[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

The same semi-professional driver was used for the test. I understand the differences that short and long track can make, but the reality is that M235/240 is a lot closer to the M2's performance than some people want to believe. The M235/240 isn't as controlled or graceful, but it is quite close and minor improvements to those cars could have a big effect, especially just the tires which are rather narrow in stock form for a 3,400-3,500lb car like the M235/240.

Don't get me wrong, I think the M2 is a bargain and I love it, but I think you could outfit an M235/240 with just a few well-chosen parts and have nearly the same performance but with more options, potentially cheaper, less HEY LOOK AT ME! looks, etc. It can be a good option for some.

That argument is not well supported. At least not as it relates to lap times. You've cited one example, but I've got an example too. At Hockenheim Short, driven by the same professional driver:

BMW M2: 1:12.5
BMW M240i: 1:15.0

The M2 is 2.5 seconds faster, which many car lengths ahead.

To get to parity with the M2 on a variety of tracks (not just one R&T test track), you'd need wheels & tires, suspension, and brakes. You might ultimately end up with even better components than the M2, but you wouldn't save any money in the process, I'm afraid.

You could spend less and match the M2 lap time — you could do that with some ridiculous tires alone — but honestly, the focus on lap times is a proxy argument. What really matters is the experience of driving it, and that means more than just slapping on some parts. You're going to invest a lot of time, money, and effort in finding the right parts, and then after install, balancing the car by tweaking at a test session at the track.

I can't stress enough that when you're behind the wheel of a car, the lap time is really one of the least important things relative to your experience. How does the car turn in? What's the mid-corner balance like? Can you adjust your line? Is the car flexible? How does the rear step out? Is it progressive and communicative, or does it just jump out?

BMW M-cars are famous, not because of their outright performance, but because they get all of those things right. And those aspects are much harder to duplicate without careful research and time spent tuning. At the end of the day, that process might be more rewarding, but it won't be cheaper.

[six-n-twins53]

So being one of the members here that has owned both an m235i and an M2, I'll tell you that the differences between the 2 cars are more substantial than they are being presented here. I was concerned that I was losing money for no real reason by trading in my 235. The only thing I knew for sure was that the M2 looked way better than the 235. I did have a concern that i was essentially buying the same car.

A simple walk around is the first difference. The 235 while a good looking car, blends into the parking lot like any other sports coupe. Looks good, but blends easily. The M2 is head turner. Lots of thumbs up and, "what is that?" questions. The 235 looks good, the M2 has a presence. Hit the start button, then all doubt is erased. The sound is wonderful. The 235 is subdued and respectable. My 235's MPE had some burble. Sounds good, but far from goose bumps. The m2 lights up pretty violently, and then stays there.

My 235 had a jb4, and my m2 is stock, so straight line acceleration was about the same, if not a little faster overall in the 235. M2 has more power readily available and it's delivery is more satisfying IMO. Cornering and stability is where the race is over. Not even a contest. My M2 reminds me of a mini version of my M5. Stable, unflappable. The 235 seems to be always clawing and adjusting to maintain its line. While not bad at all, still not as confidence inspiring as the m2.

Interior is a wash. Don't want AWD. 2017 electronics, voice etc are way better than the 16, again not model specific though. My 235i pretty well loaded cost more than my m2.

I really liked my 235. Excellent car. But it pales in comparison to the M2. Totally different intention and purpose. The 235 feels like a nice car that they did things to to make it fast and fun. The M2 feels like it was designed from the start as a fast car.

Now before people get upset here, the 235/240 is an excellent machine. I recommend it to my friends and coworkers on a regular basis. It just so happens that there is something 11/10ths available out there.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by Robin_NL

You can tune the M2 as well and get a car with only 40/50 hp more but chassis tuning get it into GT3 territory at Sachsenring...


That's because The M2 as a base setup is already miles ahead from an M240i...

Cheers
Robin

This. The M2 is a far better base for tuning. Takes much less to get a real rip-snorting little track machine out of it.

[qnet]

Originally Posted by six-n-twins53

So being one of the members here that has owned both an m235i and an M2, I'll tell you that the differences between the 2 cars are more substantial than they are being presented here. I was concerned that I was losing money for no real reason by trading in my 235. The only thing I knew for sure was that the M2 looked way better than the 235. I did have a concern that i was essentially buying the same car.

A simple walk around is the first difference. The 235 while a good looking car, blends into the parking lot like any other sports coupe. Looks good, but blends easily. The M2 is head turner. Lots of thumbs up and, "what is that?" questions. The 235 looks good, the M2 has a presence. Hit the start button, then all doubt is erased. The sound is wonderful. The 235 is subdued and respectable. My 235's MPE had some burble. Sounds good, but far from goose bumps. The m2 lights up pretty violently, and then stays there.

My 235 had a jb4, and my m2 is stock, so straight line acceleration was about the same, if not a little faster overall in the 235. M2 has more power readily available and it's delivery is more satisfying IMO. Cornering and stability is where the race is over. Not even a contest. My M2 reminds me of a mini version of my M5. Stable, unflappable. The 235 seems to be always clawing and adjusting to maintain its line. While not bad at all, still not as confidence inspiring as the m2.

Interior is a wash. Don't want AWD. 2017 electronics, voice etc are way better than the 16, again not model specific though. My 235i pretty well loaded cost more than my m2.

I really liked my 235. Excellent car. But it pales in comparison to the M2. Totally different intention and purpose. The 235 feels like a nice car that they did things to to make it fast and fun. The M2 feels like it was designed from the start as a fast car.

Now before people get upset here, the 235/240 is an excellent machine. I recommend it to my friends and coworkers on a regular basis. It just so happens that there is something 11/10ths available out there.

Your post is very informative. I currently have a M235i and really like it. I have a Dinan intake, exhaust, springs, and resonator delete. I had a MPE installed but the Dinan sounds better, especially with the resonator delete. I wonder how it compares to a M2

I really wanted a sunroof in the M2, but it doesn't look like that's going to ever happen for U.S. models so I'm less concerned about it. I've been saving up cash just in case, to adjust for the loss I will take for making the trade, should I decide to. Sometimes I feel spoiled, because I get a lot of compliments about my M235i, and I still want a M2. On these forums it's no big deal, but in my city my M235i gets a lot of love from people. I think it's primarily the color (Estoril blue).

It's really weird, because the only place i feel like the M235i is less of a car is when I visit these forums (which is understandable). At my HPDE last year I would got compliments. I would tell people it's not really a M car, or it has a open differential, basically repeating what I've heard on forums and what reviewers say. One guy even told me it doesn't matter because you can still have fun (which is true). He suggested I try autocross.

Anyway, it's nice to read about someone who actually made the switch, and is happy about it.

[M2GB]

Originally Posted by six-n-twins53

So being one of the members here that has owned both an m235i and an M2, I'll tell you that the differences between the 2 cars are more substantial than they are being presented here. I was concerned that I was losing money for no real reason by trading in my 235. The only thing I knew for sure was that the M2 looked way better than the 235. I did have a concern that i was essentially buying the same car.

A simple walk around is the first difference. The 235 while a good looking car, blends into the parking lot like any other sports coupe. Looks good, but blends easily. The M2 is head turner. Lots of thumbs up and, "what is that?" questions. The 235 looks good, the M2 has a presence. Hit the start button, then all doubt is erased. The sound is wonderful. The 235 is subdued and respectable. My 235's MPE had some burble. Sounds good, but far from goose bumps. The m2 lights up pretty violently, and then stays there.

My 235 had a jb4, and my m2 is stock, so straight line acceleration was about the same, if not a little faster overall in the 235. M2 has more power readily available and it's delivery is more satisfying IMO. Cornering and stability is where the race is over. Not even a contest. My M2 reminds me of a mini version of my M5. Stable, unflappable. The 235 seems to be always clawing and adjusting to maintain its line. While not bad at all, still not as confidence inspiring as the m2.

Interior is a wash. Don't want AWD. 2017 electronics, voice etc are way better than the 16, again not model specific though. My 235i pretty well loaded cost more than my m2.

I really liked my 235. Excellent car. But it pales in comparison to the M2. Totally different intention and purpose. The 235 feels like a nice car that they did things to to make it fast and fun. The M2 feels like it was designed from the start as a fast car.

Now before people get upset here, the 235/240 is an excellent machine. I recommend it to my friends and coworkers on a regular basis. It just so happens that there is something 11/10ths available out there.

I second all of this as an ex 235 owner.....for me the feel of the M2 is night and day. It feels social in comparison. I had one comment on the road in 2 years ownership. I've had around 10 or so stop light comments in 2 weeks of ownership. I actually had an m4 owner follow me to ask what exhaust I had fitted.

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by auf Deutsch

The fangs aren't my favorite aesthetic either, hence the BSM color to help camouflage them. Nimble, yes. Straight line speed, sorta. C&D trapped it at 113 for both 6MT and DCT, 2 mph quicker than M240 with ZF8.

The B58 looks to be an overall superior motor. But does it share the S55 internals like the M2 N55 does?

I think the touted shared internals are like the bolts for the valve cover...and that pretty much as far it goes (said tongue in cheek). There was a M2 vs M240i video floating around about a year ago and the M240 roasted the M2 up to about 90 MPH. I love the look of the M2 overall but that ruined it for me. Even a tuned M240i X-Drive Convertible would walk a M2, but that's not really the point of the M2. Not talking down the M2, so much as praising how good the M240i is for what it is. Pretty Impressive! Obviously, the M2 overall is going to be the better car.

[Dav3]

Originally Posted by BruceM

This. The M2 is a far better base for tuning. Takes much less to get a real rip-snorting little track machine out of it.

Engine wise, meh... Everything else, agreed.

[yaymitch]

Another reason I had a hard time investing in the current M2 is what's coming... the M2 CS with S55. Obviously for 95% of folks including me, we simply don't need that much power but it sure is fun!! I definitely think the current M2 is by far better looking, handles better and sounds better than the M240i. And it will probably sound better than the M2 CS if the stock S55 sound in my M3 is any indication. It took $5k to make my F80 sound good.

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by lop00

Engine wise, meh... Everything else, agreed.

Yes, that's right. Engine-wise, I think the hybrid N55 in the M2 is a stronger base unit, but for reasonable power upgrades it shouldn't matter.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by qnet

Your post is very informative. I currently have a M235i and really like it. I have a Dinan intake, exhaust, springs, and resonator delete. I had a MPE installed but the Dinan sounds better, especially with the resonator delete. I wonder how it compares to a M2

I really wanted a sunroof in the M2, but it doesn't look like that's going to ever happen for U.S. models so I'm less concerned about it. I've been saving up cash just in case, to adjust for the loss I will take for making the trade, should I decide to. Sometimes I feel spoiled, because I get a lot of compliments about my M235i, and I still want a M2. On these forums it's no big deal, but in my city my M235i gets a lot of love from people. I think it's primarily the color (Estoril blue).

It's really weird, because the only place i feel like the M235i is less of a car is when I visit these forums (which is understandable). At my HPDE last year I would got compliments. I would tell people it's not really a M car, or it has a open differential, basically repeating what I've heard on forums and what reviewers say. One guy even told me it doesn't matter because you can still have fun (which is true). He suggested I try autocross.

Anyway, it's nice to read about someone who actually made the switch, and is happy about it.

Man, don't let anyone make you feel like your car is "less" than anything. There's always somebody faster, richer, etc. The trick is to enjoy what you've got, and the M235i is a great car. You're very lucky to have it

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Yes, that's right. Engine-wise, I think the hybrid N55 in the M2 is a stronger base unit, but for reasonable power upgrades it shouldn't matter.

Compared to the B58? Have you seen the tunes available for the B58?

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Compared to the B58? Have you seen the tunes available for the B58?

Good point. I was thinking of the N55 in the 235i. I don't know whether the B58 in the 240i has the forged pistons, etc. that the M3/4 S55 and M2 N55 share...

[scoale]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Man, don't let anyone make you feel like your car is "less" than anything. There's always somebody faster, richer, etc. The trick is to enjoy what you've got, and the M235i is a great car. You're very lucky to have it

GREAT post! This x infinity. And agree that the 235 is a great car.

[six-n-twins53]

Originally Posted by mc3456

I think the touted shared internals are like the bolts for the valve cover...and that pretty much as far it goes (said tongue in cheek). There was a M2 vs M240i video floating around about a year ago and the M240 roasted the M2 up to about 90 MPH. I love the look of the M2 overall but that ruined it for me. Even a tuned M240i X-Drive Convertible would walk a M2, but that's not really the point of the M2. Not talking down the M2, so much as praising how good the M240i is for what it is. Pretty Impressive! Obviously, the M2 overall is going to be the better car.

If you put enough money into anything you can make it a beast. My old sti would roast my tuned m235, my m5 and my m2. Doesn't mean I would ever pick an 2008 sti over any one of those cars. If you are swayed by a video of a car beating another in a race, you may want to avoid the internet. There's videos of golf carts smoking vipers. And I'm pretty sure this doesn't make viper owners long for golf carts

[six-n-twins53]

Originally Posted by qnet

Your post is very informative. I currently have a M235i and really like it. I have a Dinan intake, exhaust, springs, and resonator delete. I had a MPE installed but the Dinan sounds better, especially with the resonator delete. I wonder how it compares to a M2

I really wanted a sunroof in the M2, but it doesn't look like that's going to ever happen for U.S. models so I'm less concerned about it. I've been saving up cash just in case, to adjust for the loss I will take for making the trade, should I decide to. Sometimes I feel spoiled, because I get a lot of compliments about my M235i, and I still want a M2. On these forums it's no big deal, but in my city my M235i gets a lot of love from people. I think it's primarily the color (Estoril blue).

It's really weird, because the only place i feel like the M235i is less of a car is when I visit these forums (which is understandable). At my HPDE last year I would got compliments. I would tell people it's not really a M car, or it has a open differential, basically repeating what I've heard on forums and what reviewers say. One guy even told me it doesn't matter because you can still have fun (which is true). He suggested I try autocross.

Anyway, it's nice to read about someone who actually made the switch, and is happy about it.

M235 is an awesome car. I really did love mine. The m2 is just an amplification of everything that's great about the 235. But in my opinion, the switch was definitely worth it.

[bradleyland]

Originally Posted by BruceM

Good point. I was thinking of the N55 in the 235i. I don't know whether the B58 in the 240i has the forged pistons, etc. that the M3/4 S55 and M2 N55 share...

Yeah, I don't know about the internals in the B58, but unless you're going for a turbo upgrade, I'm not sure that's really relevant. Very few people take it that far. For most, "tuning potential" has to do with software and bolt ons, and boy does the B58 look like a performer.

[rainfall]

I like that the M2 is tuned "everything to eleven" compared to the M240i.

If I had all the money of the world, I would take the M2 for weekend and the M240i for daily drive (and illegally importing the M140i for its 4 doors)

Given my money constraint (i.e., I would only be able to afford 1 bmw at a time), I would prefer the M240i because it has adaptive suspension, so it's better for daily commute. I would also take the M240i because not only I would spec it at just over 50k MSRP (including LSD), but also because I would probably be able to negotiate an additional 5-7% off MSRP. On the other hand, I would get the M2 at sticker best case scenario.

So considering all I need from a 2 series, I would be able to pay like 5-7% off of the 50.2k sticker... or ~$48.4k incl destination.

I would build it like this: dbcunl59

https://www.bmwusa.com/byo.html#!/bu...mmary/dbc19olg

BASE MSRP $44,450
COLOR - Estoril Blue Metallic $700
WHEELS - 18" double-spoke orbit grey 436M wheels w/ non-runflat mixed summer tires
UPHOLSTERY- Black SensaTec
Cold Weather Package $700
Driving Assistance Package $950
Manual Transmission
BMW M Performance Limited Slip Differential $2,500
DESTINATION + HANDLING $995
MSRP as Built $50,295

[BruceM]

Originally Posted by bradleyland

Yeah, I don't know about the internals in the B58, but unless you're going for a turbo upgrade, I'm not sure that's really relevant. Very few people take it that far. For most, "tuning potential" has to do with software and bolt ons, and boy does the B58 look like a performer.

I suppose I'm not "most" then, and I"m not sure "very few" is right, either. Bigger turbo, more boost, etc. means internals can matter at a certain point. But I would agree that there aren't a whole lot of people that get to that point with this car, including those of us who go to a larger turbo.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by scoale

GREAT post! This x infinity. And agree that the 235 is a great car.

Bottom line both are great cars, although great at slightly different things. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest. There's a reason BMW doesn't just make one car that costs $50-ish.

This whole conversation on some level is really silly. You see the same thing when folks are talking M235 vs S3 or M2 vs RS3 or 440 vs C43 etc. etc. etc. Bottom line - NONE OF THEM SUCK! We are all afforded a great luxury in that we are spending time dissecting minute differences between excellent cars. We're splicing the top 1% of cars available on the planet.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Bottom line both are great cars, although great at slightly different things. Nothing wrong with that in the slightest. There's a reason BMW doesn't just make one car that costs $50-ish.

This whole conversation on some level is really silly. You see the same thing when folks are talking M235 vs S3 or M2 vs RS3 or 440 vs C43 etc. etc. etc. Bottom line - NONE OF THEM SUCK! We are all afforded a great luxury in that we are spending time dissecting minute differences between excellent cars. We're splicing the top 1% of cars available on the planet.

That's exactly what I would say too when comparing my M2 vs Cayman GT4.



Cheers
Robin

[mc3456]

Originally Posted by six-n-twins53

If you put enough money into anything you can make it a beast. My old sti would roast my tuned m235, my m5 and my m2. Doesn't mean I would ever pick an 2008 sti over any one of those cars. If you are swayed by a video of a car beating another in a race, you may want to avoid the internet. There's videos of golf carts smoking vipers. And I'm pretty sure this doesn't make viper owners long for golf carts

No, I'm by the fact that the M240i is a great car. My last two girlfriends had an M235i and an M240. I've spent plenty of time in the driver's seat, and had the chance to compare the directly with my old F80. An aFe tune is peanuts cost-wise for very significant gains.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by BruceM

I suppose I'm not "most" then, and I"m not sure "very few" is right, either. Bigger turbo, more boost, etc. means internals can matter at a certain point. But I would agree that there aren't a whole lot of people that get to that point with this car, including those of us who go to a larger turbo.

I like the fact the M2 has only as big a turbo as it needs. Bigger turbo = more turbo lag. The power delivery on the N55 is super smooth from the factory. But a lot of people are all over the lack of tunability.

To answer an earlier question, the N55 has some internals from the S55. The B58 has different bore, so can't share piston components as easily.