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      12-13-2017, 09:55 PM   #133
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Well...guess I'll get a 911T.
At least Porsche knows there's a demand for raw, MT cars.
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      12-14-2017, 09:00 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Yep, especially in the corners. I was saying the same thing earlier in the thread.

Also, it’s a short term party trick. Two or three times only and then you have to plug the thing in. Not super cool in that way.
Very short term. it's trick is actually just 0-30. Look at the 30-60 times and a lot of cars are it's match (m2/m3/m4). Once people start to realize that then it's just the INSANE 0-30 that's the entire game. My brother owns a p100d and it is a fun trick, I've driven it. The instant torque at any speed can be shocking to passengers too. But in corners....
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      12-14-2017, 01:50 PM   #135
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Audiophile spoken here.
Here too. Jeff Rowland pre amp and amps.
Getting bored with the lack of info we have. And it's cold in the north east.
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      12-14-2017, 01:52 PM   #136
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Yery short term. it's trick is actually just 0-30. Look at the 30-60 times and a lot of cars are it's match (m2/m3/m4). Once people start to realize that then it's just the INSANE 0-30 that's the entire game. My brother owns a p100d and it is a fun trick, I've driven it. The instant torque at any speed can be shocking to passengers too. But in corners....
I think a 911 turbo offers the same. 0-60 in 3 sec is to be experienced. But the Porsche can do it over and over.
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      12-14-2017, 01:52 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Yep, especially in the corners. I was saying the same thing earlier in the thread.

Also, it’s a short term party trick. Two or three times only and then you have to plug the thing in. Not super cool in that way.
I've seen both an original Tesla Roadster on track and several I8 as well. I have heard from owners that indeed, it's either switch to petrol for the drive home ( for example in an i8) or plug it in for 2 hours before you head home from the track/twisties.. etc.. A clear negative.. On the plus side, the E-fiil up only costs about $5 vs burning 5-10 gallons of fuel.
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      12-15-2017, 07:49 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
I've seen both an original Tesla Roadster on track and several I8 as well. I have heard from owners that indeed, it's either switch to petrol for the drive home ( for example in an i8) or plug it in for 2 hours before you head home from the track/twisties.. etc.. A clear negative.. On the plus side, the E-fiil up only costs about $5 vs burning 5-10 gallons of fuel.
Yeah and I can’t see many trailering their Tesla to the track to avoid that sort of problem. that’s not the type of car you’d expect to see coming out of a trailer.
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      12-15-2017, 10:28 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Dee Pee View Post
Well...guess I'll get a 911T.
At least Porsche knows there's a demand for raw, MT cars.
A SOLID plan - you may never go back to BMW.

I have owned 9 BMWs and I am 45 years old. I was going for the M2 CSL too (1st on the list at my dealer) thinking that BMW was finally figuring out how to get M cars back to light "basic," insane handling M cars, especially for the folks like those enthusiasts and "brand ambassadors" on this website. Nope, let's build another M5 variant . . . a hybrid no less. "We at BMW will make more money doing that . . . "

I am now officially out of this game of whomever sells more cars to the world wins. Capitalism is great and I love it as there is no better system IMHO, but stock price and shareholders suck sometimes and those folks are clearly in charge at BMW; a real downer. I know the GTS sales issues had some effect on this decision but when you build a $135,000 M4 to compete with P cars it better be mega and really compete. I love the M4 GTS but the raw performance numbers do not justify the price. I digress.

I almost think that not building the M2 CSL now is BMW's official admission that it can't stack up against what will be its obvious competitor - the new P GT4 coming soon!

Just depressing - I want BMW making serious M cars that rival the P competition. They have truly given up.
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      12-15-2017, 11:16 AM   #140
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A SOLID plan - you may never go back to BMW.

I have owned 9 BMWs and I am 45 years old. I was going for the M2 CSL too (1st on the list at my dealer) thinking that BMW was finally figuring out how to get M cars back to light "basic," insane handling M cars, especially for the folks like those enthusiasts and "brand ambassadors" on this website. Nope, let's build another M5 variant . . . a hybrid no less. "We at BMW will make more money doing that . . . "

I am now officially out of this game of whomever sells more cars to the world wins. Capitalism is great and I love it as there is no better system IMHO, but stock price and shareholders suck sometimes and those folks are clearly in charge at BMW; a real downer. I know the GTS sales issues had some effect on this decision but when you build a $135,000 M4 to compete with P cars it better be mega and really compete. I love the M4 GTS but the raw performance numbers do not justify the price. I digress.

I almost think that not building the M2 CSL now is BMW's official admission that it can't stack up against what will be its obvious competitor - the new P GT4 coming soon!

