[SoCalRob]

Originally Posted by RAM_E90_F87

I've heard from a reliable source the engineers and accountants were going to compromise and split the difference between B58 and N55 and design the H56.5 with a semi-open/semi-closed design for the MY 2018 LCI.

I've heard from an even more reliable source that, for MY18, you'll be able to select open versus closed deck via coding.

Originally Posted by RAM_E90_F87

While the rest of you debate engine design and wait for 'the next best thing', we M2 owners will be blasting around enjoying our cars.
Anyone else tired of the whining?

Quite. -scr


.

[flyaway]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

Your a freaking idiot. plain and simple..... its closed deck.

Originally Posted by Artemis

This erratic name calling has to stop, definitely.

You're less than two months on board and repeatedly violate basic house rules of respect.

I can only repeat what I told you earlier:


Hopefully the message gets across this time: behave or leave.

Where the common sense is beyond recall, the aphorism gains in meaning. Hasier Agirre

And yet, I wonder, why do we still have to stand this nullitas?

[Dackelone]

Originally Posted by RPM2-85

When the peanut gallery dissing the car and talking out their ass for no reason leave, I will leave....

Deal?

Keep this up and you WILL be out of here real quick. Its time to grow up and show some respect to your fellow forum user - or leave. You have been warned.


IF anyone see's a questionable post by anyone... please flag/report it or send me a PM with a link. We don't need those kind of people on our forum.

Dackel

[the_phew]

Wow, I've seen people debate Trump vs. Clinton in a more civil manner than this "deck" kerfuffle. I didn't intend to start a sh!tstorm; just fishing for insider info.

In any case, the N engines clatter like a John Deere tractor at idle, while the B engines just purr. That's reason enough to prefer them; fuel consumption and possible durability aside.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by the_phew

In any case, the N engines clatter like a John Deere tractor at idle, while the B engines just purr. That's reason enough to prefer them; fuel consumption and possible durability aside.

Maybe the N20/N26 or whatever the 4 cyl is clatters. The N55 is as smooth as butter from idle to redline.

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

Maybe the N20/N26 or whatever the 4 cyl is clatters. The N55 is as smooth as butter from idle to redline.

Sure does run smooth as butter. First I've heard of such a claim...

[the_phew]

This article details all of the differences between the N55 and B58:

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/...ine-6-cylinder

Tl;dr-N55 was designed to control costs, B58 makes fewer concessions to keep costs down

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by the_phew

This article details all of the differences between the N55 and B58:

http://youwheel.com/home/2016/03/27/...ine-6-cylinder

Tl;dr-N55 was designed to control costs, B58 makes fewer concessions to keep costs down

Writer didn't bother doing too much research for the article.

"The B58’s cylinder block is closed deck; while N54/55 are open-deck"

The N55B30T0 is also closed deck..

"There are other hints which indicate the B58 is designed as a high output engine. For example its crankshaft is forged, stronger than N55’s casted unit"

The N55 crankshaft in the M235i is also forged...

[Dylan86]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Writer didn't bother doing too much research for the article.

"The B58’s cylinder block is closed deck; while N54/55 are open-deck"

The N55B30T0 is also closed deck..

"There are other hints which indicate the B58 is designed as a high output engine. For example its crankshaft is forged, stronger than N55’s casted unit"

The N55 crankshaft in the M235i is also forged...

Thank you

Another one of those "videos" to take with a grain of salt.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

Writer didn't bother doing too much research for the article.
"The B58’s cylinder block is closed deck; while N54/55 are open-deck"
The N55B30T0 is also closed deck.

Yes, we both contributed to an intense but constructive exchange of views regarding this aspect in the dedicated thread. Two camps will continue to exist, as long as no-one shows a picture of the opened N55B30T0 sporting the M2.

