[M235Montreal]

Ah Well ,I'm having a bad misshapen with my setup , i awaited for them so long ! it is :

Wheels: 19" Forged VS-5RS
Front: 19x9 ET30
Rear: 19x10 ET40

Tires: Michelin Pilot Sport 4S
Front: 255/35-19
Rear: 275/35-19

I installed them last Thursday at a professional shop where i live and well merely 3 hours later when i came out the gym the Rear Right was half flat , thankfully i was close to a station where i put some air and drove back to the shop where they said it was because they forgot to remove a bar code sticker from the tire so probably that's why it was leaking air but today ( 2 days later ) same scenario with the rear left this time around, i did put some air again ( gas station close to the gym), so what's going on?

The Only important detail is that i did not install the TPMS ( to be done in 10 days)

what can be wrong ? what is he doing wrong ? are the valves not the proper ones ?

and just to confirm , we need to be at like 35PSI right?

Any input is appreciated


PS: the Tire place is closed on weekends that's why i did not go yet

Thanks

[DanG]

Sounds like that wheels doesn’t have a good seal with the tire. Either the tire has a bad bead or the rim is bent or the valve on the tire is bad. Your tire shop should be able to figure out what the cause is.

Not sure why you didn’t install the TPMSs because the tires have to be removed to install the TPMSs.

And yes the correct presssure is 35 psi all around.

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by DanG

Sounds like that wheels doesn’t have a good seal with the tire. Either the tire has a bad bead or the rim is bent or the valve on the tire is bad. Your tire shop should be able to figure out what the cause is.

Not sure why you didn’t install the TPMSs because the tires have to be removed to install the TPMSs.

And yes the correct pressure is 35 psi all around.

All tires and Wheels are Brand new, and well for the TPMS , it wasn't existing in Canada on most BMW's but it is to be had on the M2 Comp.

and yes i will ask the hard questions on Monday , these guys always did a proper job with all my cars before

[DanG]

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

All tires and Wheels are Brand new, and well for the TPMS , it wasn't existing in Canada on most BMW's but it is to be had on the M2 Comp.

and yes i will ask the hard questions on Monday , these guys always did a proper job with all my cars before

I once had a new Michelin that had a bad bead. It leaked as yours because it wouldn’t seal tight against the wheel. Michelin replaced it for free.

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by DanG

I once had a new Michelin that had a bad bead. It leaked as yours because it wouldn’t seal tight against the wheel. Michelin replaced it for free.

i would be very unlucky to have this issue on 2 new tires,,,,

[ashmostro]

I'm willing to bet it's improperly installed valve stems. Only way to know for sure is a leak test. I wouldn't drive it till you get it checked out on Monday, for safety.

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

I'm willing to bet it's improperly installed valve stems. Only way to know for sure is a leak test. I wouldn't drive it till you get it checked out on Monday, for safety.

Word sir, i did another check this morning on my way to the gym ( very close) it was still Ok , but no more drive until tomorrow


I'll keep you guys posted, it is a shame cause the car drove like a totally new car , the difference is rather staggering

[M235Montreal]

Came back from the Shop , and well he rechecked all the tires, the probable issue according to him was some sort of a bar code sticker thant was there (tire side) usually they leave it there and it should not cause issues but hey he removed it from all 4 tires and hopefully it should be good

on a side note i will have to go back and install the tpms in few days , i did not install them since we thought it was not required since it was the case for most bmw's in Canada until recently

on the bright side : for the small experience i had with this setup , it already feels way better than Stock PSS on the heavy 778M's

Regards

[M235Montreal]

Issue still Ongoing , it happened on 3 tires so far and well now , i'm receiving Private messages stating that it is a known issue With Apex /Michelin 4S combo . this is worrying if it is true , these wheels are very Expensive it took months to get them .

I would appreciate if some other member with the same Wheel/tires combo give their input on this.

Similar issue is experienced by Porsche owners : https://www.718forum.com/threads/ape...ir-leak.25622/

regards

[ashmostro]

Veeeery interesting, thank you montreal!

From that thread, this sounds like something to look into: "I had an issue with my Apex EC-7s and brand new Michelin Supersports leaking. I took out spray bottle with dish soap and found that new the bead, the Michelin's had these 3/4" long thin, stringy injection nipples sticking out, but on two of the tires, these were bent down into the bead area and air was slowly leaking out. I took the wheel off and took the air out so I could push down the sidewall and pull out these little string nipples from the bead area. Then I refilled with air and they never leaked again. Not sure if you checked for those on yours?"

