[quikM2]

Just critics being critics, they say things for attention. Can't say every car is awesome as that's boring. make a big deal about the 2 degree angle on the seat, complain about the rev matching like its actually bad, say classic lines like steering is dead and feedback is squirmy. cliche and nonsense strewn together eloquently keep a writing critic his job.. Say something inflammatory that people flip out about or say its great in one review and then bash it the next. we are talking about it arn't we? mission accomplished.

to put it fifth out of 6th is pure nonsense though. To compare it against the boxster S isn't fair. imo the article makes no sense.

[homerdog]

Who cares what they - or anybody else - think? I'm happy with my choice and I'm the only one that counts!

[BruceM]

I would have zero problem with rev matching if there were an on/off button.

And I still don't get why they link turning it off with no stability control at all.

But I'm doing my best to ignore it and heel/toe myself as usual. It's amazing how good I am at it now, though

[gtr]

Performance car is about speed. Driver's car is about feel. This article is crap and I can only comment on cars I've driven which is the 718, Focus RS, M2, and FRS. Out of these car the 718 will destroy everything in terms of feel and speed. It is the better FRS. However in terms of steering slop, response and the way the car feels I would rank,

1. 718
2. M2
3. FRS
4. Focus RS

[3Si]

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/fiat/...364E59ABE7CB4C

[paradoxical3]

I have slowly realized that outside of a few journalists with actual racing credentials, car reviewers are entertainers first and drivers second. As I have gotten the chance to meet some in person and drive on track and in the car with them, I realized that some of them aren't very good drivers.

Here is a prime example of why this is so stupid:

The M2 is confident and planted when driving at 80 percent of its staggering levels of ability—and that’s the hardest you should be pushing any car on public roads.

And then...

Cars in this test that could easily keep up with the BMW M2 on a winding canyon road include the Toyota 86, the Fiat Spider, and the V-6 Camaro. The car that can leave it for dead: the 718 Boxster. Ask me how I know.

Oh, so you're pushing 10/10ths on a public road? I thought we were only driving 8/10ths? I've been on many "spirited cruises" with car enthusiasts in Z06s and such, and sometimes I've been in a rental Altima. I kept up just fine. Why? Because we are on public roads and you can't drive a car 10/10ths on one. It's such a juvenile statement to compare car performance based on "who could keep up on a back road." Hit the track please.

The undefeatable rev-matching downshifts also annoyed all of us. We know how to drive stick shift, BMW. We don’t need your help.

If you're such a good driver, turn off DSC and rev match to your heart's content. Especially if you're not pushing 10/10ths, it's dry out, and you're on a public road.

95% of automotive journalists need to grow a pair of balls. These are the same guys that would criticize the Viper for being harsh around town.

With the second-best lap time—thanks to its straight-line speed—the M2 might have taken it to the Porsche were it not for its struggles in Turns 6 and 7. Seriously slow shifts at higher speeds were a bummer.

This is really stupid, the Boxter S is also faster in a straight line than the M2.

Basically, these journalists have no idea what they are talking about. Drive the cars yourself and make your own decision.

[BruceM]

I STILL don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare a purpose-built two seater sports car to a 4 seat "all rounder" that costs $15 grand less comparably equipped. Their markets overlap, perhaps, but they are not really that similar.

I didn't consider the 718 S because I already HAVE a purpose built two seat Porsche for tracking. It fulfills a different role. That, and I'm not going to pick a four over a six, especially when the same car came in a six a year or so ago. I did flirt with the idea of a 2014 Cayman S, but, again, that was after umpteen months on M2 lists with no car, and I reluctantly realized I was just being impatient.

[ilovewagons]

Originally Posted by Transfer

I just do not see how the Fiata could possibly keep up with an M2 on the back roads.