For those who followed that full discussion, you can skip the rest of this post. For the others, here's a summary:

Facts:

• the S55B30T0 engine (M3/M4) features indisputably a 'closed deck' design and features LDS-coated aluminium cylinder liners (LDS = Lichtbogendrahtspritzen = twin wire arc spray process); the N55B30T0 engine (M2), on the contrary, has moulder cylinder liners made from cast iron;
• the N55B30O0 engine (M235i) features indisputably an 'open deck' design;
• the N55B30T0 (X4 M40i + M2) is a retooled version of the N55B30O0 engine (M235i), featuring some components of the S55B30T0 engine (M3/M4);
• no-one over here reported of having already seen an opened N55B30T0 engine;
• last Spring BMS experimented with the M2 engine and concluded that it had no idea on the deck (when asked whether it is 'open deck' or 'closed deck', further to the scepsis regarding the 'closed deck' claim);
• the BMW Germany press releases of October 2015 regarding the X4 M40i and M2 featured initially a 'closed deck' design reference;
• however, BMW Germany updated both these press releases in February 2016: the 'closed deck' reference was completely removed (M2: look here - X4 M40i look here):
  • "The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminium unit is extremely rigid due to its closed-deck design - which means that the cylinder water jacket is closed at the top. This enables higher cylinder pressures for improved power output and torque"
  was rephrased in the modified press release as follows (and the original press release was removed):
  • "The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminium unit is low in weight yet at the same time very rigid in design. This enables higher cylinder pressures, which play their part in the improved power output and impressive efficiency of the BMW M2 Coupé."
• no word about the alleged 'closed deck' design of the N55B30O0 engine in the M2 Technical Training (which outlines the main differences between the M235i and M2), no reference to 'closed deck' on the official BMW Germany websites (official German BMW website, BMW PressClub Global M2 press release worldwide, current BMW M2 press kits), no word about 'closed deck' in M2 interviews with BMW M;
• arguments pro 'closed deck' design: the 'closed deck' reference is still around in some other press releases and US website + is also claimed to feature in the US M2 Technical Training (according to a BMW employee who looked it up for a forum fellow);
  unclear why BMW Germany did not arrange yet for removal of the 'closed deck' reference from all M2 materials worldwide; of course, removal ain't necessary if it's a fact rather than a material mistake in the documents/websites.

Interpretation:

• I leave it up to your discretion to guess whether the N55B30T0 engine sporting the M2 features either an 'open deck' or 'closed deck' design; personally, though I definitely wish my M2 to be 'closed deck', I remain skeptical and, except if proved otherwise, consider it to be 'open deck'; why would BMW spend development time and resources on redesigning the N55B30O0 (M235i - open deck) with 'closed deck' layout, making it - if we stretch the idea - some kind of semi-mimic, watered down version of the S55B30T0 (M3/M4); open deck can handle 400hp; if 'closed deck' mattered, it would have been more logical, for development time and resources reasons, to detune the S55 and call it a day (though that choice would have come at the expense of an increased M2 price + would have 'breached' the M3/M4 hierarchy);
• on a German M2 forum some members recently expressed to be puzzled why some people on US forums keep claiming that the N55B30T0 engine is 'closed deck'; their approach: except if proved otherwise (and no such proof has been provided to date), it's 'open deck'.

[chris719]

Thank you Artemis for injecting some reason into this thread.

People get so sensitive about a topic that really doesn't matter just because they own the car and feel like they need to defend it as if it's feelings will be hurt.

The fact is, as Artemis has pointed out, the statement about the closed deck had been removed from at least some of the materials in a later revision.

When you actually think about it, it should appear unlikely that BMW has spent the money to design and produce a separate closed deck block part for the T0 N55 only. Design and validation costs are not insignificant. All of the other parts that were drawn upon were already designed and used on other cars.