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by ashmostro

Veeeery interesting, thank you montreal!

From that thread, this sounds like something to look into: "I had an issue with my Apex EC-7s and brand new Michelin Supersports leaking. I took out spray bottle with dish soap and found that new the bead, the Michelin's had these 3/4" long thin, stringy injection nipples sticking out, but on two of the tires, these were bent down into the bead area and air was slowly leaking out. I took the wheel off and took the air out so I could push down the sidewall and pull out these little string nipples from the bead area. Then I refilled with air and they never leaked again. Not sure if you checked for those on yours?"

Called Apex, he said they saw several cases of this issue, he advises to Pump the tire to the max Advised PSI and leave it for 10 min then bring it back to OEM PSI , he advises against using a Bead Sealer because it hinders the intended Performance of the wheel , this really sucks actually because it does not seem to be a Permanent bullet proof Fix

[CSBM5]

Very interesting thread. It appears to be an issue with the knurled bead design in the wheels incorporating such since the flow-formed Apex smooth bead wheels don't have any issue (note I have both EC-7 and ARC-8 flow-formed Apex wheels that have been no issue for years now). In that 718 thread, one posted noted:

I actually emailed Apex about it and they said they do experience this with knurled beads and with the ps4s but they have always been about to fix it by dismounting rotating the tire a bit and mounting and balancing again . They noted that if I had to pay for remounting they would reimburse me if I send them the invoice. If it still doesn't work they will continue to support me to find a solution

Sounds like it's time to take up Apex on the offer they made to this customer experiencing something similar.

[Expert@ApexWheels]

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Called Apex, he said they saw several cases of this issue, he advises to Pump the tire to the max Advised PSI and leave it for 10 min then bring it back to OEM PSI , he advises against using a Bead Sealer because it hinders the intended Performance of the wheel , this really sucks actually because it does not seem to be a Permanent bullet proof Fix

Hi All,

I'm the one that spoke to the OP on the phone. For clarity: Bead sealer should be fine to use on any of our wheels, but like tire sealant, it shouldn't be required and generally isn't needed. This issue is rare enough that I haven't dealt with enough customers on it to be super familiar with the ins and outs of these situations. More info for clarity from our customer service team:

We've seen a handful of rare cases where PS4S Michelins leak at the beads. This is an uncommon issue and one that we've never seen on our own sets of hundreds of sample wheels with identical knurling and PS4S Michelin tires. The bead of the PS4S tire is much narrower than other brands. This can lead to situations where the narrower bead lets air escape through the knurling after initial installation

Ultimately, the PS4S beads can be more difficult to seat but in nearly all cases the following steps resolve the problem:

Airing the tires up to the max PSI listed on the sidewall can sometimes help them seat fully. This is the easiest fix and always our first recommendation. Leaving the tires at the higher pressure for a few minutes and then airing them down to the recommended pressure for your vehicle is important, please don't drive around at ~50 psi.

If the above does not fix the issue, we’ve always seen a simple re-mount of the tire fix the issue. Rotating the tire just slightly from its original position during that remount can help. Some people will opt to use bead sealer, but that's an optional step.

If you still have issues with the set after trying the steps above during your remount/TPMS installation, definitely reach out to us at support@apexraceparts.com. I think you sent us a forum DM and have another thread on the F80 forums but hopefully, this response is more clear.

Ultimately, the knurling on these wheels is there for a reason. It's tremendously beneficial for those pushing on track to prevent the tire from sliding along the bead seat surface which can eventually lead to the wheel and tire set becoming unbalanced after a few sessions on track. We leave these seats unpainted and the sharper knurling exposed for this reason. We've not seen this issue with any other tire models or brands, and the vast majority of PS4S tires on our sample wheels and on our personal cars are happily mounted and holding air without the extra steps.

Please reach out to support if it continues to be an issue as we'll certainly work to get you taken care of. Thanks again for the call.

-Tom

[M235Montreal]

Decided with the Shop to do both procedures , We shall pump the tires to 50PSI for 10 min then bring them down to 35 PSI all the while applying their light clear sealer and i hope this will fix the issue ,

I'll keep you guys posted

[D.Yooras]

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Decided with the Shop to do both procedures , We shall pump the tires to 50PSI for 10 min then bring them down to 35 PSI all the while applying their light clear sealer and i hope this will fix the issue ,

I'll keep you guys posted

Three things:

1) How good of a tire machine and tech does the shop have? Mounting these tires is very tough if using a convention tire changer and it's possible to tear a chunk out of the bead which would certainly cause a leak that isn't curable.

