[TMR013]

Can't believe you guys are all worked up over a C&D list.

[Bt12]

Ditto

[bobert]

Originally Posted by TMR013

Can't believe you guys are all worked up over a C&D list.

Considering where this thread is taking place, you can't be too surprised.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by nachob

Amen! CD is the most driver focused of all the car magazines and pretty much I fit with their thinking. What I appreciate about your comment is that bunch of BMW guys just say CD is anti BMW or they are just ludites instead of saying like you, what is BMW doing wrong. A lot of BMW apologists say that CD is anti BMW, but they had a 3 series for over 20 years consecutively! What has happened with BMW is that they tilt away from driver focus to tech and other things. Their steering was usually one of the most communicative, now it is getting better but no longer a leader. They put a giant display on top of the dash in line of site. They drop the temp gauge for glowing display or econometer or whatever they do. Their instruments which used to be clear and effective get trendy, blingy and hard to see. Their interior lighting in E46 was all business good-for-night-vision red. Now it's a Christmas tree. I could go on all night, but the point is that the sum of all of these tiny pecadillos add up to where really BMW is not really trying to build the ultimate driving machine anymore. They have realized that guys CD and their fans is a small shrinking group and the masses don't care as much as long as they sell a ton of cars and they are doing that. So BMW is smart at that. There is no money in building the ultimate driving machine when everyone wants a 5000lb arcade on wheels.

Here are my thoughts on what would've made the M2 on the top 10 list:
Don't argue individual things, what I am saying is that the sum of all of these little slants away from pure driving dynamics add up!

1. No fake sound....period. The car sounds amazing outside, why sully it with fake cabin sound. At least allow to easily turn it off without coding.
2. Put a temp gauge with clear, purposeful white on black instruments....NOTE, the new cluster looks better, just needs a temp gauge
3. Put a button to disable auto blip in all mode. CD guys know how to do it already and don't want it.
4. Offer lighter manual seats in M cloth and Alcantara
5. Improve the steering feedback or put a hydraulic rack just for M cars
6. Make it lighter. It should not have been heavier than outgoing 1 series!
7. Offer no iDrive version or at least put the display lower in the middle like Cayman or GTI. I just bought a MK7 GTI for wife and display is great and doesn't distract like BMWs current top-of-dash offering.
8. Offer a stripper version which is lighter and costs less. CD always care of fun per dollar. The stripper version keeps the "purists" happy and the rest can order BLoaded cars.
9. Put a dipstick and wheel well for a spare tire. CD people like to head off to distant locations and long road trips where a dipstick and spare tire are handy.

These are relatively easy things to do. I can almost guarantee that if BMW
1-8, the M2 would be on the list.

One final thought for you guys to cheer you up....it is still the best drivers car BMW makes currently, so Kudos to you guys for getting one.

Best wishes

One of the best posts I have read in a long time. Could not agree more. Well said.

I'm a LOOOONG time 3 series BMW owner and have "grown up" with these cars. My behavior as a consumer is that I seek the "absolute". Meaning, I got to be convinced that what I am buying is the best thing for the money. The fact that the 3 series was on the 10 best list for 20 years fit that criteria, and confirmed that I bought the right car. To clarify, I did not go out and buy it just because CD said so. It kind of happened the other way around, because I was always a Bimmer enthusiast. Never the less, it did confirm that my feeling for the brand and model were correct, as the 3-series/M3 was the benchmark for all those years.

You hit the nail on the head with BMW having changed focus away from making drivers, or I usually call it enthusiasts cars. Thus cars like the e30 and e46 M3 (the model I have gone back to) have such a following.

I feel the M2 was a step in the right direction. The list of changes you suggested are spot on. Coincidentally my DD for the last 5 years has been a GTI, and also coincidentally (or is it?) another regular on CD 10 Best. Again, I owned GTI's before they made this list, but it goes to show, that me as a consumer, will be drawn to good value and a driver's car.

I digress, the M2 is on my radar, which is why I hang around this forum. I'm just slowly familiarizing myself with the car. I think it deserves to be on the 10 best list and find it amazing CD chose the RS3 over it. Chris Harris actually compared the M2 to the RS3 when he first drove it, and made it very clear that the M2 is really an M3 of old, and that is it way more of a drivers car than the Audi. So I think CD messed up here.

