[MrKepan]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

Never, ever, ever, shift into neutral and coast like that. This is extremely dangerous if you get in an accident as the car will keep moving out of control and since it's in neutral, the engine won't stall and stop the car. You'd fail a driving test pretty much anywhere in the world doing this. It's not bad for the car mind you, but bad for your safety.

Now, to answer your question, there's a couple of different ways you could go about it:

- In 5th, hit the brakes and slow down, rev-match down shift into 2nd and make the turn. The car won't stall, but if it comes close, you will certainly notice the jitters and then just shift into 4 or 3.

- In 5th, hit the brakes and down shift in sequence 5-4-3-2 and make the turn.

- Anywhere between those two - for example, maybe shift 5-4 and then continue braking and shift into 2 and make turn.

One key thing to remember is that brakes are cheaper than a clutch. With newer cars like the M2, engine braking is not nearly as effective as in older cars as the software prevents engine braking under certain load conditions. So as a rule of thumb, for newer cars, always use the brakes rather than engine to slow down - it'll save you money in the long run because pads are much much much cheaper than clutch and engine repairs.

correct. that's racecar driving 101. the following needs to be down BEFORE the turn:

Down shift to the correct gear depending on the speed in the curve, you can skip gear.
Brake to the correct speed that you can carry in the curve.

try not to shift or brake when the steering is turned. But this is basic. There's advanced skill, that you can trail brake or accelerate to exit. But try not to shift during the turn.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by gmzanatta

With newer cars like the M2, engine braking is not nearly as effective as in older cars as the software prevents engine braking under certain load conditions.

Can you explain why this is? Is it an emissions related thing?

I absolutely hate the lack of engine braking in my M2. Engine braking and exhaust sound are the only two things I really miss about my old 370Z.

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Can you explain why this is? Is it an emissions related thing?

I absolutely hate the lack of engine braking in my M2. Engine braking and exhaust sound are the only two things I really miss about my old 370Z.

Engine braking is primarily caused because the throttle is closed and the Engine is trying to suck air in to pump out, but it can't because the throttle valve is closed.

In older cars, the valve opening and closing was fixed, and the fueling was determined by a carburettor which mechanically determined the fuel based on the vacuum in the intake, and the ignition was mechanical.

Over time, each of these has become controllable, and I think I read somewhere that the M2 throttle is not controlled with a traditional throttle body with a butterfly valve, rather the throttle is adjusted by the amount the intake valves open. In addition, the fuelling and ignition are also controlled by a computer.

If that is the case, when you take your foot off the gas, the ignition can be switched off, the fuel can be switched off and the intake valves and / or exhaust can be controlled to prevent loosing speed, which will of course increase economy.

If your 370Z had good engine braking, I'd assume (since it's not that old) that although the fuel and ignition could be disabled, the valves could not be controlled, so you still had the same amount of engine braking as an older vehicle.

[cookiesowns]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Can you explain why this is? Is it an emissions related thing?

I absolutely hate the lack of engine braking in my M2. Engine braking and exhaust sound are the only two things I really miss about my old 370Z.

In Sport or Sport+ the engine braking is still there, especially if you're light on the brakes at higher revs.

[geogerf]

Originally Posted by MrKepan

I think that what most people do. and I think everybody does the "wiggle" thing to make sure it's in neutral.

Def do the wiggle.

[gmzanatta]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Can you explain why this is? Is it an emissions related thing?

I absolutely hate the lack of engine braking in my M2. Engine braking and exhaust sound are the only two things I really miss about my old 370Z.

It's a few things. Nezil addresses some of them on his post, which do directly tie into engine efficiency and emissions.

Another is the fact that current high perf engines (especially the turbocharged ones) have way more torque compared to the older ones, so a missed shift can cause much more damage to the engine because it would get slammed with all this torque.

Another minor one is warranty. Many brands now include much longer warranties than in the past, so if you want to protect what you're warrantying, you have to 'nerf' the car a bit so people like the OP, who has little experience, don't destroy an engine by accident triggering a replacement.

Now, the M2 still does provide some engine braking, and the amount increases as you go from Comfort -> Sport -> Sport+, with Sport+ being the most intense of the bunch, where you can actually feel it.

