[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I've no idea .. haven't really been following the X models. Personally .. I would be surprised to see an S58 developed for the SAV line first and then handed down to the next M3 and M4 .. but it could certainly go that way.

The S63 was first launched in the X5/6M

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by CanAutM3

The S63 was first launched in the X5/6M

yep.. that I am indeed aware of..... but the M5 and M6 don't have the rabid following that the M3 and M4 have...... and sales of those is SHRINKING compared to the X5/X6.. So in that case indeed.. it makes sense to debut the motor for the bread and butter models in the lineup.

Of course the same could potentially be said for the X3 and X4 vs the sedan variants of the 3 and 4 series in the future... dunno.. perhaps BMW sees those as being the bread and butter in the lineup ... however.. I would think that BMW would want to being the SIZZLE to the market around the M3 and M4 ....

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/19/g0...nching-months/

looks like the X3 M40i will be a B58 variant... with a B48 model lower...if they begin with an S58 for the X3M that begins in 2019... that means the GXX M3 and M4 would get a motor that is around 2-4 years old by the time they hit the market in the 2020s...

[M3 Number 86]

Originally Posted by F87LUV

Oh thank you. I have some more things planned.

the black looks so good. my black looks like fucking plastidip

[louielouie]

I actually don't like the way the S55 sounds.

Can't wait to pick up a used N55 one on the cheap if the price drops.

[Em/1]

Originally Posted by medphysdave

This idiot has a #1 slot. Money down since March 2016 😀

Not at my dealership; you just have to be first. They do vary a LOT in their handling of customers. Here in Chicagoland, we have one of the worst and several of the best.

[CanAutM3]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

yep.. that I am indeed aware of..... but the M5 and M6 don't have the rabid following that the M3 and M4 have...... and sales of those is SHRINKING compared to the X5/X6.. So in that case indeed.. it makes sense to debut the motor for the bread and butter models in the lineup.

Of course the same could potentially be said for the X3 and X4 vs the sedan variants of the 3 and 4 series in the future... dunno.. perhaps BMW sees those as being the bread and butter in the lineup ... however.. I would think that BMW would want to being the SIZZLE to the market around the M3 and M4 ....

http://www.bmwblog.com/2016/03/19/g0...nching-months/

looks like the X3 M40i will be a B58 variant... with a B48 model lower...if they begin with an S58 for the X3M that begins in 2019... that means the GXX M3 and M4 would get a motor that is around 2-4 years old by the time they hit the market in the 2020s...

S58Tü

[dmboone25]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

That's the way my magic 8 ball reads ..

That would be quite the car.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

The following is as precise and explicit as I can be on this subject:
All of the 40+ production spec M2 CS built by now are DCT.

In the CAR+ interview with BMW M about the M2 and M4 GTS (December 2015) the interviewer mentioned that manuals were expected to represent ± 40% of the M2 sales (source: here):

You'll be giving engine orders through either a six-speed manual, or, unlike the 1M, an optional dual-clutch gearbox; the latter likely to take 60% of sales.

In an interview with Digital Trends (January 2017) BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel disclosed that manuals represent ± 20% of the M2 sales, which he considers to be "a lot" (source: here):

Q: Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions ? How long term do you think that will remain an option ?
A: Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption. So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes. We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Having followed this M2 section right from the early stage, I got the impression that the vast majority of M2 cars spec'ed by BMW dealers are M-DCT (to be distinguished from M2 cars spec'ed by customers). Prior to the official delivery date (April 16, 2016), many dealers ordered so-called "HEA cars" ("Handler-Erst-Ausstattung" = first edition for dealers = dealer demo cars), which fairly quickly ended up in customers' hands, who took what was available. IIRC a lot of forum members who got a HEA M2 and who had not been involved in the ordering process, drive an M-DCT.

IMHO, though it may sound like a paradox, it's more accurate to say that M-DCT 'supply' is strong, rather than that 6MT 'demand' is poor. Most dealers spec'ing M-DCT, is a catalyst for the self-fulfilling prophecy that 'demand for manuals has decreased'. Would be interesting to know the take-rate for manuals of customer-spec'ed M2 cars. I believe it to be higher than the one of dealer-spec'ed M2 cars, leveling the global figure of all sales to ± 20%. But I am biased, as, back in October 2015, I spec'ed the manual gearbox for my M2 (even if BMW or my dealer would have offered the M-DCT option for free).

The fact that the BMW 1M (2011), Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015) and Porsche 911R (2016) were manual-only, didn't hurt sales of any of those cars. Also that characteristic got those cars extra accolades amongst car enthusiasts (including virtually all car journalists). And Porsche is smart by offering the manual gearbox of its 911R for its brandnew GT3 as a 'free of charge option': indeed, for its GT3 Porsche charges PDK-money for the manual gearbox (same price). I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line.