I'm glad BMW made the M2, it was a last ditch effort to make a car like the M3 used to be. They semi-succeeded, but the fact that it is a somewhat limited production was a major mistake IMHO. Because of it many won't be able to get their hands on one, thus they will also not depreciate like previous models (supply/demand), which will limit the trickle down effect to younger buyers picking them up cheaper and also guys that make them track cars.
These are important factors. A lot of drivers stay loyal to the brand they start with. If there are no good used cars for them to buy as a first car, then they will never jump over. Just look at how many kids drive STI's, EVO's, BRZ's, Civic's. Not sure many of them will look to upgrade to a BMW. They might go for an Infinity or a Lexus instead. There is no better advertising than older gen BMW's at track days going faster than newer, more expensive cars. That might be a thing of the past with all these high tech mega expensive cars BMW make now. And no dip stick or Oil temp gauge? Really?

Originally Posted by nachob

They are judged differently. The M2 is judged as a driver's car, sports coupe, rear-drive. The RS3 is judged as a kick-ass 4 door kid-friendly hauler. Just as the GTI is judged as a super fun economy car.

It is 10 best, not 10 best sports coupes. If I lived somewhere where it snows, had small kids and wanted something kick-ass, the RS3 is it. Audi claims fast luxury and it delivers advantages over M2 while being a compelling drive.


The RS3 is one of the top cool cars in its lane and honestly, I do think the M2 is so close to being there. In Europe you can order it without power seats for example. I am just saying that if the car had been slightly lighter and made some slight choices towards driving dynamics, like more focused instrumentation, ability to easily turn off gadgets, it would've made the cut.

I guess the bottom line for me is this. The M2 is a great car and the best BMW made today and that is a problem that CD has been saying for a long time. BMW keeps making choices away from driving dynamics. They could've offered lighter manual seats in the US for example like most of the demo cars they gave to the press, instead they force the heavier option on us. So as car lovers, we need to acknowledge this so perhaps BMW will listen.

The M2 came about from the success of the 1M which came about from CD type people that were saying theE90 M3 was too heavy and bloated and it sold a lot less than the E46 M3. BMW then made the 1M which was a hit and now you have the M2. So there is value in recognizing valuable critique. If you love the power seats, Nav screen and executive package and automatic gearbox in your M2, more power to you. But at least in 1M you could order it without this stuff or with it. You had choice. You don't with M2. If you want something a little lighter you have to order a limited edition super expensive version like the CS. If you wanted a lighter 135i or 1M, you could order it without that stuff. So I think everyone on here, including me, respects the M2 and we care. That is why we waste time writing this stuff in the hopes that BMW will care again and stop this stuff.

There is little real reason they couldn't just put a temp gauge or clearer displays or put off button for blip and fake sound or offered manual seats like they do in most of the M2s worldwide. These are valid issues.

So I end with congrats on M2, the best BMW made today but keep in mind that CD was part of the reason they even made the M2.

You are exactly right on the e90 being too heavy. I owned two of them. It kind of fit my lifestyle at the time (started family and kids) but once I was done with car seats and the kids got older, I went back to e46. The weight and size of the newer cars is my main grievance. Thus the 1M and M2 are much better. But as stated before, why are both these car limited production? Big mistake on BMW's behalf. How many 1M's do you see out there, versus e46 or e36 M3's? Ok the 1M came late and I'll excuse the production limitations, but on the M2, there is no excuse.

Although I 100% agree with you about the weight reductions, and would order manual seats myself for that reason, the difference is actually pretty minute. Just learned the other day that is is 5 lbs per seat on the M2. But I know, it is the sum of all weight reductions. It's a little here and a little there. BMW should offer that we in the US can order cars with no NAV, manual seats and things of that nature.

They should pay more attention to the used car market. It is interesting to note that the used M3's with less options end up going for more money that the highly optioned cars. Enthusiast don't want all that crap on their cars.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by norMcal

One of the best posts I have read in a long time. Could not agree more. Well said.

Uh really? Does anyone here really think that the fake sound, lack of temp gauge, rev match, power seats, iDrive, and price hurt the M2 here?

And how a dipstick helps CD when they are in a remote area is beyond me. Plus they don't just drive the car to a remote spot - they have a nice caravan of cars/vans with equipment and will be just fine without the spare - which has not been in an M car for a long long time (X5/X6 excluded of course )

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Uh really? Does anyone here really think that the fake sound, lack of temp gauge, rev match, power seats, iDrive, and price hurt the M2 here?

