[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by nachob

Amen! CD is the most driver focused of all the car magazines and pretty much I fit with their thinking. What I appreciate about your comment is that bunch of BMW guys just say CD is anti BMW or they are just ludites instead of saying like you, what is BMW doing wrong. A lot of BMW apologists say that CD is anti BMW, but they had a 3 series for over 20 years consecutively! What has happened with BMW is that they tilt away from driver focus to tech and other things. Their steering was usually one of the most communicative, now it is getting better but no longer a leader. They put a giant display on top of the dash in line of site. They drop the temp gauge for glowing display or econometer or whatever they do. Their instruments which used to be clear and effective get trendy, blingy and hard to see. Their interior lighting in E46 was all business good-for-night-vision red. Now it's a Christmas tree. I could go on all night, but the point is that the sum of all of these tiny pecadillos add up to where really BMW is not really trying to build the ultimate driving machine anymore. They have realized that guys CD and their fans is a small shrinking group and the masses don't care as much as long as they sell a ton of cars and they are doing that. So BMW is smart at that. There is no money in building the ultimate driving machine when everyone wants a 5000lb arcade on wheels.

Here are my thoughts on what would've made the M2 on the top 10 list:
Don't argue individual things, what I am saying is that the sum of all of these little slants away from pure driving dynamics add up!

1. No fake sound....period. The car sounds amazing outside, why sully it with fake cabin sound. At least allow to easily turn it off without coding.
2. Put a temp gauge with clear, purposeful white on black instruments....NOTE, the new cluster looks better, just needs a temp gauge
3. Put a button to disable auto blip in all mode. CD guys know how to do it already and don't want it.
4. Offer lighter manual seats in M cloth and Alcantara
5. Improve the steering feedback or put a hydraulic rack just for M cars
6. Make it lighter. It should not have been heavier than outgoing 1 series!
7. Offer no iDrive version or at least put the display lower in the middle like Cayman or GTI. I just bought a MK7 GTI for wife and display is great and doesn't distract like BMWs current top-of-dash offering.
8. Offer a stripper version which is lighter and costs less. CD always care of fun per dollar. The stripper version keeps the "purists" happy and the rest can order BLoaded cars.
9. Put a dipstick and wheel well for a spare tire. CD people like to head off to distant locations and long road trips where a dipstick and spare tire are handy.

These are relatively easy things to do. I can almost guarantee that if BMW
1-8, the M2 would be on the list.

One final thought for you guys to cheer you up....it is still the best drivers car BMW makes currently, so Kudos to you guys for getting one.

Best wishes

I like your spirit. But I doubt those would have actually changed what happened on the 2018 top ten list because you forgot the most obvious option that BMW neglected in the 2 series - FOUR DOORS!

PS. Didn't the M2 make it (at least ) one year ? I believe that as the OP indicated , it was displaced by the RS3.

[seetohey]

M2 made C&D's 10Best in 2017. Glad to see the Guilia and CTR on the 2018 list.

[termigni]

we can't win'em all

[ZPrime]

I'm rather surprised the Alfa quattroformaggio is on there, after the slew of problems that various magazines have had with them.

I was seriously interested in one, although they are also... rather large. M3/4 size.
Stupid Fiat/Alfa dealer wouldn't let me test drive it (I was allowed to start one up and that was about it). Their loss...

[Bazgab]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

Flip side to this - I'd much rather be glancing slightly down and to the side to see a Nav map or radio info than all the way down at the dash. I don't find iDrive distracting at all, even at night. OTOH, I'm 6'4" so I have zero problem seeing over it...

Agreed. I am only 5'10" and I don't find the iDrive screen distracting at all and I have my seat sitting pretty low in the car. It can also be turned off so I don't really see the issue. OP mentioned liking the MK7 GTI infotainment better. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but will respectfully disagree. I had a MK7 GTI and R and can say that I definitely prefer the iDrive in almost every respect over the MIB I and MIB II infotainment systems in the VWs.

[Bazgab]

Originally Posted by stren

RS3 is a good car, not sure how they judge it a better driver's car though.

