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      02-21-2017, 12:53 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Pyrat, Any sense of what happens to toe when camber is changed?

I'm looking at GC/TC/Vorshlag plates, and wondering if the toe change between street/track camber settings, say 1.5 to 3, is acceptable or wicked awful. That's really going to drive whether an easily adjustable camber plate is of any value to me.

Looking at a 8 hour drive to VIR, and not looking to tear up street tires on the way there and back

Thanks for any insight,
rjn
When you add negative camber, you also add toe-out.

You don't have to fret about tire wear to and from the track if you zero the toe when you crank up negative camber.

I've been running -3.5deg camber full time for a couple years with zero toe. I drive around 7k street miles per year, mostly surface streets, and see fairly even wear across the fronts. I benefit from having a square setup, so I can rotate front-to-back.

On camber plates' adjustability: TCKline are not adjustable on the car; GC and Dinan are, though. K-MACs are very difficult to adjust without alignment equipment, so I recommend saving that for the shop lest you screw up your caster (which can make the car feel quite funny).
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      02-22-2017, 06:45 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
When you add negative camber, you also add toe-out.

You don't have to fret about tire wear to and from the track if you zero the toe when you crank up negative camber.

I've been running -3.5deg camber full time for a couple years with zero toe. I drive around 7k street miles per year, mostly surface streets, and see fairly even wear across the fronts. I benefit from having a square setup, so I can rotate front-to-back.

On camber plates' adjustability: TCKline are not adjustable on the car; GC and Dinan are, though. K-MACs are very difficult to adjust without alignment equipment, so I recommend saving that for the shop lest you screw up your caster (which can make the car feel quite funny).
Thanks for the input. Use that guideline for my track focused (but still street legal) E36 even at -4 degrees, but it's got fixed plates. didn't know about the F87. It's been a long time since taking anything this new to a track

Did talk with Jay at Ground Control yesterday, and learned a little more, specifically that the toe change with camber is very similar to a '95 M3 (which is friendlier than 96+), so may go with 0 toe at -3 degrees and leave it be, and still have some workable options to go a little more or less to get even wear at the track.
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      02-23-2017, 09:16 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rwalker View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Pyrat, Any sense of what happens to toe when camber is changed?

I'm looking at GC/TC/Vorshlag plates, and wondering if the toe change between street/track camber settings, say 1.5 to 3, is acceptable or wicked awful. That's really going to drive whether an easily adjustable camber plate is of any value to me.

Looking at a 8 hour drive to VIR, and not looking to tear up street tires on the way there and back

Thanks for any insight,
rjn
When you add negative camber, you also add toe-out.

You don't have to fret about tire wear to and from the track if you zero the toe when you crank up negative camber.

I've been running -3.5deg camber full time for a couple years with zero toe. I drive around 7k street miles per year, mostly surface streets, and see fairly even wear across the fronts. I benefit from having a square setup, so I can rotate front-to-back.

On camber plates' adjustability: TCKline are not adjustable on the car; GC and Dinan are, though. K-MACs are very difficult to adjust without alignment equipment, so I recommend saving that for the shop lest you screw up your caster (which can make the car feel quite funny).
A little confused here. I'm running TCKlines and they are definitely adjustable on the car. Jack the car up, remove the 4 set screws, tap to the new position (use a short roofing nail to line up the hole), reinsert the screws. They don't have the small adjustability that other brands offer but in exchange the settings are exactly repeatable.
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      02-27-2017, 12:53 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pyrat 2 View Post
A little confused here. I'm running TCKlines and they are definitely adjustable on the car. Jack the car up, remove the 4 set screws, tap to the new position (use a short roofing nail to line up the hole), reinsert the screws. They don't have the small adjustability that other brands offer but in exchange the settings are exactly repeatable.
I'm frankly surprised you were able to line up the holes, I was not. Good job to you.

The issue I had: you have to be precise in having the holes lined up, and you have to have the slider perfectly square with the top plate. The buckling spring causes the slider to tilt with respect to the top plate, making it very, very difficult to achieve this squareness. This is especially true for higher camber adjustment levels.
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      03-04-2017, 02:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Review cars are prepped with " M performance pads" , available at additional cost from your dealer. At the very least you should instead put your $600 towards those. The stock rotors are ok.
In your opinion, would the M Performance Pads be too noisy/annoying for street use? Are they as loud as other after-market track pads?

