BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > Thoughts on why E46 M3 had an SMG but the E39 M5 did not?

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-03-2017, 02:21 PM   #1
Captain Apex
Banned
57
Rep
115
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Westminster, MD

iTrader: (2)

Thoughts on why E46 M3 had an SMG but the E39 M5 did not?

So arguably an M5 is more a cruiser than a sporty M3 and an SMG is more a cruiser transmission than a enthusiast manual transmission.

So why did the cruiser get the enthusiast transmission option only and the more likely to be a track car got both options?

Now I know the E39 M5 was made from 1998-2003 and the E46 M3 was made from 2000-2006. They kind of stair step each other. I assume the sole reason was the E46 M3 was a newer car so it got the new SMG transmission while BMW did not waste time to put the new transmission in a car near the end of its run (E39 M5), but I wanted to hear your thoughts?
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2017, 02:22 PM   #2
Stoo
First Lieutenant
Stoo's Avatar
United Kingdom
134
Rep
356
Posts

Drives: F36
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: West Midlands

iTrader: (0)

Don't forget the E46 had the SMGII.

SMG originally came to the fore in the E36 M3...
Appreciate 2
feuer4274.50
      03-03-2017, 02:23 PM   #3
Captain Apex
Banned
57
Rep
115
Posts

Drives: E92 M3 ZCP
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Westminster, MD

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Don't forget the E46 had the SMGII.

SMG originally came to the fore in the E36 M3...


I had no idea the E36 had an SMG.

Well the E46 SMG gets alot of hate, how was the E36's?
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2017, 03:45 PM   #4
smrtypants44
Captain
smrtypants44's Avatar
United_States
518
Rep
894
Posts

Drives: 2017 440i
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Tulsa, OK

iTrader: (2)

I would argue the opposite, that the smg is the sportier, track oriented transmission and the 6mt more of a cruiser.
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2017, 05:01 PM   #5
Housekeeping
Lieutenant
596
Rep
469
Posts

Drives: 2013 BMW M5
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Thank God the E39 didn't get SMG...... total crap, would have destroyed the car.
Appreciate 5
Law6377.00
feuer4274.50
Sabcat22.00
yousefnjr6112.00
      03-03-2017, 06:26 PM   #6
BimmerBahn
Lieutenant
440
Rep
566
Posts

Drives: 2019 X5, 2022 i4 M50
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Sunshine State

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2019 BMW X5  [0.00]
2017 BMW M3  [9.50]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sy1616 View Post
Thank God the E39 didn't get SMG...... total crap, would have destroyed the car.
yup!
__________________
Current: ‘19 G05 X5, '22 G26 i4 M50
Retired: F15 X5, F80 M3 ZCP, F10 535d, E84 X1, E90 335d, E92 335i, E46 330i, E39 M5
Appreciate 0
      03-03-2017, 06:44 PM   #7
PKL
Brigadier General
PKL's Avatar
846
Rep
3,274
Posts

Drives: 2020 M4, 2022 X6
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: San Fernando Valley

iTrader: (1)

I had a 2006 E46 M3 with SMG and I thought it was fun at the time. But I missed my manual and now I will simply never buy a non manual transmission car ever again. I just miss it too much. I live in LA too! Pump that clutch pedal baby!
__________________
Appreciate 2
feuer4274.50
yousefnjr6112.00
      03-03-2017, 07:28 PM   #8
feuer
Major General
feuer's Avatar
United_States
4275
Rep
9,205
Posts

Drives: wife crazy!
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Chicago, IL

iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoo View Post
Don't forget the E46 had the SMGII.
SMG originally came to the fore in the E36 M3...
US never got the S50B32 with 321hp and 6 speed manual either, so is OK if the existence of the SMG prior e46 is unknown
Appreciate 1
Stoo134.00
      03-06-2017, 01:59 AM   #9
-BEASTMW-
Lieutenant
158
Rep
455
Posts

Drives: 2011 E90 M3
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Sunnyvale, CA

iTrader: (0)

