02-16-2017, 01:36 PM | #45 |
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Sorry it took me so long to give the next update, but here we go.
As mentioned previously, I knew that the two main weak points on the car I was going to have to update would be the brakes and the cooling. For the brakes, it was easy enough - I just gave Essex a call and ordered the AP Racing kit. For cooling, it was a bit more tricky. While I think it’s unfair to call the M2 a parts bin car, there are certain areas where it is a strange mix of standard N55 parts as well as bespoke M2 parts. The cooling system is one such area. Many people say that the M2 does not need increased cooling, but I don’t believe that’s true. The M2 shares almost all of the radiator cores in the car with other N55 engines, and as the highest tuned variant of the N55 it is thusly running the closest to the cooling limits. I have been extensively tracking the N55 since 2013 and have found that with this engine, heat output rises drastically once you start making more power and raising boost. Before we look at the M2’s cooling system in detail, I just want to say a few words about what I think is a common misconception in the N55 world. Everyone who tracks these cars focuses on oil temperature, but almost entirely ignores coolant temps. This is probably BMWs fault - my old X1 had an oil temp gauge instead of a coolant temp gauge, and the M2 takes a step back by having neither. Further, most N55s tend to run hotter oil temps than many people are used to from other platforms. A typical N55 will cruise between 235 and 255F depending on ambient. This scares people, so they talk about it more. Oil temperature IS a real problem on track. With my previous car, it was very easy to exceed 300f on the track. This is despite having the full M-sport line of cooling, which includes the passenger side oil cooler. My car was having strange “ghost” limp mode issues where the power was clearly down, but it wasn’t throwing any codes until oil temp hit 300. I went through a lot of time and expense to custom fabricate a dual core system that incorporated two massive Setrab cores with ducting, and it worked great to drop my oil temp to around 200 on cruise, and never above 230f on track. But my car was still pulling throttle, which was driving me insane! What finally clued me into what was happening was that during a track day in Colorado at Pueblo Motorsports park, iDrive showed a coolant temp related limp mode, not an oil temp limp mode. This made perfect sense that it only happened in Colorado and not in my home area of Cincinnati - the thinner air in Colorado has a lower heat capacity for the same volume as more dense Cincinnati air. If my car was running close enough to coolant temp limp mode that simply a change in elevation caused a full blown overheating limp mode, I reasoned it was probably protectively pulling power before the iDrive warning. Sure enough, that’s exactly what was happening. Here is a chart to show when the ECU begins pulling throttle based on coolant temps. Pay attention specifically to the temperature range 117-120. During this coolant temp range, the car will NOT display a warning in iDrive, but beginning at 117 degrees it will begin reducing power output! This is what was happening to me on-track. So from the perspective of maintaining full power output on track, there are two specific temps you will want to keep in mind: Oil temp needs to be below 270 Coolant temp needs to be below 117 degrees Even if these temperatures are exceeded for a split second, the engine will reduce power output for a period of time. One example of what was happening to me was in the braking zone after a long straight. The reduced airflow from slowing down right after a 3-4-5 gear pull would cause coolant temps to spike from 111C on average to 117 or 118. Hit the gas coming out of the corner and you would get reduced power. In short, you really need to address both of these things on any N55 based car if you plan on pushing past stock power. You may not notice you are getting reduced power, but particularly on the coolant side my belief is that it happens to the vast majority of advanced BMW drivers. Now that we have established the problem parameters in the cooling system, let’s take a look at what the M2’s system is actually made of. There are five primary radiators in the M2: 1. Main radiator 2. Aux coolant radiator (driver’s side fender) 3. Oil cooler (passenger side fender 4. DCT cooler (mounted in front of the main radiator) 5. Intercooler (front bottom center of the car I don’t really understand the claim of everyone that the M2 has some sort of “special” cooling system since the part numbers are shared with other N55’s as follows: 1. Part number 17118672103, shared with F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 2. Part number 17118625447, shared with F20, F21, F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 3. Part number 17217853240 - this is technically unique to the M2, but other N55’s have a slightly different shaped core in the exact same location. I think the only difference is in fitment, not performance. 