This is an engine limited by its tiny turbo... and even open-deck N55s with aftermarket turbos don't seem to be blowing up.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Dylan86

It is in fact closed on the '14+ M235i/M2 N55's, that has been confirmed time over time. It is open deck on all other variants. Many misleading YouTube videos out there, and many more misleading threads in the forums especially with the latest release of the technical info on the B58. They generalize a lot of the N55 specs, not considering there are other variants, most importantly on our 2 series cars. Either way I could care less, I don't buy this type of car to make 600+hp, I buy it to drive it and enjoy it for what it was built for.

D

As Artemis has pointed out above, it is NOT closed desk on any 235i 100% guaranteed. Just trying to correct misinformation.

[M-Pilot]

Originally Posted by Artemis

This erratic name calling has to stop, definitely.

You're less than two months on board and repeatedly violate basic house rules of respect.

I can only repeat what I told you earlier:

Hopefully the message gets across this time: behave or leave.

Thank you!

[RAM_F30_F87]

The current car/engine is a blast to drive so missing out on that for who knows how long for 'the next big thing' is your call.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by RAM_E90_F87

The current car/engine is a blast to drive so missing out on that for who knows how long for 'the next big thing' is your call.

Agreed. The B58 would probably be a barely noticeable upgrade. The S55 would be much more substantial, but can they still preserve the balance of the car? A few reviews seem to think the huge power and throttle mapping in the S55 are part of what makes the M4's rear end "difficult".

[Ian ///M]

I can't wait for this shit to come out with different head or tail lights and that's the only change . Just so we don't have to keep seeing these threads

[quikM2]

Originally Posted by Ian ///M

I can't wait for this shit to come out with different head or tail lights and that's the only change . Just so we don't have to keep seeing these threads

amen

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by chris719

The fact is, as Artemis has pointed out, the statement about the closed deck had been removed from at least some of the materials in a later revision.

Another fact is that closed deck is still prominently advertised on the US website. How does one account for BMW systematically removing reference to closed deck on their materials, but leaving it up on a website where it is much more easily removed than revising a document?

[zenmaster]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Yes, we both contributed to an intense but constructive exchange of views regarding this aspect in the dedicated thread. Two camps will continue to exist, as long as no-one shows a picture of the opened N55B30T0 sporting the M2.

For those who followed that full discussion, you can skip the rest of this post. For the others, here's a summary:

Facts:

• the S55B30T0 engine (M3/M4) features indisputably a 'closed deck' design and features LDS-coated aluminium cylinder liners (LDS = Lichtbogendrahtspritzen = twin wire arc spray process); the N55B30T0 engine (M2), on the contrary, has moulder cylinder liners made from cast iron;
• the N55B30O0 engine (M235i) features indisputably an 'open deck' design;
• the N55B30T0 (X4 M40i + M2) is a retooled version of the N55B30O0 engine (M235i), featuring some components of the S55B30T0 engine (M3/M4);
• no-one over here reported of having already seen an opened N55B30T0 engine;
• last Spring BMS experimented with the M2 engine and concluded that it had no idea on the deck (when asked whether it is 'open deck' or 'closed deck', further to the scepsis regarding the 'closed deck' claim);
• the BMW Germany press releases of October 2015 regarding the X4 M40i and M2 featured initially a 'closed deck' design reference;
• however, BMW Germany updated both these press releases in February 2016: the 'closed deck' reference was completely removed (M2: look here - X4 M40i look here):
  • "The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminium unit is extremely rigid due to its closed-deck design - which means that the cylinder water jacket is closed at the top. This enables higher cylinder pressures for improved power output and torque"
  was rephrased in the modified press release as follows (and the original press release was removed):
  • "The lightweight, thermodynamically optimized, all-aluminium unit is low in weight yet at the same time very rigid in design. This enables higher cylinder pressures, which play their part in the improved power output and impressive efficiency of the BMW M2 Coupé."
• no word about the alleged 'closed deck' design of the N55B30O0 engine in the M2 Technical Training (which outlines the main differences between the M235i and M2), no reference to 'closed deck' on the official BMW Germany websites (official German BMW website, BMW PressClub Global M2 press release worldwide, current BMW M2 press kits), no word about 'closed deck' in M2 interviews with BMW M;
• arguments pro 'closed deck' design: the 'closed deck' reference is still around in some other press releases and US website + is also claimed to feature in the US M2 Technical Training (according to a BMW employee who looked it up for a forum fellow);
  unclear why BMW Germany did not arrange yet for removal of the 'closed deck' reference from all M2 materials worldwide; of course, removal ain't necessary if it's a fact rather than a material mistake in the documents/websites.