[DoggieHowser]

I just checked the read out today - in the pre LCI, the middle indent in the temperature bar corresponds to about 90C on the oil temp readout on the M Performance LED display steering wheel. I thought the centre indent was the OK. In any case, I am still running in the car but the MDM mode and the M Performance exhaust is sooo soooo good sounding.

[doug_999]

Wow - I am shocked at the "rules" for downshifting/clutch/etc. I read them and was thinking no way could that be the case (especially the silly UK rules)- but sure enough, a little research and they appear to be correct.

And I guess that's why I hate rev matching so much because, each and every morning, I come up to a slow right hand turn doing about 40mph. I'm normally in 4th, I depress the clutch, start braking, and select 2nd only to hear the engine rev like crazy. I continue to slow down - clutch still depressed, disengage clutch, make the turn and then motor on.

If I am reading this malarkey* correctly, I'm supposed to stay in 4th, brake, then select 2nd just before the turn - right?

*and just referring to it as malarkey as I'm in shock that these are the rules/best practices. I would think that my ability to get out of the way of someone would be severely hampered if I was in 4th gear at 10mph. For instance
http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/changing-gears.html

Talks about staying in 5th until almost at a stop - that sounds terrible from a safety perspective.

[geogerf]

I think the idea is you are supposed to “ignore” what gear you are in and only brake when slowing down (of course having the clutch pedal depressed). Then you put it in gear when you are about to give it gas.

It is the “safest” method, since you are only focusing on braking.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by geogerf

I think the idea is you are supposed to “ignore” what gear you are in and only brake when slowing down (of course having the clutch pedal depressed). Then you put it in gear when you are about to give it gas.

It is the “safest” method, since you are only focusing on braking.

Except if you need to do a maneuver suddenly, then you are in the wrong gear.

and I just noticed, I clutch in before braking - always.

[geogerf]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Except if you need to do a maneuver suddenly, then you are in the wrong gear.

and I just noticed, I clutch in before braking - always.

yeah, i'm just saying the "theory" behind it.

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Wow - I am shocked at the "rules" for downshifting/clutch/etc. I read them and was thinking no way could that be the case (especially the silly UK rules)- but sure enough, a little research and they appear to be correct.

And I guess that's why I hate rev matching so much because, each and every morning, I come up to a slow right hand turn doing about 40mph. I'm normally in 4th, I depress the clutch, start braking, and select 2nd only to hear the engine rev like crazy. I continue to slow down - clutch still depressed, disengage clutch, make the turn and then motor on.

If I am reading this malarkey* correctly, I'm supposed to stay in 4th, brake, then select 2nd just before the turn - right?

*and just referring to it as malarkey as I'm in shock that these are the rules/best practices. I would think that my ability to get out of the way of someone would be severely hampered if I was in 4th gear at 10mph. For instance
http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/changing-gears.html

Talks about staying in 5th until almost at a stop - that sounds terrible from a safety perspective.

One point of clarification: do you stay clutch in (disengaged) as you make your turn in 2nd gear and then let the clutch out as you motor after the turn, or is your foot off the clutch (engaged) by the time you actually turn?

[Nezil]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Wow - I am shocked at the "rules" for downshifting/clutch/etc. I read them and was thinking no way could that be the case (especially the silly UK rules)- but sure enough, a little research and they appear to be correct.

And I guess that's why I hate rev matching so much because, each and every morning, I come up to a slow right hand turn doing about 40mph. I'm normally in 4th, I depress the clutch, start braking, and select 2nd only to hear the engine rev like crazy. I continue to slow down - clutch still depressed, disengage clutch, make the turn and then motor on.

If I am reading this malarkey* correctly, I'm supposed to stay in 4th, brake, then select 2nd just before the turn - right?

*and just referring to it as malarkey as I'm in shock that these are the rules/best practices. I would think that my ability to get out of the way of someone would be severely hampered if I was in 4th gear at 10mph. For instance
http://www.drivingtesttips.biz/changing-gears.html

Talks about staying in 5th until almost at a stop - that sounds terrible from a safety perspective.

So I think you've misinterpreted a few things here...

In an emergency situation, like a child running out in front of you, the idea is that you stop as quickly as possible, the intention then is to make use of engine braking if you can, by staying in gear, even if it's a high gear, until you stop. If you're a good driver, it would probably be best to shift down through the gears to maximise engine braking, but I'd question if in such an emergency you'd a) have enough time to think through what the best coarse of action is, and b) if it would actually be any quicker.