This is because it can't. I drive many, many twisty back roads and my M2 is my daily driver. I am yet to encounter an BRZ/86 that can keep up, or an mx-5. People like to say this about these cars, that they can keep up in the 'real world'. It's bullshit. In real life, no one is pushing ten tenths. Even more so than on track, the faster car will always be the one with assloads of power and the grip to put it down. So just like I can't keep up with an RS3 or A45 without getting to the point of reckless driving, an 86 or mx-5 will only be able to keep up with me in traffic.

Steering wise, only Porsche sell a better EPS system.

[MerlinPurple]

TEASER: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro LT 1LE vs. 2017 BMW M2 - Head 2 Head Ep. 86

Looks like Jason's back in an M2!

Will he flip flop again?

Available on MT demand, otherwise the rest of us have to wait a few weeks.

[MayorAdamWest]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I STILL don't think it makes a lot of sense to compare a purpose-built two seater sports car to a 4 seat "all rounder" that costs $15 grand less comparably equipped. Their markets overlap, perhaps, but they are not really that similar.

I didn't consider the 718 S because I already HAVE a purpose built two seat Porsche for tracking. It fulfills a different role. That, and I'm not going to pick a four over a six, especially when the same car came in a six a year or so ago. I did flirt with the idea of a 2014 Cayman S, but, again, that was after umpteen months on M2 lists with no car, and I reluctantly realized I was just being impatient.

I actually cross shopped the both, having come from a 991 GT3. For me, it came down to cost and the lack of a 718 GT4 with PDK. There isn't even a 718 GTS available yet. Count me now in the crowd of people that will only consider GT# Porsche sports cars. Sold my GT3 with 12k miles for only 8% off MSRP and honesty it's the best car I've ever driven. Miss it every day! I'll definitely be a 718 GT4 buyer. For now, though, it wasn't worth the extra 30k for a loaded 718S.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by MerlinPurple

TEASER: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro LT 1LE vs. 2017 BMW M2 - Head 2 Head Ep. 86

Looks like Jason's back in an M2!

Will he flip flop again?

Available on MT demand, otherwise the rest of us have to wait a few weeks.

Lieberman belongs in a traveling circus.

[ClothSeats]

In a reversal of the group test, the M2 won.. I would take it over the V6 Camaro too tbh. Doubt anyone cross shops them.

[IS+1]

Originally Posted by MerlinPurple

TEASER: 2017 Chevrolet Camaro LT 1LE vs. 2017 BMW M2 - Head 2 Head Ep. 86

Looks like Jason's back in an M2!

Will he flip flop again?

Surprise surprise, the answer is yes - but this time we agree with him so it's all good!

[mitoda]

This list doesn't make much sense to me . Chris Harris mentioned he couldn't understand how "Fiat made the abarth 124 feel so dull" http://www.topgear.com/videos/chris-...-red-bull-ring 3:20 minute marker and you'd be better on a regular Miata. I rented a Camaro for the weekend, although I was pleasantly surprised, it was no where near my M2 in terms of performance and fun.
I wonder if there is stipend bias here.

[M2PDX]

Now in my 6th BMW, I think this entire negative review boils down to one simple problem, and it's a problem BMW has created for itself: awful electric steering.

BMW was for years known for not only great handling, but magical steering that gave you an instantaneous and direct connection to the road. Up through my Ms and even m 335iS, hydraulic steering did the job just fine.

But suddenly, some "genius" engineering group decided that numb, soul-less electric steering was worth it because it "saves 1/4 mile per gallon of gasoline."

I love my M3. I hate its steering. I've driven my friend's M2, and it feels only marginally better. Bad steering makes cars feel heavier, disconnected, and unresponsive. Electric steering gives very little feedback about what's actually happening with the contact patch between the tire and road.

Maybe it's because at my age, I've spend a lifetime driving hydraulically steered vehicles, but let's be honest: Electric steering hasn't improved vehicle feel, or handling, or feedback. My 1977 VW Rabbit had a better steering rack and feel than modern BMWs.