And how a dipstick helps CD when they are in a remote area is beyond me. Plus they don't just drive the car to a remote spot - they have a nice caravan of cars/vans with equipment and will be just fine without the spare - which has not been in an M car for a long long time (X5/X6 excluded of course )

It was the sum up of his post that was excellent and clearly you did not read it carefully enough to notice that he said:

Don't argue individual things, what I am saying is that the sum of all of these little slants away from pure driving dynamics add up!

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by norMcal

It was the sum up of his post that was excellent and clearly you did not read it carefully enough to notice that he said:

Don't argue individual things, what I am saying is that the sum of all of these little slants away from pure driving dynamics add up!

correct - he wrote
"These are relatively easy things to do. I can almost guarantee that if BMW
1-8, the M2 would be on the list."

And I can almost guarantee that those things, with the exception of the steering, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the M2 missing the cut this year. (of course I can't guarantee it - but neither can he

and let's remember - it was the M2/M240 last year, not just the M2...

[champignon]

This is an interesting thread for several reasons, and the forum that it is in, plus who is posting on it, is illustrative, to say the least.

Every time I take one of my 4 BMWs into the dealer for service, I get an online survey from BMW. At the end of the survey there is always the same question, something to the effect of a general comment that I might want to pass along to the BMW Engineers. I always write exactly the same comment, which is:

Start making cars that are fun to drive again, and I might just buy one!!!

Of course, I have never received a response to any of these questionnaires, from the "engineering" or any other departments.

Look at who is posting on this thread; a whole lot of people who own other BMWs, not M2s, mostly ones built before the current generation, without the exaggerated electronic interiors, without electric power steering, without rev-matching and other miscellaneous doo-dads that add little and often detract from the actual driving experience.

This thread represents hope against current experience.

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by norMcal

One of the best posts I have read in a long time. Could not agree more. Well said.

I'm a LOOOONG time 3 series BMW owner and have "grown up" with these cars. My behavior as a consumer is that I seek the "absolute". Meaning, I got to be convinced that what I am buying is the best thing for the money. The fact that the 3 series was on the 10 best list for 20 years fit that criteria, and confirmed that I bought the right car. To clarify, I did not go out and buy it just because CD said so. It kind of happened the other way around, because I was always a Bimmer enthusiast. Never the less, it did confirm that my feeling for the brand and model were correct, as the 3-series/M3 was the benchmark for all those years.

You hit the nail on the head with BMW having changed focus away from making drivers, or I usually call it enthusiasts cars. Thus cars like the e30 and e46 M3 (the model I have gone back to) have such a following.

I feel the M2 was a step in the right direction. The list of changes you suggested are spot on. Coincidentally my DD for the last 5 years has been a GTI, and also coincidentally (or is it?) another regular on CD 10 Best. Again, I owned GTI's before they made this list, but it goes to show, that me as a consumer, will be drawn to good value and a driver's car.

I digress, the M2 is on my radar, which is why I hang around this forum. I'm just slowly familiarizing myself with the car. I think it deserves to be on the 10 best list and find it amazing CD chose the RS3 over it. Chris Harris actually compared the M2 to the RS3 when he first drove it, and made it very clear that the M2 is really an M3 of old, and that is it way more of a drivers car than the Audi. So I think CD messed up here.

I'm glad BMW made the M2, it was a last ditch effort to make a car like the M3 used to be. They semi-succeeded, but the fact that it is a somewhat limited production was a major mistake IMHO. Because of it many won't be able to get their hands on one, thus they will also not depreciate like previous models (supply/demand), which will limit the trickle down effect to younger buyers picking them up cheaper and also guys that make them track cars.
These are important factors. A lot of drivers stay loyal to the brand they start with. If there are no good used cars for them to buy as a first car, then they will never jump over. Just look at how many kids drive STI's, EVO's, BRZ's, Civic's. Not sure many of them will look to upgrade to a BMW. They might go for an Infinity or a Lexus instead. There is no better advertising than older gen BMW's at track days going faster than newer, more expensive cars. That might be a thing of the past with all these high tech mega expensive cars BMW make now. And no dip stick or Oil temp gauge? Really?




You are exactly right on the e90 being too heavy. I owned two of them. It kind of fit my lifestyle at the time (started family and kids) but once I was done with car seats and the kids got older, I went back to e46. The weight and size of the newer cars is my main grievance. Thus the 1M and M2 are much better. But as stated before, why are both these car limited production? Big mistake on BMW's behalf. How many 1M's do you see out there, versus e46 or e36 M3's? Ok the 1M came late and I'll excuse the production limitations, but on the M2, there is no excuse.

Although I 100% agree with you about the weight reductions, and would order manual seats myself for that reason, the difference is actually pretty minute. Just learned the other day that is is 5 lbs per seat on the M2. But I know, it is the sum of all weight reductions. It's a little here and a little there. BMW should offer that we in the US can order cars with no NAV, manual seats and things of that nature.

They should pay more attention to the used car market. It is interesting to note that the used M3's with less options end up going for more money that the highly optioned cars. Enthusiast don't want all that crap on their cars.

The current RS3 was not out when Harris tested the M2. He drove the current one when narrowing down Top Gear's top cars of the year just a few weeks ago and his words (paraphrasing) were "the RS3 is mega, the engine and trans are fantastic" and " I was surprised you could chuck it in and hang the back end out." He didn't like the price and prefers the hatchback.

Last car towards the end;

That car is a real competitor and until we start seeing real reviews and not the fluff from the initial launch, it's going to stay under the radar.

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

It's the same name, yes. It is not the "same" as the two cars you mention, it is a larger, stronger unit and programmed very differently.

Not that much different. I admit I haven't dug into the 8S TTRS or 8V RS3, but on the 8J TTRS the coupling part number is different due to the different drive ratio / etc, but it is largely identical to the Mk6 Golf R (it's a "gen 4" Haldex coupling). The controllers are the same electronics, although they do have different software flashes that change the clutch lockup behavior with regards to throttle position and other variables.

I had an 8J TTRS, and a Mk5 R32 before that, I have a fair amount of experience with VAG transverse AWD.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by doug_999

correct - he wrote
"These are relatively easy things to do. I can almost guarantee that if BMW
1-8, the M2 would be on the list."

And I can almost guarantee that those things, with the exception of the steering, had nothing, absolutely nothing to do with the M2 missing the cut this year. (of course I can't guarantee it - but neither can he

and let's remember - it was the M2/M240 last year, not just the M2...

I think I wasn't clear what I meant when I said "sum up". I was really applauding his general assessment (sum up) of the current state (the text before the points). Regardless, the points were all true as well.

I think the point is (no pun intended), that BMW as the self proclaimed ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, does not make the 10 best list in CD anymore, and why? That was really the point. It was never just the M3 that made the cut, it was always the the 3-series/M3. It was because BMW build the best sports sedan, period.

He was absolutely right in saying that BMW used to have the best steering. If they still did, then they probably would have made the cut, and that was just one of the points later listed, but also in his text. And even you admitted that it might have made the difference, so why are you arguing it, just because you don't agree with a couple of individual points, when he clearly stated not to do so?

Look, if you disagree with his assessment and are happy with the direction BMW is, and has been going, then you are probably in the minority.......at least among long time BMW enthusiasts.

You know what Road and Track wrote in their 2015 PCOTY tests about the Mustang GT? It's BMW steering, the kind you don't get in a BMW anymore.

Originally Posted by champignon

This is an interesting thread for several reasons, and the forum that it is in, plus who is posting on it, is illustrative, to say the least.

Every time I take one of my 4 BMWs into the dealer for service, I get an online survey from BMW. At the end of the survey there is always the same question, something to the effect of a general comment that I might want to pass along to the BMW Engineers. I always write exactly the same comment, which is:

Start making cars that are fun to drive again, and I might just buy one!!!

Of course, I have never received a response to any of these questionnaires, from the "engineering" or any other departments.

Look at who is posting on this thread; a whole lot of people who own other BMWs, not M2s, mostly ones built before the current generation, without the exaggerated electronic interiors, without electric power steering, without rev-matching and other miscellaneous doo-dads that add little and often detract from the actual driving experience.

This thread represents hope against current experience.

That is an awesome response on the questionnaire.

I have been been beating the same drum for years in various forums. Not sure some of the newer generation of drivers understand it. It might just be a changing of the guard. Eventually not enough of us are around who remember what a 2002, e30, e36 or e46 felt like. All they care about is status and if they can run Spotify through the iDrive.

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

The current RS3 was not out when Harris tested the M2. He drove the current one when narrowing down Top Gear's top cars of the year just a few weeks ago and his words (paraphrasing) were "the RS3 is mega, the engine and trans are fantastic" and " I was surprised you could chuck it in and hang the back end out." He didn't like the price and prefers the hatchback.

That car is a real competitor and until we start seeing real reviews and not the fluff from the initial launch, it's going to stay under the radar.

I hadn't noticed that, or I should say, I didn't watch the video in its entirety. I was referring to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdGvkPwsqE

In that video CH clearly picks the M2 over the RS3. Not that he doesn't acknowledge how good the RS3 is, which is the same he is saying in the newer video. I'm not sure if that was the previous gen RS3, but even so, I kind of doubt that if he were given both cars side by side (again), that he would now all over sudden find the RS3 is better than the M2, when he overwhelmingly found the M2 to be more fun before.
It's not a knock on the RS3, guys that review cars often are enthralled with a certain car, but when going head to head they don't always pick it a winner.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by norMcal

In that video CH clearly picks the M2 over the RS3. Not that he doesn't acknowledge how good the RS3 is, which is the same he is saying in the newer video. I'm not sure if that was the previous gen RS3, but even so, I kind of doubt that if he were given both cars side by side (again), that he would now all over sudden find the RS3 is better than the M2, when he overwhelmingly found the M2 to be more fun before.
It's not a knock on the RS3, guys that review cars often are enthralled with a certain car, but when going head to head they don't always pick it a winner.

One also has to consider that these test cars are presumably provided either by the manufacturer, or perhaps a local importer or dealer, on behalf of the MFR. You can be critical up to a point, but if you were to regularly say that a particular car or manufacturer's cars are junk, you probably won't get any more to test.

[nachob]

I think the M2 should still have made it on top 10 because they are still offering a 50/50 Front Engine Rear Drive Coupe with manual transmission that handles really well. That, in and of itself, is a enough to qualify because there is nothing else out there except the two seat Cayman. But let's take a step back and look at the big picture not just focus on CD and M2.

10 years ago BMW was on every top 10 list of had a car in the best sports sedan category.

10 years ago every new sports coupe or sedan would compare itself against the M3 or BMW.

Nowadays there are lists with 0 BMWs on them as is this case. Motor Trend just made the Alfa their MT Car of the year and they says it's a better sports sedan than BMW makes.

So putting the small differences of opinion aside because some love the power seats or they love the screen on top of dash or they like active sound or whatever.

Can we all agree that by-and-large BMW has gone downhill in the eyes of automotive press and many of its hard core fans?

It's like the global warming thing. Many don't think we contribute to it, but putting the cause aside, could we agree that something is happening? I heard an Air Force general that has been living in Greenland for decades say that they have a mosquito problem for the first time ever!

So all of us here, can we at least agree that something has happened where BMW's crown as a driving dynamics front runner crown has tarnished?

not that long ago, everyone thought BMW made great driver's cars. There were always faster cars but overall, the BMWs were better. That is no longer the case.

I loved the Chris Harris review of the M2 posted here and found it funny that he mentioned the missing temp gauge for example. Yet, when I mentioned that a couple of years ago, many defended that on here. They would say stuff like...you are ludite, you don't need a temp gauge anymore....etc. You can buy an-add on temp gauge or look for a secret menu that has temp...etc etc. There really was no defense to dropping the temp gauge yet so many are quick to defend BMW, so they continue to make choices away from driving dynamics. I wish instead people would just say, I love the M2 but yeah, bad on BMW for not putting a proper temp gauge and everyone let BMW know that is not cool.

I love my 1M but just yesterday, I wanted to check oil level and have to sit there for 5 minutes waiting for the stupid thing to tell me what the level was and it never did. There is no dipstick so I still down't know what my oil level is. That is plain stupid. Not defensible. An expensive performance machine that is to be driven hard needs to have those things.

So I say to all of you that like global warming, there is.... I am coining it here so make you guys give footnote this, BMW COOLING. It is real and it is happening. I also coined BLoaded for those of you that have been on here. : )

BMW Cooling is real, it is happening and we can slow it down by acknowledging that we love these cars and we need to let BMW know that it needs to start tilting its choices back towards driving dynamics or it will continue to lose lose more fans. If it doesn't change it will become like Mercedes where people no longer consider them a true "driver's car company"

Don't make apologies for BMW anymore, it is not helping. It will only accelerate BMW Cooling. Get on your email and send an email to BMW and say, I love BMW and my M2 but I want a damn temp gauge or I will not buy another one! Tell them that Americans deserve the same choice between manual and automatic seats that the German's have! We gave them the Marshall Plan and the least they can do is give us the same choices!

Rise up BMW fans, open your eyes and help us stop BMW Cooling!!!!!!

: )

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

time for bmw to wake the fuq up and build drivers machines

That is exactly what the M2 is. More so than several other cars on that list, in fact.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by nachob

I think the M2 should still have made it on top 10 because they are still offering a 50/50 Front Engine Rear Drive Coupe with manual transmission that handles really well. That, in and of itself, is a enough to qualify because there is nothing else out there except the two seat Cayman. But let's take a step back and look at the big picture not just focus on CD and M2.

(extreme snippage)

Rise up BMW fans, open your eyes and help us stop BMW Cooling!!!!!!

: )

Nacho, I'm with you, brother, but the train has left the station, in fact it is gone and not coming back!

A couple of decades ago BMW decided that it was not content to be a niche player in the overall world automotive marketplace; they decided that they wanted to be a volume producer. Everything they have done since had this as its guiding purpose. First there were the SUVs, and then there was the "Camryzation" of nearly their entire automotive line, starting first with the boats (which they turned into yachts), and then with the canoes they turned into boats. They are now on the last phase, which is turning the paddle boards into canoes :-)

It took a while before they came to the conclusion that their old, core, niche, audience (people like us) were irrelevant to the overall plan, and could (perhaps should) be jettisoned. There would hopefully be some of us who, in our advancing geezerdom, would get on the bus and stay with them, but the rest of us could just go buy something else or get pushed under the bus.

The M2 is the last gasp remaining in this once proud company's quiver.

I could see the handwriting on the wall, which is why I assembled my little stable of has-been BMWs. I would consider trading one of them (my 135i coupe) in on an M2, but at this point the numbers do not make sense and I'm pretty content to remain with my current lineup, none of which can be replaced.

As to the company, they have gotten over us, and probably we are just going to need to get over them!

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by BruceM

That is exactly what the M2 is. More so than several other cars on that list, in fact.

needs to decrease weight and improve steering ... not there yet

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by norMcal

I think I wasn't clear what I meant when I said "sum up". I was really applauding his general assessment (sum up) of the current state (the text before the points). Regardless, the points were all true as well.

I think the point is (no pun intended), that BMW as the self proclaimed ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE, does not make the 10 best list in CD anymore, and why? That was really the point. It was never just the M3 that made the cut, it was always the the 3-series/M3. It was because BMW build the best sports sedan, period.

He was absolutely right in saying that BMW used to have the best steering. If they still did, then they probably would have made the cut, and that was just one of the points later listed, but also in his text. And even you admitted that it might have made the difference, so why are you arguing it, just because you don't agree with a couple of individual points, when he clearly stated not to do so?

Look, if you disagree with his assessment and are happy with the direction BMW is, and has been going, then you are probably in the minority.......at least among long time BMW enthusiasts.

You know what Road and Track wrote in their 2015 PCOTY tests about the Mustang GT? It's BMW steering, the kind you don't get in a BMW anymore.




That is an awesome response on the questionnaire.

I have been been beating the same drum for years in various forums. Not sure some of the newer generation of drivers understand it. It might just be a changing of the guard. Eventually not enough of us are around who remember what a 2002, e30, e36 or e46 felt like. All they care about is status and if they can run Spotify through the iDrive.



I hadn't noticed that, or I should say, I didn't watch the video in its entirety. I was referring to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZdGvkPwsqE

In that video CH clearly picks the M2 over the RS3. Not that he doesn't acknowledge how good the RS3 is, which is the same he is saying in the newer video. I'm not sure if that was the previous gen RS3, but even so, I kind of doubt that if he were given both cars side by side (again), that he would now all over sudden find the RS3 is better than the M2, when he overwhelmingly found the M2 to be more fun before.
It's not a knock on the RS3, guys that review cars often are enthralled with a certain car, but when going head to head they don't always pick it a winner.

The press launch of the facelift RS3 was in March, that video was uploaded in January, so he's definitely still comparing to the old RS3.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by champignon

One also has to consider that these test cars are presumably provided either by the manufacturer, or perhaps a local importer or dealer, on behalf of the MFR. You can be critical up to a point, but if you were to regularly say that a particular car or manufacturer's cars are junk, you probably won't get any more to test.

Good point, but in the end you have to stay objective and it's up to the manufacturer to fix what's wrong. Take Koenigsegg as and example. They were dissed by Top Gear initially, but they persevered and look at them now. You got to be able to take the criticism and learn from it. Clearly BMW has not done so as of late.

Originally Posted by nachob

10 years ago BMW was on every top 10 list of had a car in the best sports sedan category.

10 years ago every new sports coupe or sedan would compare itself against the M3 or BMW.

Nowadays there are lists with 0 BMWs on them as is this case. Motor Trend just made the Alfa their MT Car of the year and they says it's a better sports sedan than BMW makes.

Rise up BMW fans, open your eyes and help us stop BMW Cooling!!!!!!

: )

Yep, even in TV commercials, Lexus, Infinity, Audi, Cadillac and many others all mentioned BMW........because they were the benchmark. Not so anymore today.

I might go for an M2, as it is still a worthy, but if BMW continues down this path, it might be the last BMW I buy.
Good thing there is still Porsche. Not that I was ever a huge fan of them, but for some reason they appeal to me more and more.

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

The press launch of the facelift RS3 was in March, that video was uploaded in January, so he's definitely still comparing to the old RS3.

Fair enough, that was the last gen then, as I suspected. Might be worth giving the new RS3 a closer look. Although I kind of doubt Audi figured out a way to defy the laws of physics and fixed the weight/balance handicap of the quattro. Buddy of mine has a new TTRS and although a great car, it still pushes in the corners on track, just like all Audi's do.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Smooth 330i

needs to decrease weight and improve steering ... not there yet

And the RS3, which made the list, is? Not hardly. Heavier than the M2, no stick, and AWD. Different car entirely.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Good point, but in the end you have to stay objective and it's up to the manufacturer to fix what's wrong. Take Koenigsegg as and example. They were dissed by Top Gear initially, but they persevered and look at them now. You got to be able to take the criticism and learn from it. Clearly BMW has not done so as of late.

Yep, even in TV commercials, Lexus, Infinity, Audi, Cadillac and many others all mentioned BMW........because they were the benchmark. Not so anymore today.

I might go for an M2, as it is still a worthy, but if BMW continues down this path, it might be the last BMW I buy.
Good thing there is still Porsche. Not that I was ever a huge fan of them, but for some reason they appeal to me more and more.

Fair enough, that was the last gen then, as I suspected. Might be worth giving the new RS3 a closer look. Although I kind of doubt Audi figured out a way to defy the laws of physics and fixed the weight/balance handicap of the quattro. Buddy of mine has a new TTRS and although a great car, it still pushes in the corners on track, just like all Audi's do.

I think despite some negatives the m2 is in a class by itself and still available in manual. I would get one while you still can before they force full time start stop or put bigger screen or replace the steering wheel with an XBOX controller. As cars become more gadgets we the m2 will compare favorably in that case.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by BruceM

And the RS3, which made the list, is? Not hardly. Heavier than the M2, no stick, and AWD. Different car entirely.

Agree completely! However, M2 should absolutely destroy RS3 so that it is not even close. RS3 is a bastard child. When somebody who knows chassis and drive-train development compares the two they should say - yeah not even close!

I want BMW to unleash M2's potential and carry the BMW legacy, engineering and driving passion in the cleanest most direct way possible instead of tying 30lbs dumbbells to it's legs and making their M cars numb.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by nachob

I think despite some negatives the m2 is in a class by itself and still available in manual. I would get one while you still can before they force full time start stop or put bigger screen or replace the steering wheel with an XBOX controller. As cars become more gadgets we the m2 will compare favorably in that case.

Agreed. It will go down favorably in history. Some of the "progress" can't be changed, because of regulations. Manufactures are forced to do certain things to meet the fleet MPG and what not, I get that. My gripe was always that BMW should at least build one car that was still a pure drivers car, like Porsche does whit the GT3. Many have argued that it wasn't feasible, because it would have to be a limited production car, and not worth it. I think those arguments have been proven wrong, since BMW has limited the production of the M2, despite it being a turbo engine and meeting all the new standards.

If Porsche can do it, then why couldn't BMW?