05-24-2018, 06:17 PM | #23 |
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Neil,
SeanWRT has been extremely helpful for me in the past trying to understand what the M2, DME & BM3 map is trying to do. It always seems all over the place. My first logs were awesome running 93 & booster. Everything was great. But i was concerned with using the additive all the time and thought i should not have to on a 93 map. So I cleaned it out with a couple of tanks then did more logs. Well then i got bad gas and my logs starting showing time pull and some knock points and it fucked me all up. Not a lot but 1-2 per log. What did I do, worried about the octane and started using the additive again. Then Sean stepped in and helped me understand that is was prolly shitty or inconsistent fuel. Then it got hot and I hit the dyno. My numbers were crap due to what he pointed out to me...no matter how much octane you have if the IAT's are out of the ballpark then you got shit. I mean stg 2 93 only yielding +25/38 at the wheels...that ain't even worth messing around with a tune but I understand why now. So I wait for an upgraded IC before I move forward. With baseline numbers of 350/394 i should do better than 378/430 on stg 2 93. But the conditions have to be better for the DME to let loose of the control. And the last point is that the glory numbers might be down but it still makes a bit more power under the curve I to do all the work myself but have very little interest in tuning. That is what i am paying BM3 to handle |
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05-24-2018, 06:40 PM | #24 | |
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The shitty or inconsistent fuel thing scares me... My understanding, though I might be wrong, is that within a region, e.g. the SF Bay Area for me, all of the base fuel comes from a single refinery. The different brands then put in their additives, which can make a really small difference to octane, or detergents etc, but as long as you get Top Tier fuel, it should be consistently good, regardless of which station you buy it at. Because of the comments of members on here, I started filling up at Shell and Chevron exclusively, but Sean still believes that my gas may be bad, even with the octane boost of 100 Octane Race Gas. I guess what I'm saying is... how can we be sure of getting good gas, or to put it another way, how to be sure of not getting bad gas. I'm already filling up at big name stations with lots of traffic and Top Tier fuel; what else can I do?
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-24-2018, 07:45 PM | #25 |
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@m2ruder
I like your case much better than Nezil's. When you get super high IAT and super high octane to handle it, you still can have more power than you did with dyno. These high trap speed 1/4 dragster, IAT must go somewhere 130-150F crossing the line, otherwise huge power potential is left on the table. DME do not restrict power at all with their map. But the map you're on is not designed for it. Boost was DME capped where it's capped. Using a different tune, DME probably would target 20psi up top (assuming your turbo can flow) in your case to have the load target in check and let octane deal with the rest. Which is DANGEROUS. Or, you'd meet a holding back at a different level, as a integrated BMW strategy. But god know how PTF find boost ceiling table which in a way works like a piggyback, which I didn't see anyone else in the business has. I refrained from publicly speaking about it half a year ago but these days doesn't matter, anyone can tune a N55 well if he really try. In other words, with BM3 map, when IAT climb to a certain point, DME restrict power by limiting boost and stop chasing load target. One way of looking at it, it's a fail safe or a guarantee of consistent performance - otherwise you get timing pull all over the place or even knock, turbo choke, high EGT, cylinder overheating etc, DME will back off eventually. TBH, it works great for OTS. And for the record I don't like it. I fought hard with Dzenan/Halim not to have it LOL And I don't have it
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05-24-2018, 10:59 PM | #26 |
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I've just checked my logs again, and I think I'm beginning to understand what you're saying a bit clearer... There is a pretty clear difference between my logs with the supposed 93.25 blend and the supposed 95.5 blend. The 95.5 still has some timing pull, but it is less than the 93.25, and the cylinders are more aligned. This would indicate that octane is indeed the issue, even though I continue to be surprised that such an expensive blend of gas can perform so bad with the 91 Stage 2 OTS map!
I'm going to do as SeanWRT suggested and fill up with regular pump 91 next, flash back to stock, and then capture some more logs. I'll post these here for feedback as well.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-24-2018, 11:38 PM | #27 | |
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Are you saying that a more conventional map would not have a boost ceiling like the BM3 OTS ones do, and would rely on other factors to control the engine and therefore allow for greater boost if possible. And your custom map behaves in that way as well? I guess having the DME pull boost if the IAT rises too high could be a good idea for OTS because you can't anticipate which FMIC and other bolt ons a customer is going to use.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-24-2018, 11:39 PM | #28 |
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@Nezil It's a nature ignition differs cylinder by cylinder. Exhaust gas goes thru different bank of manifold and thus different temperature and back pressure. Again super clean timing across cylinders means headroom.