4. Part number 17212409076, this part number is unique due to the fittings and hoses, but it uses the exact same core as the M3/M4 5. Part number 17118672103, shared with F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 Here is what all of these look like pulled out of the car, plus an aftermarket intercooler for comparison: Besides from the slight differences in the oil cooler, the M2 has absolutely nothing special about the hard parts in the cooling system vs. the standard N55. The superiority of the M2’s cooling system is another victim of Bavarian Marketing Werke, just like the closed deck engine and “the largest tires that can fit from the factory without rubbing are 245 in the front.” That being said, there is one important difference between DCT equipped cars and standard N55 equipped automatics, at least from the E9x series. The ZF 6 speed auto was cooled by the main automatic radiator, and that thing ran hot. The DCT cars have their own dedicated DCT cooler that is not plumbed to the main radiator. This means that DCT cars will absolutely run cooler than automatic N55 cars. This is where the M2 probably has an advantage. I have previously worked with CSF Racing to solve coolant temp issues on my old build (old review of the previous gen N55 radiator: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1121751), so Ravi at CSF was one of my first emails when I began kicking around this M2 build. I discovered that Yost Autosport was using a custom CSF DCT cooler which looked just like the stock M2 core with different lines. I reached out and asked if CSF would tweak the S55 DCT cooler to fit my N55 car, and after many emails it eventually turned into a co-development project where I stripped out my entire cooling system and sent it into CSF. CSF Radiator from my X1 - Similar to M2 Radiator CSF is quite an impressive outfit to work with. What really separates them from most vendors on the forum is that they are actually a hard-parts manufacturer that owns their own intellectual property; they do not simply contract out everything to some third party company and slap their name on it. As part of the development process, CSF is 3d scanning everything - cores, lines, etc, and will be modeling larger and more efficient cores. I will wait until development is finished and I have the parts back to post some of the most unique innovations we are trying to make work, but at the most basic level we plan on utilizing the efficiency gains from their their proprietary B-tube technology as well as increasing core sizes where possibly to achieve significant gains. CSF B-Tube Technology - notice the seam in the middle A typical radiator tube is in the shape of an “O” - we’ve all seen them, they just look like standard pipes. CSF developed a “B” shaped tube that is more difficult to manufacture, but has more surface area and is structurally stronger than an “O” shaped tube. This takes special care to manufacture as instead of just throwing in a prefab tubing section they have to actually form and braze the tubes to seal them, but it pays off by being able to use thinner and lighter aluminum due to higher structural integrity. This directly translates to higher thermal efficiency. Finally, fin specifications are calculated for each individual application and then measured in their wind tunnel lab. This type of commitment to performance development is the reason that you will find their products used in many of the top racing series throughout the sport. CSF Racing Multi-Lourvered Fin Pack I can’t wait to get the finished parts in and begin testing, and we look forward to making them available for all M2 owners down the road. It will be nice for enthusiasts to have cooling options that are professionally developed and track tested. I think you will see that as a theme as my build progresses - in a market full of bling, stance, and hard parking, I greatly appreciate companies that put development resources into low-volume, low-margin, professional motorsports products to support our passion. Last edited by paradoxical3; 02-16-2017 at 01:46 PM.. |
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02-16-2017, 03:40 PM | #46 |
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I am still stuck on Scarlet vs Mila....
Very good start so far! Can't wait to see the finished product. I think I saw this on instagram yesterday somewhere???
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02-16-2017, 04:50 PM | #47 |
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Best thread in the forum right now. This may explain why my car would go into limp mode near the end of every 25 min. track session. Thanks for the development!
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02-16-2017, 07:22 PM | #48 |
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[QUOTE=paradoxical3;21284898]Sorry it took me so long to give the next update, but here we go.