I may be a ludite, but WHY IN HEAVEN'S NAME CAN'T BMW EITHER FIX THE DAMN SYSTEM OR JUST PUT HYDRAULIC UNITS IN THE M CARS??????

Every single review of the M3/4 and M2 has mentioned this (and don't even start adding up all the reviews that have absolutely panned the base 3 series, numb 5 and 6 series, etc.).

Wake up BMW!

[Verdi]

It isn't at all negative.

“This car is hands down the best BMW made in at least five years, probably more. It’s the first M car in a long time to actually live up to the Ultimate Driving Machine tagline,” features editor Christian Seabaugh says.

Others in our test group mirrored the sentiment. Which is why it stunned, irked, and bemused me that the panel voted the Bimmer fifth out of six entries.

I would reach for the M2 keys before any others in this pack. It has everything a driver wants: forceful power, reassuring handling, a smooth-enough ride, fantastic seats, interior refinement galore, and intuitive infotainment.

Road test editor Chris Walton says the M2 has one of the sweetest engines around and torque available everywhere. There is a mesa of power through the middle gears, so you don’t have to downshift to get a surge of acceleration.

The M2 was the second-quickest car in Randy Pobst’s race around the Streets of Willow. Even at its wallet-straining 54 large, the Bimmer deserves better than finishing second to last. I voted it first, and if I were to impose an executive (editor) order, that’s where it would have stayed. – Mark Rechtin"


I'd say that they loved the car but had to make some weird choices when voting to get some attention. Like "wow, the Abarth won!!!"

It's like the test where the 228i coupe won as best driving BMW over 1M, M2, M4 and some other M cars. It's just to make a point and surprise the readers.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Mustangquadcam

Now in my 6th BMW, I think this entire negative review boils down to one simple problem, and it's a problem BMW has created for itself: awful electric steering.

BMW was for years known for not only great handling, but magical steering that gave you an instantaneous and direct connection to the road. Up through my Ms and even m 335iS, hydraulic steering did the job just fine.

But suddenly, some "genius" engineering group decided that numb, soul-less electric steering was worth it because it "saves 1/4 mile per gallon of gasoline."

I love my M3. I hate its steering. I've driven my friend's M2, and it feels only marginally better. Bad steering makes cars feel heavier, disconnected, and unresponsive. Electric steering gives very little feedback about what's actually happening with the contact patch between the tire and road.

Maybe it's because at my age, I've spend a lifetime driving hydraulically steered vehicles, but let's be honest: Electric steering hasn't improved vehicle feel, or handling, or feedback. My 1977 VW Rabbit had a better steering rack and feel than modern BMWs.

I may be a ludite, but WHY IN HEAVEN'S NAME CAN'T BMW EITHER FIX THE DAMN SYSTEM OR JUST PUT HYDRAULIC UNITS IN THE M CARS??????

Every single review of the M3/4 and M2 has mentioned this (and don't even start adding up all the reviews that have absolutely panned the base 3 series, numb 5 and 6 series, etc.).

Wake up BMW!

The M2s steering is less numb than the M3/M4, from my drives. Not great, but not awful. Also, though, it is noticeably worse than my old E36 M3 or my 930. I can live with it. It's accurate at least.

It does seem kind of weird that for what seems like negligible mileage improvement BMW risks the driving feel that is central to its core mission. Maybe its core mission is different now. The M2 suggests that it still beats in some hearts in Munich.

[paradoxical3]

BMW's core mission is very clearly stated: efficient dynamics. That is why there is a MPG effeciency gauge in the M2 instead of an oil temp gauge. They are transitioning from a performance company to an efficiency company. That sticker is on every car they sell and on every page of their websites.

Contrast that with Chevy, who drops a 650hp engine into their affordable Camaro platform, and gives you adjustable camber plates, spool-valve coilovers, and functional aero from the factory. With 305/325 tires, and a price under $70k. With no allocation bullshit.