Personally I wouldn't mind BMW offering M2 variants M-DCT stock, with the manual gearbox as 'free of charge option' (thus charging M-DCT-money for the manual gearbox), if that would preserve the possibility of getting a manual gearbox.

For sure, Audi, Mercedes and other BMW competitors would welcome the news that M2 variants will be M-DCT only. But IMHO BMW M is smart enough not to let that happen. The manual gearbox: not only for all the automotive fun and aficionados accolades, but also as a unique selling point when compared to several BMW competitors.

In the referenced CAR+ interview BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel mentioned also the following interesting information (source: here):

Q: What is your favourite M car from the past ?
A: The 1-series M. That car definitely needs ESC !
Q: How involved do you get in the development process ?
A: I drive the cars early. Usually the engineers have picked up on the same things, but it's good to have input.

I'm way too insignificant to give Mr. Van Meel some piece of advice. But if I may for a moment: the proof of the pudding is in the eating; go drive an M2 variant prototype with a manual gearbox, with the target public in mind, Sir !

TL;DR ? Summary: there are good reasons for BMW to release an M2 variant with manual gearbox (too).

[filet.M2c]

Originally Posted by ynguldyn

The following is as precise and explicit as I can be on this subject:

All of the 40+ production spec M2 CS built by now are DCT.

Well, that is a major bummer. This will be a deal breaker for me. I am not interested in a DCT. If BMW royally screws this up and only offers DCT then I'll just pick up an M2 (maybe even used if the prices drop) and throw on a dinan turbo, some suspension bits, and some thicker wheels/ tires and call it a day.

[chmura]

To me it wouldn't make sense for the CS to be DCT only. This is suppose to be a raw drivers car that follows the 1M recipe to a certain extent. Plus the development is done already. M4 has a manual, to me it would make no sense at all if the M2 CS did not offered in a manual.

I still strongly believe there will still be an manual offered. If not than I guess I have to pull my deposit and change it to the standard M2. Or get a GT4 since BMW dropped the ball offering their only fun drivers car in a DCT configuration. Seems like a step backwards for the purpose of the car.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the CAR+ interview with BMW M about the M2 and M4 GTS (December 2015) the interviewer mentioned that manuals were expected to represent ± 40% of the M2 sales (source: here):

You'll be giving engine orders through either a six-speed manual, or, unlike the 1M, an optional dual-clutch gearbox; the latter likely to take 60% of sales.

In an interview with Digital Trends (January 2017) BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel disclosed that manuals represent ± 20% of the M2 sales, which he considers to be "a lot" (source: here):

Q: Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions ? How long term do you think that will remain an option ?
A: Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption. So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes. We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Having followed this M2 section right from the early stage, I got the impression that the vast majority of M2 cars spec'ed by BMW dealers are M-DCT (to be distinguished from M2 cars spec'ed by customers). Prior to the official delivery date (April 16, 2016), many dealers ordered so-called "HEA cars" ("Handler-Erst-Ausstattung" = first edition for dealers = dealer demo cars), which fairly quickly ended up in customers' hands, who took what was available. IIRC a lot of forum members who got a HEA M2 and who had not been involved in the ordering process, drive an M-DCT.

IMHO, though it may sound like a paradox, it's more accurate to say that M-DCT 'supply' is strong, rather than that 6MT 'demand' is poor. Most dealers spec'ing M-DCT, is a catalyst for the self-fulfilling prophecy that 'demand for manuals has decreased'. Would be interesting to know the take-rate for manuals of customer-spec'ed M2 cars. I believe it to be higher than the one of dealer-spec'ed M2 cars, leveling the global figure of all sales to ± 20%. But I am biased, as, back in October 2015, I spec'ed the manual gearbox for my M2 (even if BMW or my dealer would have offered the M-DCT option for free).

The fact that the BMW 1M (2011), Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015) and Porsche 911R (2016) were manual-only, didn't hurt sales of any of those cars. Also that characteristic got those cars extra accolades amongst car enthusiasts (including virtually all car journalists). And Porsche is smart by offering the manual gearbox of its 911R for its brandnew GT3 as a 'free of charge option': indeed, for its GT3 Porsche charges PDK-money for the manual gearbox (same price). I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line.

Personally I wouldn't mind BMW offering M2 variants M-DCT stock, with the manual gearbox as 'free of charge option' (thus charging M-DCT-money for the manual gearbox), if that would preserve the possibility of getting a manual gearbox.

For sure, Audi, Mercedes and other BMW competitors would welcome the news that M2 variants will be M-DCT only. But IMHO BMW M is smart enough not to let that happen. The manual gearbox: not only for all the automotive fun and aficionados accolades, but also as a unique selling point when compared to several BMW competitors.