Just depressing - I want BMW making serious M cars that rival the P competition. They have truly given up.
Agreed. 2 years in my 981 CS showed me a whole other world. I needed more utility so I came back to M and got an F80. It’s very very nice, and does a lot of things well. But I don’t Drive it just for the sake of driving. It’s a utilitarian effort (albeit a very fast one) and it’s just not in the same league.

My dad had a 2007 M coupe and we bought that car instead of the 987 CS. that thing was magical and special. Just not the case anymore.
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      12-15-2017, 11:16 AM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Pee View Post
Well...guess I'll get a 911T.
At least Porsche knows there's a demand for raw, MT cars.
A SOLID plan - you may never go back to BMW.

I have owned 9 BMWs and I am 45 years old. I was going for the M2 CSL too (1st on the list at my dealer) thinking that BMW was finally figuring out how to get M cars back to light "basic," insane handling M cars, especially for the folks like those enthusiasts and "brand ambassadors" on this website. Nope, let's build another M5 variant . . . a hybrid no less. "We at BMW will make more money doing that . . . "

I am now officially out of this game of whomever sells more cars to the world wins. Capitalism is great and I love it as there is no better system IMHO, but stock price and shareholders suck sometimes and those folks are clearly in charge at BMW; a real downer. I know the GTS sales issues had some effect on this decision but when you build a $135,000 M4 to compete with P cars it better be mega and really compete. I love the M4 GTS but the raw performance numbers do not justify the price. I digress.

I almost think that not building the M2 CSL now is BMW's official admission that it can't stack up against what will be its obvious competitor - the new P GT4 coming soon!

Just depressing - I want BMW making serious M cars that rival the P competition. They have truly given up.
As you point out it's a public company with shareholder interests in mind. As such they'll sell a hell of a lot more M5 hybrids than bespoke driver oriented M cars. All companies seek to grow their share price and this is how BMW does it. Obviously they see no reason for a halo car either. Now Porsche can get away with it since their investor base is spread wide thanks to VW.
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      12-15-2017, 11:23 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by stefan View Post
As you point out it's a public company with shareholder interests in mind. As such they'll sell a hell of a lot more M5 hybrids than bespoke driver oriented M cars. All companies seek to grow their share price and this is how BMW does it. Obviously they see no reason for a halo car either. Now Porsche can get away with it since their investor base is spread wide thanks to VW.
See I’m not sure I agree - I think Porsche is just more committed to performance oriented vehicles. They know that SUV and luxury sedans make then boocoo money...but they use the profits to make badass Caymans, Boxsters, and 911s. And their GT level cars are in classes of their own up to super car performance and cost levels. BMW could do that, but they won’t.

Quantity over quality these days. That’s just how it is.
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      12-15-2017, 01:35 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vintage View Post
I know the GTS sales issues had some effect on this decision but when you build a $135,000 M4 to compete with P cars it better be mega and really compete. I love the M4 GTS but the raw performance numbers do not justify the price. I digress.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
See I’m not sure I agree - I think Porsche is just more committed to performance oriented vehicles. They know that SUV and luxury sedans make then boocoo money...but they use the profits to make badass Caymans, Boxsters, and 911s. And their GT level cars are in classes of their own up to super car performance and cost levels. BMW could do that, but they won’t.
Quantity over quality these days. That’s just how it is.
Sad if the M4 GTS 'experience' would have influenced the M2 CSL project in an adverse way.

Not all dealers and speculators who purchased an M4 GTS managed to sell the cars. Looks like BMW has 'boxed above its weight' with the ambitious M4 GTS price-tag. Brand loyalty has its limits - for that money customers also have a chat with a Porsche dealer. And then there's also the nervous road behavior in the wet that didn't help either promoting the M4 GTS.