As mentioned previously, I knew that the two main weak points on the car I was going to have to update would be the brakes and the cooling. For the brakes, it was easy enough - I just gave Essex a call and ordered the AP Racing kit. For cooling, it was a bit more tricky. While I think it’s unfair to call the M2 a parts bin car, there are certain areas where it is a strange mix of standard N55 parts as well as bespoke M2 parts. The cooling system is one such area. Many people say that the M2 does not need increased cooling, but I don’t believe that’s true. The M2 shares almost all of the radiator cores in the car with other N55 engines, and as the highest tuned variant of the N55 it is thusly running the closest to the cooling limits. I have been extensively tracking the N55 since 2013 and have found that with this engine, heat output rises drastically once you start making more power and raising boost. Before we look at the M2’s cooling system in detail, I just want to say a few words about what I think is a common misconception in the N55 world. Everyone who tracks these cars focuses on oil temperature, but almost entirely ignores coolant temps. This is probably BMWs fault - my old X1 had an oil temp gauge instead of a coolant temp gauge, and the M2 takes a step back by having neither. Further, most N55s tend to run hotter oil temps than many people are used to from other platforms. A typical N55 will cruise between 235 and 255F depending on ambient. This scares people, so they talk about it more. Oil temperature IS a real problem on track. With my previous car, it was very easy to exceed 300f on the track. This is despite having the full M-sport line of cooling, which includes the passenger side oil cooler. My car was having strange “ghost” limp mode issues where the power was clearly down, but it wasn’t throwing any codes until oil temp hit 300. I went through a lot of time and expense to custom fabricate a dual core system that incorporated two massive Setrab cores with ducting, and it worked great to drop my oil temp to around 200 on cruise, and never above 230f on track. But my car was still pulling throttle, which was driving me insane! What finally clued me into what was happening was that during a track day in Colorado at Pueblo Motorsports park, iDrive showed a coolant temp related limp mode, not an oil temp limp mode. This made perfect sense that it only happened in Colorado and not in my home area of Cincinnati - the thinner air in Colorado has a lower heat capacity for the same volume as more dense Cincinnati air. If my car was running close enough to coolant temp limp mode that simply a change in elevation caused a full blown overheating limp mode, I reasoned it was probably protectively pulling power before the iDrive warning. Sure enough, that’s exactly what was happening. Here is a chart to show when the ECU begins pulling throttle based on coolant temps. Pay attention specifically to the temperature range 117-120. During this coolant temp range, the car will NOT display a warning in iDrive, but beginning at 117 degrees it will begin reducing power output! This is what was happening to me on-track. So from the perspective of maintaining full power output on track, there are two specific temps you will want to keep in mind: Oil temp needs to be below 270 Coolant temp needs to be below 117 degrees Even if these temperatures are exceeded for a split second, the engine will reduce power output for a period of time. One example of what was happening to me was in the braking zone after a long straight. The reduced airflow from slowing down right after a 3-4-5 gear pull would cause coolant temps to spike from 111C on average to 117 or 118. Hit the gas coming out of the corner and you would get reduced power. In short, you really need to address both of these things on any N55 based car if you plan on pushing past stock power. You may not notice you are getting reduced power, but particularly on the coolant side my belief is that it happens to the vast majority of advanced BMW drivers. Now that we have established the problem parameters in the cooling system, let’s take a look at what the M2’s system is actually made of. There are five primary radiators in the M2: 1. Main radiator 2. Aux coolant radiator (driver’s side fender) 3. Oil cooler (passenger side fender 4. DCT cooler (mounted in front of the main radiator) 5. Intercooler (front bottom center of the car I don’t really understand the claim of everyone that the M2 has some sort of “special” cooling system since the part numbers are shared with other N55’s as follows: 1. Part number 17118672103, shared with F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 2. Part number 17118625447, shared with F20, F21, F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 3. Part number 17217853240 - this is technically unique to the M2, but other N55’s have a slightly different shaped core in the exact same location. I think the only difference is in fitment, not performance. 