Would there be any other downsides to running them on both street and track?
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      03-06-2017, 10:55 AM   #50
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My local track is a small 1.3 mile road course with crappy pavement. It's not great but it's ok and well laid out. Doing that once or twice a year at the most and a couple auto cross events would you still recommend changing pads and fluid? I know most of the answers above in this scenario are yes for sure you still need pads and fluid but I wanted to double check as my track is quite small.

Again same question regarding camber. i know the front is not adjustable without plates... I remember back when I tracked my STI before I adjusted the camber it beat up on the front right tire pretty good. is the camber on the M2 better suited stock or will it be pretty much the same story without an adjustment?
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      03-08-2017, 01:15 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by IS+1 View Post
In your opinion, would the M Performance Pads be too noisy/annoying for street use? Are they as loud as other after-market track pads?

Would there be any other downsides to running them on both street and track?
They squeal like a pig in heat.
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      03-08-2017, 09:10 PM   #52
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As for track use, after a seatbelt, brakes are the single most important safety item. Don't take a chance. It's not worth it. Drive slow on the track or get better pads.
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      03-09-2017, 12:27 AM   #53
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Great discussion. I decided to get the RS29 pads. Heading to the track this weekend!
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      03-09-2017, 06:59 AM   #54
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Great discussion. I decided to get the RS29 pads. Heading to the track this weekend!
Don't forget to flush the system and add high temp fluid.👌🏼
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      03-10-2017, 11:18 AM   #55
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My local track is a small 1.3 mile road course with crappy pavement. It's not great but it's ok and well laid out. Doing that once or twice a year at the most and a couple auto cross events would you still recommend changing pads and fluid? I know most of the answers above in this scenario are yes for sure you still need pads and fluid but I wanted to double check as my track is quite small.

Again same question regarding camber. i know the front is not adjustable without plates... I remember back when I tracked my STI before I adjusted the camber it beat up on the front right tire pretty good. is the camber on the M2 better suited stock or will it be pretty much the same story without an adjustment?
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      03-13-2017, 01:56 PM   #56
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So I just did Laguna Seca on these pads, and they were great! More than enough braking. Out of everything on the car, it had A LOT of braking. A few notes.

1) As mentioned the RSL29 clank when parking, moving in and out of the pits, going from reverse to drive. Makes "race car," noises. Kinda alarms you at first in a brand new car.

2) I didn't experience any fade. These are endurance pads meant for 3/6/24 hours? I imagine fade can happen with stock fluid, but I didn't change out the fluid. No boiling. Was fine. 70 degree perfect day. 20 min sessions.

3) I only beat my e36 m3 track car time by 1.5 seconds. Best time 1:49.2 I guess that's pretty good for an out of the box m2. Professional drivers are doing 1:40??? Holy shit on a stock m2? I think we need to not change any more parts and just learn how to drive faster!

Having said that, front tires and camber are totally fine and more than suitable for a simple day at the track, but did feel limiting, if you've experienced better. Pressures in the front tires hot were getting up to around 38-40psi. I was noticing a little rollover as well. I didn't want the pressure any higher, and lowering it would cause even more rollover. I just learned to ease up a little and try to not enter too hot and just acknowledge the front limiting grip.

Since I am a track nut, it's hard to not add camber and get a stickier tire. I feel the stock setup is fine if you want to DD your car and just go out for some fun on the tracks. Also with the pros track times, I plan to just get better using the stock setup. Stickier tires can make up for driver's bad habits and make you faster. But damn some camber and r spec tires would really be fun!

Honestly if you're not a track guy and wondering about the brake pads...just leave them, you'll be fine. If you then go out and feel a ton of fade or that they could be "better," go ahead and change em out for next time! But don't feel like you have to "get in there," and change everything, just go run it!

I think the track people can understand these points and make the call themselves pretty easily.

edit: I just changed my pads back to the stocks and took a look at everything. Pads look like they got pretty hot. So who knows how the stocks would handle that kind of heat. Also the front tires were typical of that "no camber," type of wear. The tread in the middle of the tire was pretty torn up. Even if the pros can squeeze fast times out of the stock setup, that doesn't mean it's going to hold up or look pretty when you're done. And probably isn't a "long term," track solution.

Last edited by Prollig; 03-14-2017 at 12:35 AM..
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      03-23-2017, 01:08 PM   #57
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Shamless plug but I'm selling a 80%+ material set of Pagid RSL1 track pads for F8x. Ran them for 2 short days on my M2, tons of life left. Asking less than half price of new, $330 shipped. These are the top of the line Pagid offering.
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      03-25-2017, 02:30 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prollig View Post
So I just did Laguna Seca on these pads, and they were great! More than enough braking. Out of everything on the car, it had A LOT of braking. A few notes.

