[DivideBYZero]

With a clutch delay valve, auto blips, a hill hold function and auto rev in first, how manual is it, in reality?

/catamongstpigeons

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

Since 1993.. I've owned the following BMWs.

E30 M3 40K to 146k
E30 M3. 89k to 113k track car

E36 325ic- used 190-227k. new trans 207k
E46 325ic - 95k to 110k currently

E46 M3 - 79k to 145k

X1 - 30-50k currently
1M -zero - 30k currently

The M cars have all been manual and the non M cars are all automatics. Of all those vehicles I only replaced one automatic transmission. I've *never* replaced a BMW clutch for wear. Never nuked a transmission shifting it. Never even had a clutch master or slave cylinder fail.

All the M cars but the E46 M3 convertible have been autocrossed 10x a year and tracked multiple times for at least 5 years. All the cars have been daily drivers except the 1M and the E30 track car.

Unless you are Drag racing, slam shifting , completely ham fisted , or an all out idiot... I can't see how or why the clutch needs to be beefier than it is.

Automatics need more headroom because they have a lot more heat generated. BMW initially had some issues with the 135 DCT iirc and didn't offer it in the 1M because it needed more cooling. They added extra trans coolers for the new DCT models.

A heavier duty clutch will typically have a higher effort... however the M2 has a very light clutch effort ...this appears to be by design. I would presume that BMW didn't want to have a vehicle with a high clutch effort.


And finally.. on the subject of weight.. the DCT is alleged to be 30-35 kg..

however.. Car and Driver tested a US spec DCT and a manual M2 in two different tests..
I can only presume that all things are equal in their testing.. or otherwise why bother..

The M2 DCT weight was 3510 lbs and the M2 6MT weighed only 3415 lbs.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...ic-test-review

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...-valley-review



With independent measurement showing 95 lbs of difference vs a 30KG (approx. 66 lbs) spec sheet figure from BMW.. it is difficult for me to trust the manufacturer figures. Perhaps the 30KG figure is a dry weight figure and doesn't represent the additional fluids needed. ?

DCT max 82kg-/-44.5kg MT=37.5kg
Irl you say the difference is 95lbs(43.1kg)
So 5.6kg difference. Manufacturer specs vs real life . Not so much...
Which are probably the fluids and other components I guess..just like you..


Cheers
Robin

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

The way my DCT car shifts midcorner moist surface from 3rd/4rth is out of this world and it's like a rollercoaster feeling, no hesitation inbetween just GO....BAM I never experienced that in my former cars. Exciting(Understatement)


Cheers
Robin

DCT is faster, but more exciting than a manual? Never. Skillfully shifting (involving more than fingers) vs using a paddle shifter is more exciting? uhhhh

Cheers
Mark

[3Si]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

DCT is faster, but more exciting than a manual? Never. Skillfully shifting (involving more than fingers) vs using a paddle shifter is more exciting? uhhhh

Cheers
Mark

You can always use the stick if you want to involve more than your fingers.

[pissclams]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

DCT is faster, but more exciting than a manual? Never. Skillfully shifting (involving more than fingers) vs using a paddle shifter is more exciting? uhhhh

Cheers
Mark

Skillfully shifting...you must be one talented dude to be able to drive a manual transmission. Congrats on that!

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by pissclams

Skillfully shifting...you must be one talented dude to be able to drive a manual transmission. Congrats on that!

When did it ever not take skills to shift correctly on the track and on road? I didn't mention my talents once in the entire thread.

Nice try on the troll though, congratz!

[jdarwin]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

DCT is faster, but more exciting than a manual? Never. Skillfully shifting (involving more than fingers) vs using a paddle shifter is more exciting? uhhhh

Cheers
Mark

Skillful shifting in a 2017 M2? Please. I have a 4 speed 1976 2002. Now THAT'S a manual transmission. Oh, and no power steering either.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

When did it ever not take skills to shift correctly on the track and on road? I didn't mention my talents once in the entire thread.

Nice try on the troll though, congratz!

It probably didn't take skill when everyone used to drive stick. Or maybe everyone used to just have mad skillz, but now suddenly everyone is retarded except for a handful of American manual transmission drivers.

[R0ME0]

I've driven both (I personally own a 6MT). Two very different animals. Almost felt like two different cars to be honest. Can't say one is better than the other. I'm a manual guy myself and I can say the DCT is quite impressive. I can see why many opt for it. Just my 2 cents.

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by jdarwin

Skillful shifting in a 2017 M2? Please. I have a 4 speed 1976 2002. Now THAT'S a manual transmission. Oh, and no power steering either.