4. Part number 17212409076, this part number is unique due to the fittings and hoses, but it uses the exact same core as the M3/M4 5. Part number 17118672103, shared with F22, F87, F30, F32, F36 Here is what all of these look like pulled out of the car, plus an aftermarket intercooler for comparison: Besides from the slight differences in the oil cooler, the M2 has absolutely nothing special about the hard parts in the cooling system vs. the standard N55. The superiority of the M2’s cooling system is another victim of Bavarian Marketing Werke, just like the closed deck engine and “the largest tires that can fit from the factory without rubbing are 245 in the front.” That being said, there is one important difference between DCT equipped cars and standard N55 equipped automatics, at least from the E9x series. The ZF 6 speed auto was cooled by the main automatic radiator, and that thing ran hot. The DCT cars have their own dedicated DCT cooler that is not plumbed to the main radiator. This means that DCT cars will absolutely run cooler than automatic N55 cars. This is where the M2 probably has an advantage. I have previously worked with CSF Racing to solve coolant temp issues on my old build (old review of the previous gen N55 radiator: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1121751), so Ravi at CSF was one of my first emails when I began kicking around this M2 build. I discovered that Yost Autosport was using a custom CSF DCT cooler which looked just like the stock M2 core with different lines. I reached out and asked if CSF would tweak the S55 DCT cooler to fit my N55 car, and after many emails it eventually turned into a co-development project where I stripped out my entire cooling system and sent it into CSF. CSF Radiator from my X1 - Similar to M2 Radiator CSF is quite an impressive outfit to work with. What really separates them from most vendors on the forum is that they are actually a hard-parts manufacturer that owns their own intellectual property; they do not simply contract out everything to some third party company and slap their name on it. As part of the development process, CSF is 3d scanning everything - cores, lines, etc, and will be modeling larger and more efficient cores. I will wait until development is finished and I have the parts back to post some of the most unique innovations we are trying to make work, but at the most basic level we plan on utilizing the efficiency gains from their their proprietary B-tube technology as well as increasing core sizes where possibly to achieve significant gains. CSF B-Tube Technology - notice the seam in the middle A typical radiator tube is in the shape of an “O” - we’ve all seen them, they just look like standard pipes. CSF developed a “B” shaped tube that is more difficult to manufacture, but has more surface area and is structurally stronger than an “O” shaped tube. This takes special care to manufacture as instead of just throwing in a prefab tubing section they have to actually form and braze the tubes to seal them, but it pays off by being able to use thinner and lighter aluminum due to higher structural integrity. This directly translates to higher thermal efficiency. Finally, fin specifications are calculated for each individual application and then measured in their wind tunnel lab. This type of commitment to performance development is the reason that you will find their products used in many of the top racing series throughout the sport. CSF Racing Multi-Lourvered Fin Pack I can’t wait to get the finished parts in and begin testing, and we look forward to making them available for all M2 owners down the road. It will be nice for enthusiasts to have cooling options that are professionally developed and track tested. I think you will see that as a theme as my build progresses - in a market full of bling, stance, and hard parking, I greatly appreciate companies that put development resources into low-volume, low-margin, professional motorsports products to support our passion.[/QUOTE your gonna have to help me out here, Coolant temp is map and ecu controled via electric pump. Sport sport plus runs cooler, eco hotter. The numbers in that chart are in C, not F, so the delta is pretty large, also it is my understanding bmw component protection does not cut power, just accessories (a/c) and may run pump/fans when car is off. in a short span ( few seconds) for this to be accurate your moving the needle over 13 degrees F (from component protect to emergency)? I would think you might be getting some fuel starvation, I have had that in similar turns, the way the pump feeds and the tank is divided on 2 series it can starve a bit. There are aftermarket kits and upgraded pumps, pickups. Been on my list but takes below a 1/2 tank to come on, not frequent but once and a while. 