Never driven one but I assume it drives very similarly to the Golf R and S3 but with the much nicer motor and slightly better drivetrain. My Golf R was very quick when modded but was the most soulless car I have ever owned. Kind of turned me off of "AWD" VW's and Audi's. I know the Quattro is supposed to be more lively than the standard Haldex in the R/S3 but I would still prefer a true AWD drivetrain.

Anyway, the M2 is leagues ahead of the Golf R I owned as far as being a driver's car. I can't see the RS3 being better in that respect. The Audi does sound very nice and has a nice interior, I will give it that.

[F30.M]

I think the central display on BMW is at the right position. It keeps your peripheral vision on the road. Anything lower, I would find it risky to use when you are driving.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by F30.M

I think the central display on BMW is at the right position. It keeps your peripheral vision on the road. Anything lower, I would find it risky to use when you are driving.

If your focus is on looking at the screen, then the position gives you slightly better visibility of the road on top. If your focus is driving, it cuts out a percentage of your attention because it is always in your field of vision.

As I said before, BMW makes choices that slant one way or another. In the case of their display, they slant for those who focus on doing stuff with iDrive. It's a compromise. So if you want the Ultimate Driving visibility with a screen, the Porsche Cayman and GTI screen sits slightly lower and is less intrusive. It does require a slight tilt down, but no more than any commercial jet or fighter aircraft that has instruments below the cockpit line or a head up display.

So BMW made a compromised choice for the masses that want to tinker with their screen and idrive while driving and it is no longer the Ultimate Driving visibility as it is always there. Also, it is much more intrusive at night where it affects night vision. Again, if you are driving around a bright city, not a big deal, but if you are a CD editor that wants to Banzai down some deserted road in Utah, it is always there and so much is integrated with it, that it comes on if you want to change a radio station, etc.

These are subtle changes that by themselves seem minor but altogether they add up to slant away from Ultimate Driving.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by nachob

If your focus is on looking at the screen, then the position gives you slightly better visibility of the road on top. If your focus is driving, it cuts out a percentage of your attention because it is always in your field of vision.

As I said before, BMW makes choices that slant one way or another. In the case of their display, they slant for those who focus on doing stuff with iDrive. It's a compromise. So if you want the Ultimate Driving visibility with a screen, the Porsche Cayman and GTI screen sits slightly lower and is less intrusive. It does require a slight tilt down, but no more than any commercial jet or fighter aircraft that has instruments below the cockpit line or a head up display.

So BMW made a compromised choice for the masses that want to tinker with their screen and idrive while driving and it is no longer the Ultimate Driving visibility as it is always there. Also, it is much more intrusive at night where it affects night vision. Again, if you are driving around a bright city, not a big deal, but if you are a CD editor that wants to Banzai down some deserted road in Utah, it is always there and so much is integrated with it, that it comes on if you want to change a radio station, etc.

These are subtle changes that by themselves seem minor but altogether they add up to slant away from Ultimate Driving.

I think the A pillars should also be removed for better field of vision.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Why are we surprised here? Go turn your electric steering BMW out of the driveway and you will understand, we no longer drive the Ultimate Driving Machine.

Its OK - the car is still amazing and probably rolls in (ok, bounces in) at a solid #11, but it is not in the top 10 - in fact, no BMW is there and no BMW belongs there right now.

M2's Electric Rack is one of the best M has done so far, a far cry from what they put in your 6er.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster

I like your spirit. But I doubt those would have actually changed what happened on the 2018 top ten list because you forgot the most obvious option that BMW neglected in the 2 series - FOUR DOORS!

PS. Didn't the M2 make it (at least ) one year ? I believe that as the OP indicated , it was displaced by the RS3.

Yeah no doubt a m2 gran coupe would have stolen the show

[ZPrime]

Originally Posted by Bazgab

Never driven one but I assume it drives very similarly to the Golf R and S3 but with the much nicer motor and slightly better drivetrain. My Golf R was very quick when modded but was the most soulless car I have ever owned. Kind of turned me off of "AWD" VW's and Audi's. I know the Quattro is supposed to be more lively than the standard Haldex in the R/S3 but I would still prefer a true AWD drivetrain.