A basic rule though is that you should never be coasting (clutch in, and therefore out of gear), even if you're braking. If you're driving sedately then you could shift down through the gears as you slow down so that you're always in the correct gear to take any action, and if you're driving more aggressively, you might skip gears like 4th to 2nd etc. The chances are that if you're driving more aggressively, you might chose to skip down to second and end up at 4,000 rpm, because you'd rather be in that part of the power band that 2,500rpm in 3rd.

Coasting in neutral or in gear with the clutch depressed isn't a good idea, because the car handles best when it's either braking or accelerating. In neutral it's doing neither of those things. You could argue that you're OK because you're braking, and that's true, but at some point you've got to go back into gear, and this change has the potential to upset the balance of the car, whereas if you did it during the braking phase, that would be less likely to happen.

The UK driving test rules are intended to be a guideline for new drivers, who drive sedately. There are other rules like 'feeding' the steering wheel rather than crossing your arms, which is very slow, but is safe at sedate driving speeds.

If you take advanced driving lessons in the UK, 'feeding' the wheel goes out the window, but that's because it's for advanced drivers, not for learners.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Except if you need to do a maneuver suddenly, then you are in the wrong gear.

and I just noticed, I clutch in before braking - always.

You should only clutch in before/during braking if you're going to make a gearchange or are about to stall with the gear you are in. Declutching just because you're slowing down is simply adding more wear to your clutch and also making the brakes work slightly harder.

In your situation posted earlier, you're coming up to a low speed turn and you know that 4th will be too high of a gear. you should downshift to 2nd before you get to the braking point. The car will rev-match for you (this saves clutch wear, it's good!) and your clutch should be out / re-engaged by the time you are braking.

If you don't need as much power getting out of the turn, you could downshift to 3rd instead of 2nd. Generally, as long as a car is still moving, it won't stall in 3rd at 15-20.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by bruin1md

One point of clarification: do you stay clutch in (disengaged) as you make your turn in 2nd gear and then let the clutch out as you motor after the turn, or is your foot off the clutch (engaged) by the time you actually turn?

Had to actually see what I do - and it is clutch in, through the turn and clutch out during very last part of turn as I straighten). Probably from driving in Chicago winters where the LAST thing you want is the car in gear as you turn.

Originally Posted by Nezil

So I think you've misinterpreted a few things here...

In an emergency situation, like a child running out in front of you, the idea is that you stop as quickly as possible, the intention then is to make use of engine braking if you can, by staying in gear, even if it's a high gear, until you stop. If you're a good driver, it would probably be best to shift down through the gears to maximise engine braking, but I'd question if in such an emergency you'd a) have enough time to think through what the best coarse of action is, and b) if it would actually be any quicker.

A basic rule though is that you should never be coasting (clutch in, and therefore out of gear), even if you're braking. If you're driving sedately then you could shift down through the gears as you slow down so that you're always in the correct gear to take any action, and if you're driving more aggressively, you might skip gears like 4th to 2nd etc. The chances are that if you're driving more aggressively, you might chose to skip down to second and end up at 4,000 rpm, because you'd rather be in that part of the power band that 2,500rpm in 3rd.

Coasting in neutral or in gear with the clutch depressed isn't a good idea, because the car handles best when it's either braking or accelerating. In neutral it's doing neither of those things. You could argue that you're OK because you're braking, and that's true, but at some point you've got to go back into gear, and this change has the potential to upset the balance of the car, whereas if you did it during the braking phase, that would be less likely to happen.

The UK driving test rules are intended to be a guideline for new drivers, who drive sedately. There are other rules like 'feeding' the steering wheel rather than crossing your arms, which is very slow, but is safe at sedate driving speeds.

If you take advanced driving lessons in the UK, 'feeding' the wheel goes out the window, but that's because it's for advanced drivers, not for learners.