So DCT is harder to drive than 6MT? It also takes skills to read the context. Who mentioned an M2 MT vs Other MT's? Not I.

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by akkando

It probably didn't take skill when everyone used to drive stick. Or maybe everyone used to just have mad skillz, but now suddenly everyone is retarded except for a handful of American manual transmission drivers.

Your post doesn't make any sense.

[BruceM]

The M2 doesn't have a clutch delay valve.

[jdarwin]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

So DCT is harder to drive than 6MT? It also takes skills to read the context. Who mentioned an M2 MT vs Other MT's? Not I.

I'm not going to argue semantics - I grasped the context. Moving on.

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by jdarwin

I'm not going to argue semantics - I grasped the context. Moving on.

There is no need for an argument over semantics. This thread is about the M2 manual vs M2 DCT. Not M2 transmissions & Other models transmissions.

Clearly you didn't read the context.

So I'll answer for you, NO the M2 DCT does not take more skill than a 6MT on the M2.

[pissclams]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

There is no need for an argument over semantics. This thread is about the M2 manual vs M2 DCT. Not M2 transmissions & Other models transmissions.

Clearly you didn't read the context.

So I'll answer for you, NO the M2 DCT does not take more skill than a 6MT on the M2.

Pro tip: Neither transmission takes any discernible skill to operate effectively, especially for a community of auto enthusiasts which make up this website's forums.

[M2Nebula]

I started shifting with my foot to make it more challenging and reward myself with a banana when I nail it just right.

[3Si]

Originally Posted by pissclams

Pro tip: Neither transmission takes any discernible skill to operate effectively, especially for a community of auto enthusiasts which make up this website's forums.

This ^

Seriously, it doesn't take skill to step on a clutch and shift. What did take skill in the past was heel/toe and double clutch which I did with my previous cars. Really don't see how it takes more skill... Does it require more steps? Sure.

Takes a lot more skill to master the race line, hitting the apex, vision, trail brake... I've never heard an instructor say, you need to work on your shifting skill.

[M5XDRIVE]

Originally Posted by 3Si

This ^

Seriously, it doesn't take skill to step on a clutch and shift. What did take skill in the past was heel/toe and double clutch which I did with my previous cars. Really don't see how it takes more skill... Does it require more steps? Sure.

Takes a lot more skill to master the race line, hitting the apex, vision, trail brake... I've never heard an instructor say, you need to work on your shifting skill.

Out of context again. No one is talking about any other racing technique. We are talking about 2 transmissions. What takes more skill on the track.

I will explain in layman terms for the challenged;

Just because two things aren't in extreme difficulty, doesn't mean those two things share the same exact difficulty level.

No shifting the DCT is not harder than shifting a 6MT. Sorry.

[3Si]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

Out of context again. No one is talking about any other racing technique. We are talking about 2 transmissions. What takes more skill on the track.

I will explain in layman terms for the challenged;

Just because two things aren't in extreme difficulty, doesn't mean those two things share the same exact difficulty level.

No shifting the DCT is not harder than shifting a 6MT. Sorry.

Who said it was harder?

It may require more skill for someone who doesn't know how to drive a stick. But for majority of the posters here, it doesn't take more or less skill to drive stick on the track or as a daily. If I had to do a heel and toe/double clutch, then yes, it would take more skill.

[aerobat]

Originally Posted by mangofreshh

Out of context again. No one is talking about any other racing technique. We are talking about 2 transmissions. What takes more skill on the track.

I will explain in layman terms for the challenged;

Just because two things aren't in extreme difficulty, doesn't mean those two things share the same exact difficulty level.

No shifting the DCT is not harder than shifting a 6MT. Sorry.

For a person who have been driving MT all his life a DCT might be more difficult since you are not sure which gear you are in at all times when driving fast. That NEVER happens to me in a manual. If you have driven a MT in 35 years it is actually easier.
But, of course, if you take 2 newborn childs in each, the DCT would be easier.
(for M2 I prefer DCT... I think it is more fun)

[quikM2]

The amount of debates on this forum involving semantics is ridiculous...

Is it 'harder', does it require more 'skill', is it more 'difficult'

First guy - Yes it's harder but you don't need more skill

Second guy - Oh come on man its not harder or more difficult but does require you to be more skillful...

You guys are killing me, you know who you are..

[pmilani]

Originally Posted by aerobat

For a person who have been driving MT all his life a DCT might be more difficult since you are not sure which gear you are in at all times when driving fast. That NEVER happens to me in a manual.

Had the same problem for quite a while. Also hate the gear change suggestion, making it harder to read at a glance when going fast.