Anyway, the M2 is leagues ahead of the Golf R I owned as far as being a driver's car. I can't see the RS3 being better in that respect. The Audi does sound very nice and has a nice interior, I will give it that.

The RS3 has the same AWD system that's in the S3 and GoRf. It's Haldex. "quattro" is just Audi's marketing wank for "AWD car," it doesn't necessarily mean gear/Torsen-based system.

[emargul]

I'm not sure what C&D means by "returning winner." But the article clearly states: "The rules for vehicle eligibility are thus: Entrants must cost no more than $80,000 (anything pricier should be amazing), and they must be a returning winner, all-new, or significantly revised."

So I'm not sure if the M2 would have qualified as a "returning winner," but it certainly does not qualify for the other two categories since it is not all-new or significantly revised, unless someone wants to argue that an update speedometer and headlights/taillights are significant updates.

I believe it wasn't included in the article because it just didn't qualify per their rules and not because C&D does not believe M2 is not a 10 best car.

[stefan]

Originally Posted by nachob

Amen! CD is the most driver focused of all the car magazines and pretty much I fit with their thinking. What I appreciate about your comment is that bunch of BMW guys just say CD is anti BMW or they are just ludites instead of saying like you, what is BMW doing wrong. A lot of BMW apologists say that CD is anti BMW, but they had a 3 series for over 20 years consecutively! What has happened with BMW is that they tilt away from driver focus to tech and other things. Their steering was usually one of the most communicative, now it is getting better but no longer a leader. They put a giant display on top of the dash in line of site. They drop the temp gauge for glowing display or econometer or whatever they do. Their instruments which used to be clear and effective get trendy, blingy and hard to see. Their interior lighting in E46 was all business good-for-night-vision red. Now it's a Christmas tree. I could go on all night, but the point is that the sum of all of these tiny pecadillos add up to where really BMW is not really trying to build the ultimate driving machine anymore. They have realized that guys CD and their fans is a small shrinking group and the masses don't care as much as long as they sell a ton of cars and they are doing that. So BMW is smart at that. There is no money in building the ultimate driving machine when everyone wants a 5000lb arcade on wheels.

Here are my thoughts on what would've made the M2 on the top 10 list:
Don't argue individual things, what I am saying is that the sum of all of these little slants away from pure driving dynamics add up!

1. No fake sound....period. The car sounds amazing outside, why sully it with fake cabin sound. At least allow to easily turn it off without coding.
2. Put a temp gauge with clear, purposeful white on black instruments....NOTE, the new cluster looks better, just needs a temp gauge
3. Put a button to disable auto blip in all mode. CD guys know how to do it already and don't want it.
4. Offer lighter manual seats in M cloth and Alcantara
5. Improve the steering feedback or put a hydraulic rack just for M cars
6. Make it lighter. It should not have been heavier than outgoing 1 series!
7. Offer no iDrive version or at least put the display lower in the middle like Cayman or GTI. I just bought a MK7 GTI for wife and display is great and doesn't distract like BMWs current top-of-dash offering.
8. Offer a stripper version which is lighter and costs less. CD always care of fun per dollar. The stripper version keeps the "purists" happy and the rest can order BLoaded cars.
9. Put a dipstick and wheel well for a spare tire. CD people like to head off to distant locations and long road trips where a dipstick and spare tire are handy.

These are relatively easy things to do. I can almost guarantee that if BMW
1-8, the M2 would be on the list.

One final thought for you guys to cheer you up....it is still the best drivers car BMW makes currently, so Kudos to you guys for getting one.

Best wishes

None of what you say adds up when you consider the RS3 made the list.

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

M2's Electric Rack is one of the best M has done so far, a far cry from what they put in your 6er.

yea, right

My 6GC had hydraulic steering and it was one of the best I've ever had in a BMW.

Ya ever driven one? Hint, AWD silly.

PS - and the M2 steering still sucks

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by ZPrime

The RS3 has the same AWD system that's in the S3 and GoRf. It's Haldex. "quattro" is just Audi's marketing wank for "AWD car," it doesn't necessarily mean gear/Torsen-based system.

It's the same name, yes. It is not the "same" as the two cars you mention, it is a larger, stronger unit and programmed very differently.