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05-25-2018, 12:07 AM | #29 |
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05-25-2018, 12:14 AM | #30 | ||
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The DME has quite a few calibration tables exposed in BM3, and I'm sure they are using a few hidden tables that aren't exposed to tune there OTS. Since it seems like you mentioned, they have a hard cap on load ceiling and boost after a certain point is set to a hard target instead of targeting load and compensation for IAT,Baro, etc. Quote:
Ok, so to add on top of what SeanWRT has mentioned. The MEVD DME on these BMW's have 2 knock sensors. On near cyl3, and one near cyl5. I highly suggest logging the voltages on these knock sensors if you are trying to chase down "ghost knock". The DME also has very smart knock logic to where it will slowly correct timing first to prevent pre-det/knock. It is also sophisticated enough to check for knock on every spark cycle ( logging tools aren't fast enough for this yet ) and will determine frequency and severity of the knock. There are many calibration tables to determine how much it pulls timing, as well as load ( lets call load the amount of torque/airflow the engine is producing for now ). There is absolutely no point in tuning a DME leaving timing on the table, the DME can predict detonation fairly accurately and will pull timing before it even gets bad. Try lugging the engine in 4th/5th going uphill on the stock map, you'll get tons of timing corrections. Now if you were seeing corrections quite severly on all cylinders that point to a fuel or hardware issue.
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05-25-2018, 12:24 AM | #31 |
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Absolutely; it was always planned. I am currently awaiting a CSF Intercooler which has been shipped. Initially Fedex predicted its arrival on Saturday, now they're saying Wednesday next week, presumably because of the holiday weekend.
Latest update still predicts Wednesday, but it got from NE to western WY today. Looking at the map, there is still a change, albeit a low one, that it could arrive Saturday.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-25-2018, 08:15 PM | #32 |
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So following up on SeanWRT's suggestion, I let the tank go pretty low, then filled up with straight CA 91 Pump Gas today. For the record it was Chevron. At the same time, I flashed the stock map to the car, and got 5 good pulls logged. Obviously the first couple are during DME adaptation, but I'm posting them here anyway for reference.
The gas station I went to also sells E85, so I filled a VP Racing can with 5.66 gallons of that while I was there. This is currently stored in a dark corner of my garage, but it's available to test with if it looks like a good idea. I love how cheap E85 is, especially compared to Race Gas! Finally, it looks like my CSF FMIC isn't going to arrive tomorrow, and I'll have to wait until Wednesday next week to install that.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-25-2018, 08:23 PM | #33 |
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There is clearly a very different tuning strategy at play with the stock map. The throttle angle is not at 100% for the first half of the run, which is quite different from the BM3 OTS maps.
Timing, as SeanWRT expected, isn't cleanly aligned on all the runs, and based on his and cookiesowns's feedback about timing, I'm less concerned about it than I was in the past, and I think I can safely assume there is nothing fundamentally wrong with my car. Where do I go from here though...
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-26-2018, 12:07 AM | #34 |
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I had a log today where the timing looked crazy like yours. I had logged it using my phone. I then did a run right after using the laptop to log and timing was perfectly fine.
Could just be something simple like that maybe |
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05-26-2018, 12:26 AM | #35 | |
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All my BMW's seem to prefer shell over chevron, very possible it's placebo, but my logs say otherwise on my other cars. I would avoid the E30 map for now. You want a good gasoline base for ethanol maps. Do not run the E30 map before FMIC. again send me a PM
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05-27-2018, 11:50 AM | #36 |
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Nezil m2ruder
Guys, I flashed STG2 93OCT OTS just for datalogging purpose. If you want to compare, below is the link. Ambient temp is 80F. Gas is 98RON. And I have a STG1 turbo to make things easier for DME. I did 5 back to back 3rd gear pulls, all of them are identical, except for IAT maxed at 95F and EGT maxed at a stable 1450F. http://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=5b0aa958d10b432f2edccba8 I also drove back home on OTS. Been with BM3 since its very first M2 OTS, I'm deeply impressed. In my opinion, there is no one else in the business offering a OTS that comes close, in terms of outright power, smoothness and drivability. All I can say to new users is - you have no idea how much a blessing it is to have a tune of this level for just 595USD that is available 24/7 and requires nothing more than a laptop at home. Spectacular job Halim@HCP
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05-27-2018, 02:23 PM | #37 | |
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I'm still not sure where to go from here if the fuel here is so bad that I have to either use octane booster or race gas even to get the 91 Octane maps to work consistently. Octane booster is actually the cheapest and most convenient solution, and there are users in California who have been using it in every tank for many thousands of miles.... it's tempting, but I'd still rather not do that because of the unknown long term issues. E30 is a potential option, and I believe m2ruder is trying that currently (though he's not in CA). I'm interested to see his results. As proTUNING Freaks suggested, maybe it's a good idea to have a set of OTS maps for poor ACN (Arizona / California / Nevada) fuel... Lastly, a custom map is of course an option, and I'd be interested in exploring this option. Should I contact Halim@HCP for this directly?