Interpretation:

• I leave it up to your discretion to guess whether the N55B30T0 engine sporting the M2 features either an 'open deck' or 'closed deck' design; personally, though I definitely wish my M2 to be 'closed deck', I remain skeptical and, except if proved otherwise, consider it to be 'open deck'; why would BMW spend development time and resources on redesigning the N55B30O0 (M235i - open deck) with 'closed deck' layout, making it - if we stretch the idea - some kind of semi-mimic, watered down version of the S55B30T0 (M3/M4); open deck can handle 400hp; if 'closed deck' mattered, it would have been more logical, for development time and resources reasons, to detune the S55 and call it a day (though that choice would have come at the expense of an increased M2 price + would have 'breached' the M3/M4 hierarchy);
• on a German M2 forum some members recently expressed to be puzzled why some people on US forums keep claiming that the N55B30T0 engine is 'closed deck'; their approach: except if proved otherwise (and no such proof has been provided to date), it's 'open deck'.

I appreciate how you clearly present info on this site. However, none of your info supporting an "open deck" M2/X4 M40i engine actually comes from an authoritative source, but rather from user forums and rather weak (IMO) conjecture. AFAIK, I'm the only one who took the time to actually ask BMW and report back what was said. I find that bizarre considering what seems to have been a great deal of time spent compiling non-authoritative sources and developing rather weak support against. That fact is, BMW has actually been more than willing to affirm a closed deck design for the engine used in the M2 and X4 M40i.

As you linked - through eventually getting hold of a BMW Genius with relevant info on hand, we have learned of the existence of a BMW engineering "Technical Training Manual "For Internal Use Only" that explicitly states "closed deck". (The ridiculously absurd counter to that fact is that it that such a manual must be an error!)

But the agents in the BMW Genius dept do not really speak directly for BMW and are typically not trained engineers, but rather "helpful online manuals for iDrive" you say?

So in an effort to "get to the top", I wrote an email to BMWNA directly and luckily was eventually forwarded to their "engine expert", the one and only Product and Technology Spokesperson (who holds an engineering degree) for BMW Group! But anyone in Customer Relations would presumably provide the same info, and would actually have been the appropriate channel. Keep in mind this is NOT the marketing dept whose material is being actively used as "proof" to support a closed deck - and that only through omission in certain markets' press releases?!

<omitted - some back and forth, regarding who to contact, regional marketing material differences, head gaskets, etc>

"... I am ... a customer in Atlanta trying to resolve an apparent discrepancy with this particular design feature of the N55B30T0 engine. All that I am really looking for is some authoritative verification that the BMW M2 and X4 M40i engine has, in fact, a closed-deck block. Perhaps I'm not going through the proper channels, but this is not something my dealer nor BMW Genius are able to answer at this time. Thank you for your help."

BMW Group's official response (provided just last month):

Happy to help and have your business.

The starting point for the engine design was the N55. However, the engine has been heavily modified and carries a different suffix designation to the N55 in the M235i. The heavy modification include changes to the engine block, rotating assembly, and forced induction system.

The N55 in the BMW M2 and BMW X4 M40i xDrive are indeed closed deck. The head gasket is the same as it didn’t require any adaptations even if it is now a closed deck design.

Now I'm kind of wondering, what more do you want? The fact that this individual is the 1) BMW Group's spokesperson who would be an accountable mouthpiece and 2) an engineer has sealed the question for me. Why? One simply can't have those resources, those qualifications, that responsibility and that level of technical knowledge, experience and training and still provide a BS response. Facts are simply checked and assured at this level of business folks, esp with direct, clear questions and submitted in writing.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by oldmanstyle

Another fact is that closed deck is still prominently advertised on the US website. How does one account for BMW systematically removing reference to closed deck on their materials, but leaving it up on a website where it is much more easily removed than revising a document?

According to the US version of the 1M Supplementary Owner's Manual, my former 1M featured a V8-engine. However, in real life, it didn't sound very V8.



No word about a V8-engine in the European version of that manual. According to that manual, my 1M was in fact an M3. However, in real life, I failed to find an M3 badge on my 1M.

[reppucci]

Originally Posted by zenmaster

So in an effort to "get to the top", I wrote an email to BMWNA directly and luckily was eventually forwarded to their "engine expert", the one and only Product and Technology Spokesperson (who holds an engineering degree) for BMW Group! But anyone in Customer Relations would presumably provide the same info, and would actually have been the appropriate channel. Keep in mind this is NOT the marketing dept whose material is being actively used as "proof" to support a closed deck - and that only through omission in certain markets' press releases?!

<omitted - some back and forth, regarding who to contact, regional marketing material differences, head gaskets, etc>


"... I am ... a customer in Atlanta trying to resolve an apparent discrepancy with this particular design feature of the N55B30T0 engine. All that I am really looking for is some authoritative verification that the BMW M2 and X4 M40i engine has, in fact, a closed-deck block. Perhaps I'm not going through the proper channels, but this is not something my dealer nor BMW Genius are able to answer at this time. Thank you for your help."

BMW Group's official response (provided just last month):

Quote:
Happy to help and have your business.

The starting point for the engine design was the N55. However, the engine has been heavily modified and carries a different suffix designation to the N55 in the M235i. The heavy modification include changes to the engine block, rotating assembly, and forced induction system.

The N55 in the BMW M2 and BMW X4 M40i xDrive are indeed closed deck. The head gasket is the same as it didn’t require any adaptations even if it is now a closed deck design.


Now I'm kind of wondering, what more do you want? The fact that this individual is the 1) BMW Group's spokesperson who would be an accountable mouthpiece and 2) an engineer has sealed the question for me. Why? One simply can't have those resources, those qualifications, that responsibility and that level of technical knowledge, experience and training and still provide a BS response. Facts are simply checked and assured at this level of business folks, esp with direct, clear questions and submitted in writing.

This is great information and potentially the definitive answer.

EDIT: I have been able to review information provided me by zenmaster via PM. This information comes from BMWNA personnel who are knowledgeable about this. While previously skeptical, I do believe this information to be the most definitive I have seen confirming closed deck modifications to the N5530T0 block!

Prior to seeing this I was going to suggest that perhaps one of our european fellow forum members could find someone, a worker, at the Steyr, Austria engine plant which manufactures the N55's, including the N55BT0, to comment?

[oldmanstyle]

Originally Posted by Artemis

According to the US version of the 1M Supplementary Owner's Manual, my former 1M featured a V8-engine. However, in real life, it didn't sound very V8.

[IMG]http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=647401&d=1329767686[IMG]

No word about a V8-engine in the European version of that manual. According to that manual, my 1M was in fact an M3. However, in real life, I failed to find an M3 badge on my 1M.

[IMG]http://www.1addicts.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=647402&d=1329767686[IMG]

So BMW making an obvious error in an owner's manual (obvious because the 1M was never advertised as having a V8) is the same thing as BMW making a false claim on their website?

The more reasonable assumption is that BMW is aware that they are advertising a closed deck block on the website. And given how easy it is to update a website, it follows that BMW would remove the advertisement if it was false.