Originally Posted by emargul

I'm not sure what C&D means by "returning winner." But the article clearly states: "The rules for vehicle eligibility are thus: Entrants must cost no more than $80,000 (anything pricier should be amazing), and they must be a returning winner, all-new, or significantly revised."

So I'm not sure if the M2 would have qualified as a "returning winner," but it certainly does not qualify for the other two categories since it is not all-new or significantly revised, unless someone wants to argue that an update speedometer and headlights/taillights are significant updates.

I believe it wasn't included in the article because it just didn't qualify per their rules and not because C&D does not believe M2 is not a 10 best car.

Not correct. It was on the list last year, so it was considered this year.

Originally Posted by stefan

None of what you say adds up when you consider the RS3 made the list.

1,2,4,7 & part of nine all apply to the RS3. Could also make an argument for improved steering feel over the previous model.

[ORIGIN M.]

Originally Posted by doug_999

yea, right

My 6GC had hydraulic steering and it was one of the best I've ever had in a BMW.

Ya ever driven one? Hint, AWD silly.

PS - and the M2 steering still sucks

Your 6er is a boat regardless of how wrong I was.

[No Boost]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

M2's Electric Rack is one of the best M has done so far, a far cry from what they put in your 6er.

Exactly. Not all BMW electric racks are created equal. I just picked up an X3 loaner and the steering is loose, light, and totally uncommunicative. If my M2 had that steering feel, it would be listed on Autotrader.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by stefan

None of what you say adds up when you consider the RS3 made the list.

They are judged differently. The M2 is judged as a driver's car, sports coupe, rear-drive. The RS3 is judged as a kick-ass 4 door kid-friendly hauler. Just as the GTI is judged as a super fun economy car.

It is 10 best, not 10 best sports coupes. If I lived somewhere where it snows, had small kids and wanted something kick-ass, the RS3 is it. Audi claims fast luxury and it delivers advantages over M2 while being a compelling drive.


The RS3 is one of the top cool cars in its lane and honestly, I do think the M2 is so close to being there. In Europe you can order it without power seats for example. I am just saying that if the car had been slightly lighter and made some slight choices towards driving dynamics, like more focused instrumentation, ability to easily turn off gadgets, it would've made the cut.

I guess the bottom line for me is this. The M2 is a great car and the best BMW made today and that is a problem that CD has been saying for a long time. BMW keeps making choices away from driving dynamics. They could've offered lighter manual seats in the US for example like most of the demo cars they gave to the press, instead they force the heavier option on us. So as car lovers, we need to acknowledge this so perhaps BMW will listen.

The M2 came about from the success of the 1M which came about from CD type people that were saying theE90 M3 was too heavy and bloated and it sold a lot less than the E46 M3. BMW then made the 1M which was a hit and now you have the M2. So there is value in recognizing valuable critique. If you love the power seats, Nav screen and executive package and automatic gearbox in your M2, more power to you. But at least in 1M you could order it without this stuff or with it. You had choice. You don't with M2. If you want something a little lighter you have to order a limited edition super expensive version like the CS. If you wanted a lighter 135i or 1M, you could order it without that stuff. So I think everyone on here, including me, respects the M2 and we care. That is why we waste time writing this stuff in the hopes that BMW will care again and stop this stuff.

There is little real reason they couldn't just put a temp gauge or clearer displays or put off button for blip and fake sound or offered manual seats like they do in most of the M2s worldwide. These are valid issues.

So I end with congrats on M2, the best BMW made today but keep in mind that CD was part of the reason they even made the M2.

[nachob]

Originally Posted by Stage IV

Exactly. Not all BMW electric racks are created equal. I just picked up an X3 loaner and the steering is loose, light, and totally uncommunicative. If my M2 had that steering feel, it would be listed on Autotrader.

I agree, drove M235i, super precise steering but 0 feedback. Got loaner X1 and X3, same. Awful but least those are SUVs not sports coupes.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

C&D can blow me......

[doug_999]

Originally Posted by ORIGIN M.

Your 6er is a boat regardless of how wrong I was.

That is putting it mildly. I think I had to get special license to pilot that thing in fact!