In the referenced CAR+ interview BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel mentioned also the following interesting information (source: here):

Q: What is your favourite M car from the past ?
A: The 1-series M. That car definitely needs ESC !
Q: How involved do you get in the development process ?
A: I drive the cars early. Usually the engineers have picked up on the same things, but it's good to have input.

I'm way too insignificant to give Mr. Van Meel some piece of advice. But if I may for a moment: the proof of the pudding is in the eating; go drive an M2 variant prototype with a manual gearbox, with the target public in mind, Sir !

TL;DR ? Summary: there are good reasons for BMW to release an M2 variant with manual gearbox (too).

Attachment 1605122

You Better watch out with all these theories... someone like m34m will start calling you scully.


Mulder

[Gatte]

There's still hope. Production is scheduled for 03/17. There's a few more months to test a manual version of the car as well.

That rumor about someone seeing this car with a manual transmission appears to have been just that... A rumor.

[Robin_NL]

I'd love to see a low priced(....) CS 6MT where I live.


I'm first on my dealer's list for a CS, for already 4/5 months lol....

BUT if I'm still going for it, that's the question.
And that's not because probably no 6MT.

If it has the 8AT like an M240i and it's exciting and fast and thrilling and whatever I'm sold. I'ts the pricetag and what's new/different vs my 'old' M2.

M2 Cs needs to be faster(marketingwise) on track than our M2 and also be faster than the (already very fast) competition. A 6MT would be a no go then I guess. No sarcasm.

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by chmura

To me it wouldn't make sense for the CS to be DCT only. This is suppose to be a raw drivers car that follows the 1M recipe to a certain extent. Plus the development is done already. M4 has a manual, to me it would make no sense at all if the M2 CS did not offered in a manual.

I still strongly believe there will still be an manual offered. If not than I guess I have to pull my deposit and change it to the standard M2. Or get a GT4 since BMW dropped the ball offering their only fun drivers car in a DCT configuration. Seems like a step backwards for the purpose of the car.

The purpose of the car means also beating the competition. The purpose of the car also means put all the nannies off and do some drifting or trackdays. At least that's what I did with E46 M3/E90 M3/ 1M all MT.

After one trackday and one driftday last sunday I don't see the DCT interfering with the fun part/purpose of the car: Au contraire, it ADDS to the excitement. Imho.

I love my car more now than before Sunday Driftday Germany. And the DCT is more to be blamed for that happiness.

Cheers
Robin

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Artemis

In the CAR+ interview with BMW M about the M2 and M4 GTS (December 2015) the interviewer mentioned that manuals were expected to represent ± 40% of the M2 sales (source: here):

You'll be giving engine orders through either a six-speed manual, or, unlike the 1M, an optional dual-clutch gearbox; the latter likely to take 60% of sales.

In an interview with Digital Trends (January 2017) BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel disclosed that manuals represent ± 20% of the M2 sales, which he considers to be "a lot" (source: here):

Q: Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions ? How long term do you think that will remain an option ?
A: Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption. So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes. We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Having followed this M2 section right from the early stage, I got the impression that the vast majority of M2 cars spec'ed by BMW dealers are M-DCT (to be distinguished from M2 cars spec'ed by customers). Prior to the official delivery date (April 16, 2016), many dealers ordered so-called "HEA cars" ("Handler-Erst-Ausstattung" = first edition for dealers = dealer demo cars), which fairly quickly ended up in customers' hands, who took what was available. IIRC a lot of forum members who got a HEA M2 and who had not been involved in the ordering process, drive an M-DCT.

IMHO, though it may sound like a paradox, it's more accurate to say that M-DCT 'supply' is strong, rather than that 6MT 'demand' is poor. Most dealers spec'ing M-DCT, is a catalyst for the self-fulfilling prophecy that 'demand for manuals has decreased'. Would be interesting to know the take-rate for manuals of customer-spec'ed M2 cars. I believe it to be higher than the one of dealer-spec'ed M2 cars, leveling the global figure of all sales to ± 20%. But I am biased, as, back in October 2015, I spec'ed the manual gearbox for my M2 (even if BMW or my dealer would have offered the M-DCT option for free).

The fact that the BMW 1M (2011), Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015) and Porsche 911R (2016) were manual-only, didn't hurt sales of any of those cars. Also that characteristic got those cars extra accolades amongst car enthusiasts (including virtually all car journalists). And Porsche is smart by offering the manual gearbox of its 911R for its brandnew GT3 as a 'free of charge option': indeed, for its GT3 Porsche charges PDK-money for the manual gearbox (same price). I recall meeting by chance a Porsche Cayman GTS owner in the Alps in the Summer of 2014. European Delivery - brandnew car - manual gearbox. Porsche had told him that his GTS was peculiar, as "only 5%" opted for the manual gearbox (95% PDK). Six months later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS (100% this time, instead of only 5%), including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line.

Personally I wouldn't mind BMW offering M2 variants M-DCT stock, with the manual gearbox as 'free of charge option' (thus charging M-DCT-money for the manual gearbox), if that would preserve the possibility of getting a manual gearbox.

For sure, Audi, Mercedes and other BMW competitors would welcome the news that M2 variants will be M-DCT only. But IMHO BMW M is smart enough not to let that happen. The manual gearbox: not only for all the automotive fun and aficionados accolades, but also as a unique selling point when compared to several BMW competitors.

In the referenced CAR+ interview BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel mentioned also the following interesting information (source: here):

Q: What is your favourite M car from the past ?
A: The 1-series M. That car definitely needs ESC !
Q: How involved do you get in the development process ?
A: I drive the cars early. Usually the engineers have picked up on the same things, but it's good to have input.

I'm way too insignificant to give Mr. Van Meel some piece of advice. But if I may for a moment: the proof of the pudding is in the eating; go drive an M2 variant prototype with a manual gearbox, with the target public in mind, Sir !

TL;DR ? Summary: there are good reasons for BMW to release an M2 variant with manual gearbox (too).

Attachment 1605122

Good one.

There was a poll on the Rennlist forum on the transmission choice of 6MT vs PDK and the 6MT came out on top with more than 60% going for the 6MT. The poll results surprised many and including Porsche marketing, I suspected.

https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...al-or-pdk.html

While DCT people has the potential to be faster on a track but what about driving enjoyment? With a 6MT the enjoyment is there 24/7 and not just at track days.

These days with performance times so similar between comparable cars the easiest way to set apart from your competitor would be through the inclusion of older technologies like 6MT, hydraulic steering to create the a more emotional experience for the driver.

Porsche has carved up a niche market very nicely with the offer of a 6MT option on their track ready GT car and I believe BMW will follow suit and not abandon this 'easy money on the table' market segment.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by Gatte

That rumor about someone seeing this car with a manual transmission appears to have been just that... A rumor.

What has been seen cannot be unseen: an M2 test mule with the latest 'Bane'-style front camouflage featuring a manual gearbox and digital speedometer. The one who reported early this year on the German forum 2erTalk having personally seen it parked inside the BMW M HQ this Winter is usually well-informed and noted "to my surprise it was a manual"("Überraschenderweise war es ein Handschalter").

Let's wait and see what makes it to the final cut.

[slashrawr]

Originally Posted by chmura

This is suppose to be a raw drivers car that follows the 1M recipe to a certain extent.

Where did you hear that? As far as I figure it's simply supposed to be faster...and that makes DCT is a prerequisite. I mean put it this way, theoretically you could have a vanilla DCT M2 quicker than a manual CS, which would defeat the purpose of having a CS to begin with. :

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by slashrawr

Where did you hear that? As far as I figure it's simply supposed to be faster...and that makes DCT is a prerequisite. I mean put it this way, theoretically you could have a vanilla DCT M2 quicker than a manual CS, which would defeat the purpose of having a CS to begin with. :

Exactly....

Rest +1

Cheers
Robin

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Karmic Man

-or-pdk.html[/url]

While DCT people has the potential to be faster on a track but what about driving enjoyment? With a 6MT the enjoyment is there 24/7 and not just at track days.

Having had a 1M(great car!!!!) I never missed the MT one second, I swear to God....

I sometimes miss the explosiveness of the N54 though....

I never missed the hydraulic steering either.

I'm not a purist, I'm an enthusiastic driver

Cheers
Robin

[Isty]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

Having had a 1M(great car!!!!) I never missed the MT one second, I swear to God....

I sometimes miss the explosiveness of the N54 though....

I never missed the hydraulic steering either.

I'm not a purist, I'm an enthusiastic driver

Cheers
Robin

I'm with you. I will not miss the heavy steering of my m3 e46.

I also dont care if the m2 has some fake sound, because it
sounded amazing to me when I first drove it.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by Isty

I'm with you. I will not miss the heavy steering of my m3 e46.

I also dont care if the m2 has some fake sound, because it
sounded amazing to me when I first drove it.

I put ASD off, no fake sound anymore

M3 E46 was a great car I had one in '02/03 6MT.

Cheers
Robin

[Isty]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

I put ASD off, no fake sound anymore

M3 E46 was a great car I had one in '02/03 6MT.

Cheers
Robin

I hope I will get bored with the ASD, but I did like
it quiet alot!

I'm pretty sure that the 335d f30 has ASD aswell
because they sound awesome from the inside while
they sound like a diesel on the outside.