Yikes - so many things I disagree with
1. Clutch depressed causes no wear to clutch (throw-out bearings yes)
2. If I were to do an emergency braking maneuver and car was in gear - I'm positive it will jump a bit at the end as the engine stalls - so clutch in braking is (in my argument) faster/shorter - at least with modern cars.
3. "..the car handles best when it's either braking or accelerating" - that's incorrect - the car can turn, stop, or accelerate - and it does each of these best when done independently (especially the stop/accelerate - but you get the idea ). It is a good idea to slightly load up the front prior to a turn and start accelerating out of a turn - but during the turn, you don't want to be doing either of these (unless you have a bunch of 13 year olds in the car telling you to powerslide!)

Originally Posted by ZPrime

You should only clutch in before/during braking if you're going to make a gearchange or are about to stall with the gear you are in. Declutching just because you're slowing down is simply adding more wear to your clutch and also making the brakes work slightly harder.

In your situation posted earlier, you're coming up to a low speed turn and you know that 4th will be too high of a gear. you should downshift to 2nd before you get to the braking point. The car will rev-match for you (this saves clutch wear, it's good!) and your clutch should be out / re-engaged by the time you are braking.

If you don't need as much power getting out of the turn, you could downshift to 3rd instead of 2nd. Generally, as long as a car is still moving, it won't stall in 3rd at 15-20.

The rev match does nothing if the clutch is in - if I were to do the rev match and release the clutch, then fine, but de-clutching does not add any significant wear.

[Hasser]

Originally Posted by M2-007

I never had the proper training on how to drive a stick shift. I bought my first MT car 5 years ago and drove it home after a 10 minutes lesson from the salesman. I remembered stalling the car every few blocks trying to get home, and had to put on the emergency light to stop people from honking me. After the car lease ended I haven't driven a manual since.

Fast forward to today, I will be getting the M2 in 6sp MT. I started watching Youtube on how to drive a stick shift and learned that I shouldn't hold the clutch and put the car in 1st gear while waiting at the traffic light, as this would wear out something in the transmission. Another thing they mentioned is not to skip gear (down shifting). But I used to skip gears all the time. For example, while running in 5th gear on the highway and traffic is slowing down, I would shift to neutral and let the car slow down while in neutral, with some braking as needed. If the traffic starts moving again and the car speed is around 20mph, I just shift into 2nd gear and continue on. Is this harmful to the transmission because I skipped 3rd and 4th gears? Or is it necessary for me to down shift from 5th to 4th, to 3rd, then to 2nd?

only in the USA

[bruin1md]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Had to actually see what I do - and it is clutch in, through the turn and clutch out during very last part of turn as I straighten). Probably from driving in Chicago winters where the LAST thing you want is the car in gear as you turn.




Yikes - so many things I disagree with
1. Clutch depressed causes no wear to clutch (throw-out bearings yes)
2. If I were to do an emergency braking maneuver and car was in gear - I'm positive it will jump a bit at the end as the engine stalls - so clutch in braking is (in my argument) faster/shorter - at least with modern cars.
3. "..the car handles best when it's either braking or accelerating" - that's incorrect - the car can turn, stop, or accelerate - and it does each of these best when done independently (especially the stop/accelerate - but you get the idea ). It is a good idea to slightly load up the front prior to a turn and start accelerating out of a turn - but during the turn, you don't want to be doing either of these (unless you have a bunch of 13 year olds in the car telling you to powerslide!)





The rev match does nothing if the clutch is in - if I were to do the rev match and release the clutch, then fine, but de-clutching does not add any significant wear.

Completely with your responses to the other posts
Regarding what you do, that's exactly how I drive.......clutch in, slowing down as I downshift, then make my turn with the clutch still in, and then let it out as I'm completing the turn and driving off.

[Nezil]

I'm not a raceing driver, so anything I've said comes from what I learned when I learned at 17 in the UK.

Your approach doesn't sound correct to me, but it's just my opinion, and I didn't mean to offend. Likewise, my approach doesn't sound correct to you, and I'm taking no offence either.

Juts a shame there isn't an 'authority' on the matter, because I for one would love to know the correct approach(s) from the point of view of efficiency, performance and minimizing wear and tear, each with safety as the biggest priority.

[M2Nebula]

Originally Posted by Nezil

I'm not a raceing driver, so anything I've said comes from what I learned when I learned at 17 in the UK.

Your approach doesn't sound correct to me, but it's just my opinion, and I didn't mean to offend. Likewise, my approach doesn't sound correct to you, and I'm taking no offence either.