2) The best way to deal with a new tire/rim combination is lube the tire AND the wheel. Most shops don't lube the wheel and some don't lube the tire (because lube is an expensive consumable). Without lube the tire can sneak it's way onto the rim instead of snapping into place.

3) IRC, Michelin tires sometimes use a wider bead than other tires. If they wheels weren't designed with some positive tolerance in the outer bead seat (not saying Apex wheels are like this) it's possible for the bead not to ever be able to seat properly. There is one manufacturer that shall go unnamed which had a near production ready wheel they figured out didn't work with certain Pirelli tires because the outer bead seat of the rim was too narrow. Caused the tire to continuously slip on the rim under hard braking too.

In this case, I'd say options 1 and/or 2 are far more likely. Ask the shop if they are using a leverless tire changer to change those wheels, if not it's possible they torn the bead seat of the tire.

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by D.Yooras

Three things:

1) How good of a tire machine and tech does the shop have? Mounting these tires is very tough if using a convention tire changer and it's possible to tear a chunk out of the bead which would certainly cause a leak that isn't curable.

2) The best way to deal with a new tire/rim combination is lube the tire AND the wheel. Most shops don't lube the wheel and some don't lube the tire (because lube is an expensive consumable). Without lube the tire can sneak it's way onto the rim instead of snapping into place.

3) IRC, Michelin tires sometimes use a wider bead than other tires. If they wheels weren't designed with some positive tolerance in the outer bead seat (not saying Apex wheels are like this) it's possible for the bead not to ever be able to seat properly. There is one manufacturer that shall go unnamed which had a near production ready wheel they figured out didn't work with certain Pirelli tires because the outer bead seat of the rim was too narrow. Caused the tire to continuously slip on the rim under hard braking too.

In this case, I'd say options 1 and/or 2 are far more likely. Ask the shop if they are using a leverless tire changer to change those wheels, if not it's possible they torn the bead seat of the tire.

Well this occurs Only with this combo of wheels and tires , it never happens if you choose another Tire as an example and well it has to do with was mentioned by Apex on their post above ( The Knurling ) :

Ultimately, the knurling on these wheels is there for a reason. It's tremendously beneficial for those pushing on track to prevent the tire from sliding along the bead seat surface which can eventually lead to the wheel and tire set becoming unbalanced after a few sessions on track. We leave these seats unpainted and the sharper knurling exposed for this reason.

i'm about to go to the Shop today and proceed with this ( i have to install tpms anyway) and well on the bright side the tires did not leak since a week

I'll keep you posted

regards

[M235Montreal]

Hey Guys, so i did put a light sealer on my wheels and it is doing just fine , pressure stays at 34PSI on all 4 corners , i'm testing it daily for 5 days now.

I do not track my car so i truly do not need the extra bite of the Knurling and since a lot of you Guys will probably go for the PS4S i'd say you might as well consider the sealer for a peace of mind.

I love these wheels , the lightness and the responsiveness of the car is totally different and i have no Buyers regrets , i recommend these APEX Wheels whole heartedly.

Thank you

[DanG]

Hmm. Glad I have BBS wheels. No problems with PS4Ss. I am even running 255/35/19 and 275/35/19s.

[M235Montreal]

Originally Posted by DanG

Hmm. Glad I have BBS wheels. No problems with PS4Ss. I am even running 255/35/19 and 275/35/19s.

Well if you have the FI-R then yes they are good , i Had CI-R's on my previous car, they are Ok but you can't compare the to the lightness and stiffness of a Forged VS-5RS wheel mate .

[DanG]

Originally Posted by M235Montreal

Well if you have the FI-R then yes they are good , i Had CI-R's on my previous car, they are Ok but you can't compare the to the lightness and stiffness of a Forged VS-5RS wheel mate .

Mine were great on the track.

[inTgr8r]

Made inquiry to Apex and the reply basically echoed what was posted here already.
They did send theses pics which helps illustrate how the PS4S bead is narrower than some other brands.
From this it's understandable that the knurling may effect bead seating.

[Mavus]

Originally Posted by inTgr8r

Made inquiry to Apex and the reply basically echoed what was posted here already.
They did send theses pics which helps illustrate how the PS4S bead is narrower than some other brands.
From this it's understandable that the knurling may effect bead seating.


Attachment 3185447

thanks for that. I have new vs5 and will most likely get ecs02