235 does not have gauges, but I have the m perf wheel, it is always on oil and coolant at track. I have never have seen the temp above 228 and usualy is 202-212, oil on track is 230-240. I check at least every lap, a habit of endurance racing. Keep in mind I am usually burning the whole tank of fuel in one stint, not typ. 30 min run groups. I have 18k on the car, 11k are track miles. I only use this car to drive to the track, track it and back to the shop. I run 0w 40 oil with zddp additive (no cat) and 70% distilled water 30% coolant, with water wetter. My car is a manual, not sure where they stick your dct cooler. Brake ducts good luck, you can see with the bumper off there is just no space in there. I gave up. I just took off my dust shields and cut some more holes in a few plastic trim areas on the 235, still run stock calipers, rotors with Porterfield pads ss lines and SRF Fluid. The calipers turned a weird green from heat very quick. You have more capacity for heat in the new setup, and better cooling veins, so should help a lot, but not in my limited budget. The meth will keep the iat temps down, and internals clean. The jb4 controller is not that great in integration. I could run larger nozzles and have tried, but the power delivery is too delayed and abrupt from input (think nitrous) which has no benefit on track. 2.5-gallon tank is enough for one stint (tank of fuel on track) without getting low to starve. I use 2 cm3 nozzles. This delivers pretty good amortization, and keeps iat 15-20 degrees cooler on track ( enough to stop the ecu timing issues when hot) The way mine is setup I end up being slightly rich, which is better for how I use the car. Power increase is nominal, maybe 15 hp with this setup. I only use meth the track. 50/50 is best option for n55 motor with tune. Pure water has more heat capacity, but can cause other issues in combustion (pressures, detonation). If you would like more detail pm me, happy to share. |
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02-16-2017, 08:24 PM | #49 | ||||||||
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The M4 GTS has a different fuel pickup than the standard M2/M3 that solves this problem. I am trying to figure out how difficult it is to retrofit. There are also other types of aftermarket pickup systems as you say, but they can be complicated. Quote:
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Last edited by paradoxical3; 02-16-2017 at 08:55 PM.. |
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02-17-2017, 08:52 AM | #50 |
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Im installing Dinan's fuel pump upgrade to combat fuel starvation on the track. https://www.dinancars.com/product/r4...ries&mid=1243/
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02-17-2017, 11:17 AM | #51 | |
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02-17-2017, 11:49 AM | #52 | |
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The pump would have to be stuck on, the bms kit is just a rebranded cooling mist kit, with hookups for jb4. Your car will kick into limp mode if there is too much water meth, I had this happen many times during tuning the meth. It is more sensitive than the Failsafe controler on the kit. the smaller nozzels help with how much is consumed. The stock turbo on 93 gas does not need that much additional fuel (meth) to bump up to 16-18 psi. After cooling the iat temp and density, The meth/water reduces the amount of heat energy absorbed into the cylinder walls. Part of combustion energy from the form of heat is converted to the form of pressure. As the water droplets vaporize by absorbing heat, they turn to high pressure steam. I would assume this would lower temps all around, but I do not know if this effect is measurable ( I assume it is to volume). |
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02-17-2017, 12:09 PM | #53 | |
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02-17-2017, 02:55 PM | #54 |
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Wow can't wait for the final results. Like others have said, finally an interesting thread! Also you all have provided some really great information in regards to tracking. Keep it up!
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02-18-2017, 12:04 PM | #55 |
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We need to get this radiator developed ASAP. Spring is fast approaching and Daddy has a itchy credit card finger.
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02-20-2017, 09:28 PM | #56 |
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Just got back from a business trip to Vancouver. Wow! Every time I go there I am blown away by both the man-made and natural beauty. Supercars are everywhere (you see 5-6 lambos per day, easily) and the food is outrageous. I highly recommend the Blue Water Cafe, which has the most ridiculously amazing seafood dish I have ever tried. Sablefish in miso sake glaze with bok choy, edamame, quinoa and shiitake mushrooms with yuzu dashi! Finishing up with a glass of George T. Stagg was the endcap to a perfect dinner.