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-27-2018, 03:18 PM | #38 |
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@Nezil Custom tuning to your octane is a great option. Though I don't think Halim has time for custom tuning these days. I'd recommend Gary Jordan. He is also Dzenan's recommendation.
Keep in mind put on all hardware mods before reaching out to tuner.
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05-27-2018, 03:27 PM | #39 | |
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Looking at, and comparing, three different logs, I think it's possible to see something of a pattern. In my first logs with either the 93 or 91 Octane OTS maps with my 93.25 AKI 3:1 Pump to Race Gas blend, I was getting timing pull on all cylinders, occasional knock detected events, and the logs just look a bit of a mess; here's a good example: When I increased the octane by adding more race gas, to what I calculate to be 95.5 AKI, the logs improved consistently; another example: And finally, SeanWRT's log, which although is the Stage 2 rather than Stage 1 map, shows very similar timing adjustments to my 95.5 AKI log.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-27-2018, 03:30 PM | #40 |
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Thanks for the recommendation... My CSF FMIC should be here on Wednesday, and the only other thing I had planned (for the mid term) was maybe a Pure Inlet pipe, or the upcoming new FTP Inlet pipe.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-27-2018, 03:43 PM | #41 | ||
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05-27-2018, 04:42 PM | #42 | |
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BTW, I've sent a PM off to Cary to start the discussion.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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05-28-2018, 11:08 PM | #43 |
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I've got some updates...
Halim got back to me on my original map issue request through BM3, and we started a discussion there. Looking at my logs, he feels that the 95.5 AKI blend that I made was giving acceptable logs, but the 93.25 AKI blend was not really. His estimation was that the ACN 91 pump gas I have access to here, is more equivalent to 88 AKI!!! If that's true, the maths does sort of work out. My initial 3:1 race gas blend works out to 93.25 if the pump gas is 91 as claimed, and works out to 91 if the pump gas is 88. My 95.5 race gas blend would actually be 94 if the original pump gas was performing like 88. Halim asked me to take some logs of the Stage 2 91 Octane OTS map with my ACN 91 pump gas, and I've done that... They're very different! It is perhaps unfair to compare these logs to the 95.5 AKI logs I took last week, because today was very hot (31.5C / 89F), and my CSF FMIC still isn't here. IATs started in the high 90s and went up to 150 after my 6 pulls. CSF FMIC is due here Wednesday by the way, and will be installed that evening if I have anything to do with it! In any case, I'm posting the logs and charts here for reference as this plays out:
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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06-01-2018, 01:09 PM | #44 |
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As a bit of an update, I did get this message from Halim at ProTuning Freaks yesterday:
Hey Neil, the octane is really the worst I have ever seen in an M2. Ever.This was in response to taking a look at my Stage 2 OTS 91 Octane map logs (the same ones posted above... Since then, I've now installed my CSF FMIC. The IATs are WAY WAY down, I can't believe how much more effective it is over stock. With stock, the IAT never went below ~85F, with the CSF, it went down to 60F last night when I was testing. I do realise that the ambient has to be low to get a 60F temp, but I've never see IATs that low since logging with stock, regardless of ambient temps. I captured new logs of the stock map and the Stage 1 91 Octane OTS map with the FMIC installed last night; will post them up when I get a chance.
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Current Performance Mods: CSF FMIC, ER CP, Fabspeed Cat, Aquamist WMI, GFB DV+, NGK 97506, BM3 (Stage 2 93 OTS), CDV delete, UCP, M2C/M3/M4 Strut Brace, M3/M4 Reinforcement Rings |
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