[IEDEI]

Originally Posted by PeteA

This. I actually find riding the brake in an automatic when stationary more tiring than clutching. I personally find a manual better on long trips, traffic or not, given that you move your legs about more. .

totally agree. but didn't you know people don't buy sports cars to do stuff anymore? everybody is aiming to crack the Nurburgring lap times with their flick of the paddles....use their legs?? please!! that's not lazy enough or fast enough for everyone's milliseconds-matter Nurburgring lap time!!!

[gthal]

Originally Posted by PeteA

This. I actually find riding the brake in an automatic when stationary more tiring than clutching. I personally find a manual better on long trips, traffic or not, given that you move your legs about more. If I wanted the best lap times and most consistent 0-60 times I'd get the DCT but neither of those matter to me.

Other (very) silly perks of a manual, but they make my smile:
You can rev your engine to listen to your expensive exhaust pop really easily.
You don't have to shift sequentially through gears.
You can roll freely on slopes.
Bump starting is possible.

DCT worth the money? Yes. But it comes down to personal preference every time.

I like your first "perk" too... revving the engine randomly is fun with the only exception that everyone around you thinks you are a tool... doesn't mean I still wouldn't do it sometimes

You can roll freely in a DCT too... take your foot off the brake and it will roll back.

I wonder if you can bump start a car with an electronic ignition? I've never tried it but I'm not sure it would work on a car where there isn't a key??? Something interesting to try.

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by PeteA

This. I actually find riding the brake in an automatic when stationary more tiring than clutching.

It's great that the DCT isn't an automatic so you don't have to ride the brake...

[swagon]

different people like different things

more at 11

[Romo]

The question if DCT is worth the money is entirely dependent on how the transmission wil be offered in different countries !

As told above, in my country the DCT is standard and 6MT is an nearly €7K option, so I could ask the same question reversed.

Inmost countries however the 6MT will be standard and DCT optional.

IMHO we have to split the question in;

1 Costs for respectivly DCT vs 6MT

2 What is the standard option

3 Once personal preference

[Dabozo]

[QUOTE=
You can roll freely in a DCT too... take your foot off the brake and it will roll back.[/QUOTE]

I've never noticed this when test driving a dct. So if you let go of the brake the car does not start rolling forward??

Wish I could rent a car that had a comparable/decent dual clutch (main stream rental) to get a 'feel' for what it would be like living with one.
I know I can rent one at one of those high end rental spots but too $$$.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

It's great that the DCT isn't an automatic so you don't have to ride the brake...

I agree,

Many of those with an apparent preference for a manual transmission either fail to or chose to not acknowledge that there really are two different "automatic" technologies being discussed.

The typical conventional "automatic" transmission uses a torque converter to cause drive to engage rather than clutches. The torque converter is what is providing forward impetus at idle and causing the need to engage the brake. A torque converter based automatic has other undesirable characteristics for many enthusiasts. As drive is based on transmission fluid flow rather than a clutch, it is not a solid, but rather a fluid system. The loss of predictability of a "slush box" is what I don't want and would not buy.

A DCT transmission is a totally different transmission with the drive characteristics of a clutch based transmission. It has a Drive mode that provides automatic shifting of a clutch based transmission. Yes, you can't slip the clutch to get your car to behave in a particular way with a DCT, but the trade-off is a more efficient and more engaged (drive engaged not necessarily driver engaged) transmission.

SMG transmissions, the direct predecessor to the DCTs, don't creep at idle (E60 M5). I don't believe M DCTs do either.

SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox

IMHO, simply describing a DCT as an automatic transmission is a disservice to its capabilities. To me, it has far more technically in common with a manual clutch based transmission that you can allow to shift automatically. I used to use the shift lever in the M5 almost as much as the paddles. That M5 certainly never got boring.

As others have stated, its just a driver preference.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by Dabozo

I've never noticed this when test driving a dct. So if you let go of the brake the car does not start rolling forward??

Wish I could rent a car that had a comparable/decent dual clutch (main stream rental) to get a 'feel' for what it would be like living with one.
I know I can rent one at one of those high end rental spots but too $$$.

Correct...

All BMW's (including 6MT cars) have a hill hold assistant and if you take your foot off the brake, the car holds position for a couple of seconds. This is true in a DCT or MT. However, once this disengages, the car will roll backward on a hill in either transmission. Also, a DCT will NOT creep forward from a stop if you don't touch the gas. It behaves just like a MT car in this respect. If you tap the gas, it then goes into creep mode where the car will move ahead (good for heavy traffic) but only does this once you've touched the gas.

Also, if you rent a DCT, make sure it is a BMW as all manufacturers can set up their DCT's differently. Porsche, for example, feels very different to me and has different characteristics than BMW. For example, in manual mode, the PDK in a Porsche will upshift at redline unless the car is in sport plus mode. With BMW, it doesn't shift unless you tell it to no matter what (the correct way IMO).

[Cope]

Originally Posted by bim2er

SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox

I mean, BMW is know for being misleading. As you pointed out they called their automatic a sequential manual. They also call a subset of their sedans, coupes. One still is missing the essential third pedal, and the other still has 4 doors but just less headroom. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by Cope

I mean, BMW is know for being misleading. As you pointed out they called their automatic a sequential manual. They also call a subset of their sedans, coupes. One still is missing the essential third pedal, and the other still has 4 doors but just less headroom. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

It is you that label it an automatic (SMG II). It is same gearbox as the manual version but with electrohydaulically operated clutch and gear change. In the car registration it was labeled as a manual car.

[Cope]

Originally Posted by Rossifumi

It is you that label it an automatic (SMG II). It is same gearbox as the manual version but with electrohydaulically operated clutch and gear change. In the car registration it was labeled as a manual car.

I will concede that SMG sounds better than SAG. If I'm in the market for a manual e46 we both know I won't be buying an SMG just because some guy having a laugh in marketing tells me it's the same except for the whole manual part.

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by MR.

Second car -> 6MT
Daily driver and multiple purpose -> M-DCT

Drove two manuals before and I want a automatic now. My M2 is a cruiser for road trips and mountains rides, a daily driver in a town where an automatic works way better.

MR

Simply just this.

My M4 was all in ine, work DD and fun car, so I went DCT.

The M2 is still on my radar as a second car so that would be 6MT with £3k towards the deposit

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by gthal

Also, a DCT will NOT creep forward from a stop if you don't touch the gas. It behaves just like a MT car in this respect. If you tap the gas, it then goes into creep mode where the car will move ahead (good for heavy traffic) but only does this once you've touched the gas.

Here's what the M2 Press Kit says about "Creep On Demand" ("creep" as a verb )
(see here: http://f87.bimmerpost.com/forums/sho...24&postcount=1)

-------------------
Innovative Drivelogic functions.
The optional M Double Clutch Transmission with Drivelogic offers further specific M functions. For example, Stability Clutch Control (SCC) disengages the clutches when necessary to prevent oversteer and so stabilise the vehicle.
The “creep on demand” function allows the driver to prompt the creep effect familiar from conventional automatic transmissions by nudging the accelerator while at a standstill – to manoeuvre out of tight parking spaces, for example.
Another integrated feature is the Smokey Burnout function, which invites the driver to indulge in a degree of rear wheel spin while the car is moving at low speeds.
-------------------

[JustChris]

Originally Posted by Artemis

Here's what the M2 Press Kit says about "Creep On Demand" ("creep" as a verb )

-------------------
Innovative Drivelogic functions.
The optional M Double Clutch Transmission with Drivelogic offers further
specific M functions. For example, Stability Clutch Control (SCC) disengages
the clutches when necessary to prevent oversteer and so stabilise the vehicle.
The “creep on demand” function allows the driver to prompt the creep effect
familiar from conventional automatic transmissions by nudging the accelerator
while at a standstill – to manoeuvre out of tight parking spaces, for example.
Another integrated feature is the Smokey Burnout function, which invites the
driver to indulge in a degree of rear wheel spin while the car is moving at low
speeds.
-------------------

I hope it's not identical to 'low speed assist' on F82 MDCT, was a pita to operate and not particularly practical. Be great if this implementation is an improvement, and quite a nice feature for the young M.

[ConR]

Originally Posted by Prodigy 72

I recognise your user name from the Golf forums.

I'm yet to order but like you cannot decide whether to go manual or dct when i do
. After owning a DSG and now DCT the lure of going back to manual is high, also the auto rev matching in the manual sounds intriguing. Decisions decisions. ☺

Haha. Yeah it's me. I left all those forums once Guy Harding started participating. I'm so happy APR doesn't tune BMW

I have no clue what to do. I am going to try a test ride on both a DCT and manual M4. If I can find demo cars that is.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by gthal

I like your first "perk" too... revving the engine randomly is fun with the only exception that everyone around you thinks you are a tool... doesn't mean I still wouldn't do it sometimes

You can roll freely in a DCT too... take your foot off the brake and it will roll back.

I wonder if you can bump start a car with an electronic ignition? I've never tried it but I'm not sure it would work on a car where there isn't a key??? Something interesting to try.

The manual says not to try to bump start or more specifically tow start a DCT car.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by Cope

I mean, BMW is know for being misleading. As you pointed out they called their automatic a sequential manual. They also call a subset of their sedans, coupes. One still is missing the essential third pedal, and the other still has 4 doors but just less headroom. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

What I was pointing out is that it is a manual gearbox with a clutch and no torque converter.

Appears that denial is alive and well.

[Cope]

Originally Posted by bim2er

What I was pointing out is that it is a manual gearbox with a clutch and no torque converter.

Appears that denial is alive and well.

You've got me. I'll just keep referring to something without a clutch pedal as an automatic, don't mind me.

[mofomat]

Originally Posted by bim2er

SMG = Sequential Manual Gearbox

The "M" in SMG didn't stand for "manual".

It was "Sequential M Gearbox".

Originally Posted by Cope

I mean, BMW is know for being misleading. As you pointed out they called their automatic a sequential manual.

They didn't.



But, the SMG gearbox is quite clearly a single-clutch, hydraulically actuated. It is NOT an auto gearbox and legally you would need a full manual license to drive one.

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by mofomat

The "M" in SMG didn't stand for "manual".

It was "Sequential M Gearbox".




They didn't.



But, the SMG gearbox is quite clearly a single-clutch, hydraulically actuated. It is NOT an auto gearbox and legally you would need a full manual license to drive one.

Don't bother, I already tried to reason with him and it was not possible.

[bim2er]

Originally Posted by mofomat

The "M" in SMG didn't stand for "manual".

It was "Sequential M Gearbox".




They didn't.



But, the SMG gearbox is quite clearly a single-clutch, hydraulically actuated. It is NOT an auto gearbox and legally you would need a full manual license to drive one.

Unfortunately, it would appear you are mistaken. I owned a E60 M5 with a SMG transmission. The name of the transmission in that car was Sequential Manual Gearbox. However it was perverted after that would not correct.

This could be similar to bimmers and beamers. Bimmers are BMW cars, beamers are BMW motorcycles. These terms existed before the birth of the 3 Series and arbitrary use of the terminology does not make it correct.

The following is from BMW AG's web site.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ngine_smg.html

[metrickid]

Originally Posted by bim2er

Unfortunately, it would appear you are mistaken. I owned a E60 M5 with a SMG transmission. The name of the transmission in that car was Sequential Manual Gearbox. However it was perverted after that would not correct.

This could be similar to bimmers and beamers. Bimmers are BMW cars, beamers are BMW motorcycles. These terms existed before the birth of the 3 Series and arbitrary use of the terminology does not make it correct.

The following is from BMW AG's web site.

http://www.bmw.com/com/en/newvehicle...ngine_smg.html

The ETK, original press releases and German site says Sequenzielle M Getriebe, I have no idea why they translate it into manual.

http://www.bmw.com/com/de/newvehicle...ngine_smg.html

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/austr...tem=node__4266