M4 GTS in EVO Car Of The Year 2016:
"I turn the wipers from frisky to frantic, transfer control of the DCT to the paddles and narrow my focus on the crimson flare of brake lights ahead barely penetrating the spray but almost semaphore active. The ease with which the M2 is keeping up - indeed, is all over - the car in front, without asking much from me, is a surprise. I'll reveal what those flashing tail lights belong to in a moment, but the first intriguing insight of the day is starting to form.
If there wasn't much to get worked up about climbing into the M2 after breakfast - the minimally massaged generic 2-series interior is comfortable,
well-designed, nicely made and easy to see out of - it's starting to work a little magic now, though somewhat against type. With its well documented love of drifting locked out by the traction and stability electronics and my desire not to drop it before a single photo has been taken, a degree of dimensionality and the more nuanced aspects of its chassis' dynamic make-up have dropped away. But not its appetite for speed across the ground, even in these filthy conditions. This will become a recurring theme throughout eCoty 2016, but the bolshie wunderkind from M makes it clear from the outset that it won't be pushed around by the big hitters. Its default position is dogged tenacity, a distillation of grip and efficient use of available grunt that remains effective come what may.
When we park up, a slightly fazed Adam Towler steps out of the M4 GTS that the M2 has just kept such close company with. He gets to the point: 'I genuinely thought the GTS wanted to deposit me in the hedge. The combination of wet roads, dry-biased tyres, that chassis with very quick steering, and the huge initial torque delivery of the engine made it almost undriveable at times, and while scary can be fun, this was just too scary.' Given the quasi-race car setup of the GTS, it would be overstating it to call this a bombshell, but it seems that on a far from smooth and evenly cambered road in slippery conditions, the on-paper £76k and 128bhp gap between the M Division's A game and its entry-level representative can be ripped up. Can't say the M2 was fun, much less a finely layered feast for the senses, but driven purely to exploit its seemingly inexhaustible ability to scavenge grip without obviously favouring the purchase of either end, and to mine the last ounce of effort from its brawny but curiously atonal motor, well, it worked a treat."
"A perfect illustration of how big a difference it can make driving a car on domestic roads in Blighty weather is made by the BMW M4 GTS. As you'll see in the final scores, this is a car that widely split opinion. Many of us hadn't driven the car before, but Henry and Dan had both experienced it on smooth and fast Iberian roads that were baked crisp by hot sun. Both came back in love with the car. My first drive in the GTS was along a wet, undulating, twisty, crusty and very challenging B-road. Turning off the traction control would have resulted in disaster and a terribly embarrassing phone call to BMW. The car, so magnificent on dry, smooth roads, was a liability or these ones."
M4 GTS and TopGear:
"And in the wet?
Bloody liability. No rear end traction whatsoever. The tyres don’t help, but the big-torque, rapid delivery engine and low-grip-commitment rear axle are a spiteful pairing. You need to be properly on your game if you’re to disable the stability control, which you sort of need to, because even if placed in M Dynamic mode, it’s a bit too keen to get involved, and it does so rather abruptly. I don’t think I’ve ever driven a car with a bigger discrepancy between dry and wet weather behavior.
Bottom line: it’s nearly the same money as a Porsche GT3 RS. Which would you have?
The Porsche every single time, but you’re talking the wrong rival. If Merc does a Black Series C63 Coupe, or even GT Coupe, that’s where this sits. It’s a burlier car than the Porsche. That’s a surgical instrument, a car for picking apart apexes (apices?), this is more of the just-wanna-have-a-good-time type machine."
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      12-15-2017, 04:02 PM   #144
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That's why I recently dumped the M2 DCT and went for Cayman GT4 its more expensive, and not as practical but it's a car that is so connected with you it's hard to explain. BMW really need to pull their socks up
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      12-16-2017, 07:28 AM   #145
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That's why I recently dumped the M2 DCT and went for Cayman GT4 its more expensive, and not as practical but it's a car that is so connected with you it's hard to explain. BMW really need to pull their socks up
And to that point, Porsche has an offering at almost all price points. They are like crack and once you begin, you will not stop the insatiable need to climb one rung higher. I have only just gotten mine, but am already thinking about better variants. Bmw will keep me for the people-mover duty, but not for any "ultimate driving machine". Actually, possibly not even for that reason, we drove few other SUVs recently and wouldn't mind a change there either. Sad state around here.
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      12-16-2017, 09:12 AM   #146
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Glad you're enjoying the GT4.

I mailed every Porsche dealer in the UK on Thursday evening about the upcoming GT4 and spent most of Friday speaking with dealers to see if they could get me on a list. The news isn't good. Not having a Porsche 'buying history' means they see me as a speculator so I'm highly unlikely to be given an allocation. I did tell them I'd tick pretty much every available option too. I'll have to take it on the chin in 2019 and pay a premium to a speculator and hope they've ordered one in Riviera Blue with CCBs and bucket seats. If BMW don't pull their fingers out more enthusiasts will be doing the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiysersosae View Post
That's why I recently dumped the M2 DCT and went for Cayman GT4 its more expensive, and not as practical but it's a car that is so connected with you it's hard to explain. BMW really need to pull their socks up
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      12-16-2017, 09:38 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by ACZakka325i View Post
And to that point, Porsche has an offering at almost all price points. They are like crack and once you begin, you will not stop the insatiable need to climb one rung higher. I have only just gotten mine, but am already thinking about better variants. Bmw will keep me for the people-mover duty, but not for any "ultimate driving machine". Actually, possibly not even for that reason, we drove few other SUVs recently and wouldn't mind a change there either. Sad state around here.
True - if you're only talking about all price points well north of an M2! A stripper base Cayman starts about where an M2 w/Exec Pkg leaves off.
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      12-16-2017, 04:17 PM   #148
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The Porsche 911 and Cayman are designed as a sports car from the ground up. BMW M models are saddled with the limitations of being a sports car that is derived from a luxury coupe/sedan core.
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      12-16-2017, 05:49 PM   #149
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The Porsche 911 and Cayman are designed as a sports car from the ground up. BMW M models are saddled with the limitations of being a sports car that is derived from a luxury coupe/sedan core.
BMW has made a handful of "sports cars" during their history, if that. The M1, M-Coupe (Z3M) would be a couple of such examples. What BMW used to excel at was making "sports sedans/coupes," which were never intended as track cars, per se, but rather as a different class of vehicle with some of the attributes of a sports car and being hugely more practical. This history started with such (underpowered by today's standards) vehicles as the 1500, 1600, 2000, 2002, progressing through the early 3-Series, the Bavaria, etc.