The really funny thing is the Chevy gets the same MPG as the M2 anyway. Lol. BMW needs to step it up.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

BMW's core mission is very clearly stated: efficient dynamics. That is why there is a MPG effeciency gauge in the M2 instead of an oil temp gauge. They are transitioning from a performance company to an efficiency company. That sticker is on every car they sell and on every page of their websites.

Contrast that with Chevy, who drops a 650hp engine into their affordable Camaro platform, and gives you adjustable camber plates, spool-valve coilovers, and functional aero from the factory. With 305/325 tires, and a price under $70k. With no allocation bullshit.

The really funny thing is the Chevy gets the same MPG as the M2 anyway. Lol. BMW needs to step it up.

Buy a Chevy then and stop complaining.

[paradoxical3]

Originally Posted by Verdi

Buy a Chevy then and stop complaining.

If the 1LE ZL1 was available a year ago, I would have. The M2 is a better car for around town, but I am dropping $25k in modifications into the M2 and it will still be slower than a stock ZL1 around a track.

Very disappointing to be honest. BMW is not really a performance brand anymore. Here is a list of companies for which their top-tier car is faster around a track than BMW's:

Lexus
Mercedes
Audi
Alfa Romeo

In fact, BMW's fastest performance car is the slowest out of all the mainstream luxury manufacturer's. How do you reconcile that with the ethos of the "Ultimate Driving Machine?"

My Volkswagen Golf R has built in oil temp, coolant temp, and even a lap timer. But hey, you can see your current MPG in your BMW!

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by BruceM

The M2s steering is less numb than the M3/M4, from my drives. Not great, but not awful. Also, though, it is noticeably worse than my old E36 M3 or my 930. I can live with it. It's accurate at least.

It does seem kind of weird that for what seems like negligible mileage improvement BMW risks the driving feel that is central to its core mission. Maybe its core mission is different now. The M2 suggests that it still beats in some hearts in Munich.

I think they would have fitted hydraulic steering if they could. I don't think there's room for it in the current 2er and 3er platform.

[Verdi]

Originally Posted by paradoxical3

If the 1LE ZL1 was available a year ago, I would have. The M2 is a better car for around town, but I am dropping $25k in modifications into the M2 and it will still be slower than a stock ZL1 around a track.

Very disappointing to be honest. BMW is not really a performance brand anymore. Here is a list of companies for which their top-tier car is faster around a track than BMW's:

Lexus
Mercedes
Audi
Alfa Romeo

In fact, BMW's fastest performance car is the slowest out of all the mainstream luxury manufacturer's. How do you reconcile that with the ethos of the "Ultimate Driving Machine?"

My Volkswagen Golf R has built in oil temp, coolant temp, and even a lap timer. But hey, you can see your current MPG in your BMW!

You can have a lap timer in your M2 as well you know.

Which cars are you comparing? The M4 GTS (7.27.88) is only slower than the very pricy Mercedes SLS Black Series (7.26.40) around the nordschleife. But ok. Let's exclude the special versions... (ie not GTS, no Black Series and no other special limited version...)

Then BMW have these on the top 100 list:

85. BMW M4 7:52.00
96. BMW M5 7.55.00

(The M2 is 7.58.00 but rumour has it that it's been driven faster than that. And this modded M2 did it in 7.22.00 https://www.autoevolution.com/news/t...te-109989.html which is quite a bit faster than the Chevy at 7.29.00)

Mercedes has got NO ONE! No, the C63 didn't make the list. The M4 did.

Audi:
64. Audi R8 V10 7.44.00

Lexus:
50. Lexus LF-A 7.38.00

Alfa:
52. Alfa Romeo Giulia Quadrifoglio 7.39.00


The R8 V10 and the LF-A are not comparable to the M4 and M5. They are supercars and much more expensive.

The ONLY car that stands out here is the magnificent Quadrifoglio. But it's an Alfa and will probably break down a lot.


The ZL1 is indeed very fast but it isn't my cup of tea. I think it's vulgar.