... Pressures in the front tires hot were getting up to around 38-40psi. I was noticing a little rollover as well. I didn't want the pressure any higher, and lowering it would cause even more rollover. I just learned to ease up a little and try to not enter too hot and just acknowledge the front limiting grip....
Thanks for the post.
What pressure did you start with to end up with 38-40?
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      03-28-2017, 01:52 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rjn View Post
Thanks for the post.
What pressure did you start with to end up with 38-40?
It would Build up throughout the day as ambient and track temps went up. When I got home and checked my tires completely cold in the garage they were something like 25F 29R. But if you set them like that first run out they will probably be too low.

If you go too low the TPMS light will come on and you have to start the reset phase as well.

Initially I just did something like 29F 31R cold...came in and bled them while they're Hot as soon as I got to the paddock.
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      04-10-2017, 02:13 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prollig View Post
It would Build up throughout the day as ambient and track temps went up. When I got home and checked my tires completely cold in the garage they were something like 25F 29R. But if you set them like that first run out they will probably be too low.

If you go too low the TPMS light will come on and you have to start the reset phase as well.

Initially I just did something like 29F 31R cold...came in and bled them while they're Hot as soon as I got to the paddock.
Everyone seems to be going back and forth about the stock pads. In your other post you say they would be fine to try and see but then in the edited comments you mention they got pretty hot.

Would you say in your opinion that the stock pads are still a 1-2 day a year track worthy pad?

Does anyone know what the stock fluid is rated for temp wise? is it 600f? better?

I'm really trying to not have to change pads and fluid to go once or twice but will if I have to or am risking wrecking the stock components.
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      04-10-2017, 02:26 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quikM2 View Post
Everyone seems to be going back and forth about the stock pads. In your other post you say they would be fine to try and see but then in the edited comments you mention they got pretty hot.

Would you say in your opinion that the stock pads are still a 1-2 day a year track worthy pad?

Does anyone know what the stock fluid is rated for temp wise? is it 600f? better?

I'm really trying to not have to change pads and fluid to go once or twice but will if I have to or am risking wrecking the stock components.
Stock ok if you are a beginner and not pushing the car hard at all. If you are a faster intermediate or advanced driver you will destroy your stock pads and boil the fluid in no time. It takes 30 mins to change pads (most of the time is taking the wheels off), just use the right equipment and don't be lazy.
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      04-10-2017, 04:01 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Stock ok if you are a beginner and not pushing the car hard at all. If you are a faster intermediate or advanced driver you will destroy your stock pads and boil the fluid in no time. It takes 30 mins to change pads (most of the time is taking the wheels off), just use the right equipment and don't be lazy.
Stock brake pads on track is never ok...
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      04-12-2017, 06:52 PM   #63
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I am a beginner with only 5 track days under my belt but yet I did toast my OEM pads in one day at Laguna Seca. Upgrading to the PFC08 of the next event.
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      04-17-2017, 01:23 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quikM2 View Post
Everyone seems to be going back and forth about the stock pads. In your other post you say they would be fine to try and see but then in the edited comments you mention they got pretty hot.

Would you say in your opinion that the stock pads are still a 1-2 day a year track worthy pad?

Does anyone know what the stock fluid is rated for temp wise? is it 600f? better?

I'm really trying to not have to change pads and fluid to go once or twice but will if I have to or am risking wrecking the stock components.
You're not gonna wreck anything. It's ready to go out of the box.

Don't worry about the fluid.
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      04-17-2017, 04:53 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prollig View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by quikM2 View Post
Everyone seems to be going back and forth about the stock pads. In your other post you say they would be fine to try and see but then in the edited comments you mention they got pretty hot.

Would you say in your opinion that the stock pads are still a 1-2 day a year track worthy pad?

Does anyone know what the stock fluid is rated for temp wise? is it 600f? better?

I'm really trying to not have to change pads and fluid to go once or twice but will if I have to or am risking wrecking the stock components.
You're not gonna wreck anything. It's ready to go out of the box.

Don't worry about the fluid.
This is terrible advice. Don't use the stock pads on track unless you are a beginner going slow.
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      04-26-2017, 02:26 PM   #66
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For a complete beginner though, say going on their 1st or 2nd track day, who isn't going to push the car anywhere near as much as more experienced guys, are stock pads ok?
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