Unfortunately, BMW has basically jettisoned that history in the hopes of expanding their customer base. They have obviously succeeded and are now one of the leading car manufacturers in the world, at least on a volume basis.

The problem isn't that a BMW isn't a Porsche; it never was and never was intended to be. The problem is that a BMW is no longer a BMW, or an "Ultimate Driving Machine" in very many senses of the word.
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      12-16-2017, 06:10 PM   #150
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Truth!

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Originally Posted by champignon View Post
BMW has made a handful of "sports cars" during their history, if that. The M1, M-Coupe (Z3M) would be a couple of such examples. What BMW used to excel at was making "sports sedans/coupes," which were never intended as track cars, per se, but rather as a different class of vehicle with some of the attributes of a sports car and being hugely more practical. This history started with such (underpowered by today's standards) vehicles as the 1500, 1600, 2000, 2002, progressing through the early 3-Series, the Bavaria, etc.

Unfortunately, BMW has basically jettisoned that history in the hopes of expanding their customer base. They have obviously succeeded and are now one of the leading car manufacturers in the world, at least on a volume basis.

The problem isn't that a BMW isn't a Porsche; it never was and never was intended to be. The problem is that a BMW is no longer a BMW, or an "Ultimate Driving Machine" in very many senses of the word.
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      12-16-2017, 06:20 PM   #151
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Truth!
I own a Porsche, a 2003, 996-911 TT. It's a fabulous car, but I don't really want to be in it for long periods of time since it isn't practical and at some point the novelty wears off. A BMW sports sedan/coupe should be something that's a lot of fun to drive, that is connected to the road, but at the same time is a car you can take to Costco, or running other errands, or transporting a couple of other people somewhere in the normal course of your existence. I can do that to some extent with the Porsche, but I really have to make some serious compromises and design my trips accordingly.

BMW doesn't need to make cars that are fun to drive anymore; they can get by on their reputation as a luxury car maker and compete for that market with the likes of Lexus, and Infinity, and Mercedes, which is coincidentally what they are doing.

I also don't need to buy one, it's a free country/world (or most of it).
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      12-16-2017, 06:32 PM   #152
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The problem isn't that a BMW isn't a Porsche; it never was and never was intended to be.
Of course. That was the premise of my post, which was made in response to all the comparisons to Porsche ITT.
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      12-16-2017, 11:09 PM   #153
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Glad you're enjoying the GT4.

I mailed every Porsche dealer in the UK on Thursday evening about the upcoming GT4 and spent most of Friday speaking with dealers to see if they could get me on a list. The news isn't good. Not having a Porsche 'buying history' means they see me as a speculator so I'm highly unlikely to be given an allocation. I did tell them I'd tick pretty much every available option too. I'll have to take it on the chin in 2019 and pay a premium to a speculator and hope they've ordered one in Riviera Blue with CCBs and bucket seats. If BMW don't pull their fingers out more enthusiasts will be doing the same.
Can you put down a sizable deposit if you're really serious to get on the list?
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      12-16-2017, 11:20 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by champignon View Post
A BMW sports sedan/coupe should be something that's a lot of fun to drive, that is connected to the road, but at the same time is a car you can take to Costco, or running other errands, or transporting a couple of other people somewhere in the normal course of your existence.
This is what attracted me to an M car initially. I didn't know anything about cars. I thought there were normal cars, normal trucks, little cars like a miata, and then expensive sports cars. Then back in 2002 I got in my bosses' e36 m3 coupe for a ride. I was just blown away by it, I was asking him what is this thing? That's when I found out there was a car that looked more or less like a normal car, but was also fast and aggressive, but usable as a regular car, but much more raw and fun. That's when I became interested in sporty cars, M cars specifically.

A regular car seemed like an appliance. A sports car seemed too expensive, too much trouble, and not practical every day.
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