Blue Water Cafe Sablefish What's that you say? You are here for cars and not food? Fine! Finally got a few free minutes to head down to the garage and make some process. While I am stuck in "waiting for parts in the mail" mode, I decided I would get a start on stripping some of the interior. The rear seats and sound deadening were and obvious and easy first choice. In fact, it was easier than I expected. 1. Fold the rear seats forward to give yourself better access to the rear. 2. Firmly grip the bottom rear seat cushion and pull directly up. It might feel like you are going to break something, but you won't. Give it a firm pull and you'll feel it pop up. Go to the other side of the car and repeat. Then just pull the bottom cushion out of one of the doors and set it aside. 3. Grip the side bolsters under where the rear seatbelts are. Pull the top of it towards you and away from the side of the car, and it will pop free just like the bottom cushion. Repeat on the other side. 4. Take a T50 external torx bit and remove the two bolts (one on each side) located on the sides of the rear seat back assembly. They are black bolts that go into a black bracket. I used an impact gun here for speed but you can get them out with a 1/2 in ratchet no problem. 5. Go to the trunk and pull the seat back fold-down levers. 6. Fold down both seat backs so they are laying flat. At this point they are only held into the car by a white rod that connects the two seats and goes through a bracket that is welded to the body of the car. 7. Pull the two seatbacks apart from each other until they are separate and not joined at the white rod. 8. Using a trim tool, pop the six plastic trim fasteners that hold the insulation in, and remove it. All done! A grand total of 56.51lbs saved in a total of 15 minutes work. This has got to be one of the best bang for the buck you can possibly do to the car, especially since the weight is at the middle of the chassis and relatively high up. The total list of weights: Seat bottom cushion: 15.3lbs Seat back 1 (smaller): 14.5lbs Seat back 2: 21.11lbs Side bolsters: 4.2lbs Insulation: 1.4lbs T50 bolt location to remove seat backs Popping the insulation rivets Finished and 56lbs Lighter This is so easy and quick that it is a no-brainer for anyone that tracks their car or doesn't use their backseats. I can completely reverse this in 10-15 minutes, but it's a lot of weight saved and should also slightly lower the center of gravity of the car. Between this and some front seats you can save about 100lbs. I anticipate being able to save a solid 200lbs+ over stock and still keep the car completely street able and comfortable. I plan on making a trim panel from carpet and foam that should weigh about 5-6lbs but make the car look like it came this way stock; that way I can remove for the track but put it back on for shows and when I want to drive the car long distances. |
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02-21-2017, 05:01 AM | #57 |
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I enjoy this thread more everyday. Subscribed.
I've been wondering how much is to be saved with backseat removal. This will be done prior to my first event this spring. Thank you! And the food looks AMAZING
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02-22-2017, 09:48 AM | #58 |
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Thanks for weighing the back seats - I'm actually surprised they don't weigh more! What's your plan for the front seats? I'm assuming no cage if you're planning on being able to put the rear seats back in occasionally. Great to see someone actually building an M2 for the track lol.
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02-22-2017, 10:48 AM | #59 | |
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03-15-2017, 03:45 PM | #60 |
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This thread is crying out for an update! lol
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03-15-2017, 04:18 PM | #61 |
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I was going to wait until the wheels arrived, but since you asked....I am excited to welcome two new partners for this build: Winn AutoSports and Klassen iD Wheels!
I will do a full update a bit later, but these will be something special. They are a completely custom 18in version of the M52R design (they have never produced an 18in before) specifically made for my car to be able to run 75/295 rubber. Super-lightweight and forged in the USA! I was reaching out to multiple wheel manufacturers to see if they could make something with pretty tight requirements. Absolutely had to be 18in, clear the AP9668 caliper, not have to use spacers, and weigh in the 18lb area. I wanted to go as wide tires as possible, which was an issue. Several companies didn't even respond, several told me they couldn't do it, but Michael from WinnAutosport pulled some strings at Klassen. After a couple of weeks of fitment templates and CAD design work, they came back and said they would love to make me something special. I absolutely can't wait to get them in. Should be one of the few high-end truly track focused forged wheels for this platform. The unsprung weight reduction between these and the AP Racing kit will be pretty massive. We got our inspiration from the BMW M6 GT3 race car - which also features AP Racing brakes and a similar black, 5 spoke Y design! Last edited by paradoxical3; 03-15-2017 at 04:24 PM.. |
03-15-2017, 08:52 PM | #63 | ||
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Flows a lot of fuel too. I saw some meth convos in here as well. I updated the firmware to EWG-11 and EWG wires. FUA-40, absolutely zero throttle closures and HPFP reading between 15-18, I used to dip to around 12 on pump gas and 9 on an e30 mix. That was without meth too. I just logged the BMS meth setup, the HPFP is basically sleeping now. |
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03-16-2017, 08:52 AM | #64 |
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03-16-2017, 08:55 AM | #65 | |
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Saved about the same in weight. Around 45 lbs Nice to see that the way to remove a BMW rear seat hasn't changed in a few decades Excellent instructions |
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04-22-2017, 04:32 PM | #66 |
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Any updates on the CSF radiator?
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