Two reasons:
1. The aforementioned two-year gap (think how fast we went from clunky single clutches to awesome dual clutch boxes). I remember reading that SMG simply wasn't ready.
2. I think BMW was not trying to invest a huge amt of money into the E39 M5, which makes it all the more amazing they did such a great job. They had thought the 540i would be enough (this is the true story on record) but when AMG came out with the first E55, BMW unexpectedly had to step it up, and so the E39 M5 was a bit rushed, cutting corners in places. Evidence: Extensively modifying the 540i engine but using the same headers (very restrictive) and same size clutch (definite weak point). They weren't about to sink a ton of money into developing an SMG for the M5 - especially considering it would never sell in the volume of the M3.
__________________
2011.5 E90 M3
White/Red, 6MT, ZCP, slicktop
Past: '02 S2000, '01 M5, '98 Integra w/many mods
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2017, 10:47 AM   #10
STR8-6IX
Banned
Canada
536
Rep
2,825
Posts

Drives: RWD 528i N52
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

the e39 did not come with an SMG because they did not want to bother building one that could handle the extra power
Appreciate 0
      03-14-2017, 11:39 PM   #11
captain_slow
Registered
0
Rep
4
Posts

Drives: 328IS
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (0)

E46 was a newer platform by several years, most likely answer. Initial design work for the e39 would have been done in the early 90s
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 04:00 AM   #12
lemetier
Plenipotentiary
lemetier's Avatar
2614
Rep
3,046
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STR8-6IX View Post
the e39 did not come with an SMG because they did not want to bother building one that could handle the extra power
That wasn't the reason

This is attached to an S62...
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 09:41 AM   #13
STR8-6IX
Banned
Canada
536
Rep
2,825
Posts

Drives: RWD 528i N52
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
That wasn't the reason

This is attached to an S62...
how do you know this SMG was not modified? because i can guarantee you that an SMG built to work with 260 ft/lb of torque cant just be swapped into the e39 m5 making 270 ft/lb just like that without modifying the transmission.

why else do you think BMW did not include the SMG for the e39 m5?
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 09:48 AM   #14
yousefnjr
salty cowboys fan
yousefnjr's Avatar
6112
Rep
3,389
Posts

Drives: ‘06 Z4MR, ‘20 X7, ‘22 M4x
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area, CA

iTrader: (2)

Who knows, just be thankful

E39 prices have been climbing, good ones were ~$30-35k last time I was looking. I've seen 6MT E60's for less!
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 12:59 PM   #15
mirob
Lieutenant Colonel
mirob's Avatar
United_States
2943
Rep
1,676
Posts

Drives: M3CX
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Bomb City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Hmmm, I liked my SMG II...when it wasn't broken...
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 01:07 PM   #16
mirob
Lieutenant Colonel
mirob's Avatar
United_States
2943
Rep
1,676
Posts

Drives: M3CX
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Bomb City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STR8-6IX View Post
how do you know this SMG was not modified? because i can guarantee you that an SMG built to work with 260 ft/lb of torque cant just be swapped into the e39 m5 making 270 ft/lb just like that without modifying the transmission.

why else do you think BMW did not include the SMG for the e39 m5?
I can't speak for that specific example, but SMGs in AA/ESS/G-Power (pick a tuner that supercharged the M3) M3s had to handle A LOT more power/torque than what the S62 was putting out. Not to mention HPF M3s.

I can't speak for reliability with the increased power/torque because mine was stock and had minor issues. I do know that I changed the clutch (as preventative maintenance) at 105K miles and the old clutch was still at a solid 75%.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 02:14 PM   #17
lemetier
Plenipotentiary
lemetier's Avatar
2614
Rep
3,046
Posts

Drives: Yes
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Location

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STR8-6IX View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
That wasn't the reason

This is attached to an S62...
how do you know this SMG was not modified? because i can guarantee you that an SMG built to work with 260 ft/lb of torque cant just be swapped into the e39 m5 making 270 ft/lb just like that without modifying the transmission.

why else do you think BMW did not include the SMG for the e39 m5?
The E46 and E39 shared the same Getrag 420g transmission rated for 369ft/lb, though the the latter utilizes a HD clutch disc.

There was almost no consumer desire for SMG on the E39 M5 nor the vehicle I posted earlier...
Attached Images
 
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 02:53 PM   #18
STR8-6IX
Banned
Canada
536
Rep
2,825
Posts

Drives: RWD 528i N52
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirob View Post
I can't speak for that specific example, but SMGs in AA/ESS/G-Power (pick a tuner that supercharged the M3) M3s had to handle A LOT more power/torque than what the S62 was putting out. Not to mention HPF M3s.

I can't speak for reliability with the increased power/torque because mine was stock and had minor issues. I do know that I changed the clutch (as preventative maintenance) at 105K miles and the old clutch was still at a solid 75%.
are you talking about the e92 or e46? because the e92 doesnt really have an SMG, its a dual clutch which is much better designed then before and can handle some serious power.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
The E46 and E39 shared the same Getrag 420g transmission rated for 369ft/lb, though the the latter utilizes a HD clutch disc.