Juts a shame there isn't an 'authority' on the matter, because I for one would love to know the correct approach(s) from the point of view of efficiency, performance and minimizing wear and tear, each with safety as the biggest priority.

You are being too kind. Told myself I wouldn't intervene on this thread, but it's driving me f'n crazy. First off, if you are learning to drive a manual, or even DCT for that matter and are starting off in an M2 then you either have too much money or not enough common sense. As someone said before, buy a beater and beat on it, wtf. What the hell ever happened to working your way up through the ranks?

From what I am reading, please correct me if wrong, that some are actually going through the turn with the clutch in, basically coasting, and then letting the clutch out and so on. In almost every situation one should have already established the proper gear based on engine revs and speed, braking as needed, and been set up prior so they can drive through the turn with power or possibly decelerating with engine braking. The vehicle chassis/drivetrain should be under torque so it has proper attitude and hence direction. The suspension will lift if not under torque and you loose grip/traction.

Some advanced skills require shifting and/or trail braking while mid corner to keep balance and chassis attitude. This was especially important in more flimsy designs of prior years. More modern cars are much more forgiving and almost drive for you.

I am not really fond of over regulation, but in Europe one cannot even get their license without fairly rigorous training. On motorcycles you must start out with a small displacement machine first to learn. I love the US and it's freedom, but some times I just scratch my head.

[reppucci]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

From what I am reading, please correct me if wrong, that some are actually going through the turn with the clutch in, basically coasting, and then letting the clutch out and so on. In almost every situation one should have already established the proper gear based on engine revs and speed, braking as needed, and been set up prior so they can drive through the turn with power or possibly decelerating with engine braking. The vehicle chassis/drivetrain should be under torque so it has proper attitude and hence direction. The suspension will lift if not under torque and you loose grip/traction.

^^^^ This. Keeping clutch in during a turn (akin to going through a turn with the car in neutral!!!), even/especially in snow, doesn't make any sense to me. You have no control over the car!!!

I have been driving a manual since age 16...for 44 years..and the above is based on everyday normal non track driving..highway and New York City "stop and go" driving.

just my 0.02

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by M2Nebula

You are being too kind. Told myself I wouldn't intervene on this thread, but it's driving me f'n crazy. First off, if you are learning to drive a manual, or even DCT for that matter and are starting off in an M2 then you either have too much money or not enough common sense. As someone said before, buy a beater and beat on it, wtf. What the hell ever happened to working your way up through the ranks?

From what I am reading, please correct me if wrong, that some are actually going through the turn with the clutch in, basically coasting, and then letting the clutch out and so on. In almost every situation one should have already established the proper gear based on engine revs and speed, braking as needed, and been set up prior so they can drive through the turn with power or possibly decelerating with engine braking. The vehicle chassis/drivetrain should be under torque so it has proper attitude and hence direction. The suspension will lift if not under torque and you loose grip/traction.

Some advanced skills require shifting and/or trail braking while mid corner to keep balance and chassis attitude. This was especially important in more flimsy designs of prior years. More modern cars are much more forgiving and almost drive for you.

I am not really fond of over regulation, but in Europe one cannot even get their license without fairly rigorous training. On motorcycles you must start out with a small displacement machine first to learn. I love the US and it's freedom, but some times I just scratch my head.

Well, I've had a stick car since 1987, so pretty sure I'm not just learning.

I do know - that at a track, you select the proper gear and do not leave the clutch in during the turn. As I pointed out, that doesn't work as well here on the streets of Chicago in weather.

And since there is basically no engine braking in a modern car...

Nezil, learned one way, I learned another - and he is correct, there is no "authority" on this for the streets as far as I know. But I think I clarified the why of my responses pretty well.

and crap, I just realized, I'm old!

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by reppucci

^^^^ This. Keeping clutch in during a turn (akin to going through a turn with the car in neutral!!!), even/especially in snow, doesn't make any sense to me. You have no control over the car!!!

I have been driving a manual since age 16...for 44 years..and the above is based on everyday normal non track driving..highway and New York City "stop and go" driving.

just my 0.02

I can simply release the clutch and have power, but how you are turning in the snow in gear while in motion is beyond me. With all of my stick cars, clutching in, brings the rear in-line - keeping the power on, aka the wheels under power in a turn, will cause the car to spin (well if the traction control wasn't there )