beautiful machine. Reality is getting into a 1971 BMW 2002 is closer to riding a horse than a modern car like the M2. Simple cannot exist anymore and for good reasons.
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      04-14-2017, 08:20 PM   #66
akkando
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Drives: 17 M2 DCT LBB,11 e90 M3 ZCP IB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benef1cient View Post
Porsche PDK also does this, you brake holding the paddle and it drops gears so when you finish braking you're in the perfect rev range for further acceleration or maintaining speed through a corner.
I don't believe it will drop to the lowest safe gear though if you're just cruising and then hold the paddle. I tested that last night.
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