There was almost no consumer desire for SMG on the E39 M5 nor the vehicle I posted earlier...
I wonder why the SMG was somewhat popular in the e46 then.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 03:10 PM   #19
mirob
Lieutenant Colonel
mirob's Avatar
United_States
2943
Rep
1,676
Posts

Drives: M3CX
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Bomb City, TX

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STR8-6IX View Post
are you talking about the e92 or e46? because the e92 doesnt really have an SMG, its a dual clutch which is much better designed then before and can handle some serious power.


I wonder why the SMG was somewhat popular in the e46 then.
I'm talking about the SMG II in the E46 M3, not about the DCT in the later cars.

Even still, the DCT in the F10/12/13/06 Ms can only handle about 650-700 WTQ before the clutches start slipping...ONLY. LOL. DPs and a Stage 2 tune will get you there easily. But I digress...

I really like the SMG in the M3 because it was lightning fast (not as fast as the DCT) but more importantly, because in the fastest setting it would make a very distinct mechanical sound, it was just satisfying to drive. However, it was shit around town, especially in low speeds, and it was impossible to launch effectively off the line...either massive wheel spin or bog.

I'd side with the people that say that this transmission is definitely more suited for the track.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 06:41 PM   #20
STR8-6IX
Banned
Canada
536
Rep
2,825
Posts

Drives: RWD 528i N52
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirob View Post
I'm talking about the SMG II in the E46 M3, not about the DCT in the later cars.

Even still, the DCT in the F10/12/13/06 Ms can only handle about 650-700 WTQ before the clutches start slipping...ONLY. LOL. DPs and a Stage 2 tune will get you there easily. But I digress...

I really like the SMG in the M3 because it was lightning fast (not as fast as the DCT) but more importantly, because in the fastest setting it would make a very distinct mechanical sound, it was just satisfying to drive. However, it was shit around town, especially in low speeds, and it was impossible to launch effectively off the line...either massive wheel spin or bog.

I'd side with the people that say that this transmission is definitely more suited for the track.
meh, I would stay away from any sort of SMG. they dont shift smooth and are unreliable, really at the early stages for this type of tech. the newer DCT's are great, but I would still rather get a manual.
Appreciate 0
      03-15-2017, 06:54 PM   #21
Terraphantm
Captain
253
Rep
775
Posts

Drives: E46 M3 Coupe
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: N/A

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by STR8-6IX View Post
how do you know this SMG was not modified? because i can guarantee you that an SMG built to work with 260 ft/lb of torque cant just be swapped into the e39 m5 making 270 ft/lb just like that without modifying the transmission.

why else do you think BMW did not include the SMG for the e39 m5?
It's physically the same transmission as the 6-speed (which asides for the bell housing, is the same between the E46 M3 and E39 M5). Handling the torque isn't the issue. Don't forget there are 1000whp cars using that transmission.

They probably didn't do it because they figured there wasn't a market for it.
Appreciate 0
      03-16-2017, 07:45 AM   #22
Obioban
Emperor
Obioban's Avatar
1611
Rep
2,753
Posts

Drives: M3, M3, M5, M5
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: West Chester, PA

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2008 BMW M5  [0.00]
2017 BMW i3  [0.00]
2005 BMW M3 Coupe  [0.00]
2001 BMW M5  [0.00]
According to BMW's marketing material at the time, "because it's a drivers car, the M5 is available exclusively in SMG". How far things have changed :P

I'd say the real reason is because it's not at all in keeping with the character of the car. The e39 M5 is relaxed, comfortable, easy fast. It also doesn't need to be shifted quickly to get the most out of it because it has power at all RPM. The SMG is not relaxed/comfortable/easy fast-- you have to work to make it smooth. Its benefit is that it makes it easier to keep it in the powerband on track-- the M5 isn't great on track and the powerband is everywhere.

I see no technical limitations on it-- same transmission as the e46 M3 (SMG trans and 6mt trans were the same trans-- just with a human or a hydraulic robot operating it), same ecu as the e46 M3 (talks to the smg ecu).
__________________

2005 M3 Coupe, 2004 M3 Wagon, 2001 M5 Sedan, 2008 M5 6MT Sedan, 2012 128i M sport
Appreciate 0
Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:49 AM.




m2
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST