[F87source]

Originally Posted by M2guru

I am hoping to improve the effectiveness of that thermal dissipation of the surface area I have. The heat exchanger is one part of that system. Another part is the flow of air - one reason I am looking at canards, fender vents, fender liners, and hood vents. That will likely be around the same time as radiator and aux radiator although that changes the surface area itself and not necessarily the effectiveness of it.

Do you want to retrofit an aux water pump? I've helped ZM2 do his and I can help you do it as well. If you want I think an m235i pump that is fully DME controlled is now possible with Enabled doing some tuning on his end.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by F87source

Do you want to retrofit an aux water pump? I've helped ZM2 do his and I can help you do it as well. If you want I think an m235i pump that is fully DME controlled is now possible with Enabled doing some tuning on his end.

I'd like to learn more about it. Can you share or point me to a good source?

[ZM2]

M2guru

I pulled up what I think are two representative logs for you on the same track with similar ambient, pre & post the CSF to do88 oil cooler change and I’m not seeing much of a difference. Similar peaks and similar deltas bn ambient, coolant, and oil.

Altho, maybe I didn’t find a good comparison. Could you please post two logs so the group can compare?

I do think the do88 is better from my logs, but it could be that you need to get back on the long version of your track to actually see a difference.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M2guru

I'd like to learn more about it. Can you share or point me to a good source?

There is no source. The first person to do it was Tyspeed. Then after that no one tried for a very long time.


Then a year or so ago ZM2 and I brain stormed on how to get more cooling performance out of the m2, and one of the things we thought about doing was an m235i aux water pump retrofit. Upon researching I found out that the m235i aux water pump was DME controlled, and this could not be easily enabled via coding on the m2 - I could wire it in VIA the diagrams on ISTA but it wouldn't do anything. No coder on the forum could enable it either. So we decided to use the same pump tyspeed used which was an e39 aux water pump which is a simple on off water pump, when you give it power it turns on and runs full speed. So you just wire this to the ignition and make custom hosing and tuck it in the engine bay.


Fast forward a few months later I found an aux water pump controller online that can control pierburg water pumps: https://tecomotive.com/en/products/tinycwa.html

This thing is a fully independent pump controller, manual PWM speed control, or thermostat controlled and full on off capabilities at the user's request. This means you can use the m235i aux water pump and all of the m235i's hoses and brackets for an oem install.


Fast forward a year or so and I am talking to Enabled and he is going through the BMW FR for me because I had a question on if the m235i aux water pump retrofit was possible and he finds out you can actually fully "retrofit" the m235i's aux water pump control logic into the m2 via an ECU tune. This means you can 100% retrofit the m235i aux water pump in an OEM fashion, and it will function like OEM too.



So there unfortunately is no documentation on this no threads nothing. You will be the first one to do this. The only guides you will have is REAL OEM, ISTA, Enabled if you choose to do the tuning route, and the m235i for reference. This is what ZM2 and I have been doing for the last few years and what to expect when you're pioneering a field.

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by ZM2

M2guru

I pulled up what I think are two representative logs for you on the same track with similar ambient, pre & post the CSF to do88 oil cooler change and I’m not seeing much of a difference. Similar peaks and similar deltas bn ambient, coolant, and oil.

Altho, maybe I didn’t find a good comparison. Could you please post two logs so the group can compare?

I do think the do88 is better from my logs, but it could be that you need to get back on the long version of your track to actually see a difference.

I haven't been on the short course since I started datalogging with BM3, so I can't go back to get a good comparison. October 5-7 I have an event with one of those days on the long course, but the ambient temp is not likely to be in the 80s again...may have to wait until mid next year to get long course data. :-(

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by F87source

There is no source. The first person to do it was Tyspeed. Then after that no one tried for a very long time.


Then a year or so ago ZM2 and I brain stormed on how to get more cooling performance out of the m2, and one of the things we thought about doing was an m235i aux water pump retrofit. Upon researching I found out that the m235i aux water pump was DME controlled, and this could not be easily enabled via coding on the m2 - I could wire it in VIA the diagrams on ISTA but it wouldn't do anything. No coder on the forum could enable it either. So we decided to use the same pump tyspeed used which was an e39 aux water pump which is a simple on off water pump, when you give it power it turns on and runs full speed. So you just wire this to the ignition and make custom hosing and tuck it in the engine bay.


Fast forward a few months later I found an aux water pump controller online that can control pierburg water pumps: https://tecomotive.com/en/products/tinycwa.html

This thing is a fully independent pump controller, manual PWM speed control, or thermostat controlled and full on off capabilities at the user's request. This means you can use the m235i aux water pump and all of the m235i's hoses and brackets for an oem install.


Fast forward a year or so and I am talking to Enabled and he is going through the BMW FR for me because I had a question on if the m235i aux water pump retrofit was possible and he finds out you can actually fully "retrofit" the m235i's aux water pump control logic into the m2 via an ECU tune. This means you can 100% retrofit the m235i aux water pump in an OEM fashion, and it will function like OEM too.



So there unfortunately is no documentation on this no threads nothing. You will be the first one to do this. The only guides you will have is REAL OEM, ISTA, Enabled if you choose to do the tuning route, and the m235i for reference. This is what ZM2 and I have been doing for the last few years and what to expect when you're pioneering a field.

Thanks for the information! What does the pump do? Add to or replace the existing? Flow faster or more than the current pump? Any data proof of benefit? Trying to determine if it's worth it and what to do next.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

M2guru

I pulled up what I think are two representative logs for you on the same track with similar ambient, pre & post the CSF to do88 oil cooler change and I’m not seeing much of a difference. Similar peaks and similar deltas bn ambient, coolant, and oil.

Altho, maybe I didn’t find a good comparison. Could you please post two logs so the group can compare?

I do think the do88 is better from my logs, but it could be that you need to get back on the long version of your track to actually see a difference.

Which logs?

Edit:
I went back and reviewed both threads and I see the logs you're comparing and this is not the correct conclusion:

Originally Posted by M2guru

Stage 2 91 octane (used 93 octane fuel)
Note the ambient temps at or near 86 degrees. Humidity was high, too.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64a4...729bb107d77f83

Best time at the track was 1:41.5. A month ago on Stage 2+ with 93 octane, it was 1:39.8.

This is only 8-9mins and he's already at 248F Oil and 229F Coolant

His most recent run, he gets to 248F Oil after 14 mins, and coolant never goes above 227F - the remainder of the event, it's on or around 225F

[F87source]

Originally Posted by M2guru

Thanks for the information! What does the pump do? Add to or replace the existing? Flow faster or more than the current pump? Any data proof of benefit? Trying to determine if it's worth it and what to do next.

So on the stock m2 the aux radiator doesn't have any pump, so it relies on passive pressure from the radiator to flow coolant through the aux rad. The result is pretty slow coolant flow through the aux rad and a pretty inefficent amount of heat exchange. Tyspeed tested it once on instagram and showed that the aux radiator doesn't even get that hot because it doesn't flow enough coolant volume, so the coolant stays in the core too long and cools down alot. This means it's not doing too much to help lower the overall coolant temps. With an m235i aux water pump you will increase the flow volume through the aux radiator and therefore allow it to actually help lower coolant temps. The result should be a bit lower peak coolant temps and more overall heat exchange surface area that actually can help cool down the car.


ZM2 can provide the data, he's the only one that has done it so far.

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Which logs?

Edit:
I went back and reviewed both threads and I see the logs you're comparing and this is not the correct conclusion:


This is only 8-9mins and he's already at 248F Oil and 229F Coolant

His most recent run, he gets to 248F Oil after 14 mins, and coolant never goes above 227F - the remainder of the event, it's on or around 225F

Time doesn’t matter nearly as much as how many hot laps are happening—that’s a big difference bn street vs track. If you layer in vehicle speed, you’ll note that peak oil & coolant temps happen on lap 8 with the CSF and lap 9 with the do88. But, I attribute that to 7F higher ambient temp in the CSF log.

I think the do88 cooler is helping in my logs, but it’s inconclusive in M2guru logs. His oil and coolant temps have been fine all along on his short track and the cooler switch didn’t really impact that much in his logs.

Until he switches IC’s so that power isn’t being pulled, runs on a hotter day, runs his long track with higher top speeds, and/or runs a hotter map (after IC swap), we won’t see the full impact of the do88 cooler with his setup.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

Time doesn’t matter nearly as much as how many hot laps are happening—that’s a big difference bn street vs track. If you layer in vehicle speed, you’ll note that peak oil & coolant temps happen on lap 8 with the CSF and lap 9 with the do88. But, I attribute that to 7F higher ambient temp in the CSF log.

I think the do88 cooler is helping in my logs, but it’s inconclusive in M2guru logs. His oil and coolant temps have been fine all along on his short track and the cooler switch didn’t really impact that much in his logs.

Until he switches IC’s so that power isn’t being pulled, runs on a hotter day, runs his long track with higher top speeds, and/or runs a hotter map (after IC swap), we won’t see the full impact of the do88 cooler with his setup.

Time does matter, because we aren’t comparing Lap times, we are comparing peak and average temperatures. So on his 8-9 minute run, the peaks and average temperatures were higher, and continuing to trend upwards (deslect all values and just select oil and coolant. It’s pretty obvious)

I didn’t check, but ai though his maximum speeds were higher on his most recent run too.

Not sure if I agree that more timing is going to measurably increase oil temps, especially for people who run e85 blends, which lower cylinder temps

[ZM2]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Time does matter, because we aren’t comparing Lap times, we are comparing peak and average temperatures. So on his 8-9 minute run, the peaks and average temperatures were higher, and continuing to trend upwards (deslect all values and just select oil and coolant. It’s pretty obvious)

I didn’t check, but ai though his maximum speeds were higher on his most recent run too.

Not sure if I agree that more timing is going to measurably increase oil temps, especially for people who run e85 blends, which lower cylinder temps

What you just said makes zero sense, and shows you’re not looking at the logs in detail or understand what’s important on track.

Top speeds are the same, and if anything he was driving harder in the CSF log that also had a 7F higher ambient temperature and no let up after lap four.

I’m not doubting that the do88 oil cooler is better, as evidenced in my logs and the fact that it takes a couple laps longer in M2guru sessions for temps to be the same between the CSF and the do88, but there’s no appreciable difference in peak engine temps after 8 laps which is where the focus should be instead of a few beginning laps of lower temps that have zero impact on performance compared to peak temps if they get too high.

And, of course more power is going to require more cooling when temps are similar. That’s thermo 101 considering how thermally inefficient ICE motors are.

My point is still the same, which is he’s not stressing the car hard enough to really show the improvement between the two oil coolers. If he had some long track logs in the summer with an IC that isn’t causing power to be pulled, then we would potentially see a real difference in his case.

CSF followed by do88:

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ZM2

What you just said makes zero sense, and shows you’re not looking at the logs in detail or understand what’s important on track.

....

Originally Posted by ZM2

Top speeds are the same, and if anything he was driving harder in the CSF log that also had a 7F higher ambient temperature and no let up after lap four.

They literally are not the same - he's 2-3mph faster in his most recent log.

I recorded 126.9mph, 125.4mph, and 125.7mph vs 127.7mph, 127.7mph and 128.9mph - this is literally consistent as he does it again on the second half of the log at the 21min and 22min mark.

Originally Posted by ZM2

I’m not doubting that the do88 oil cooler is better, as evidenced in my logs and the fact that it takes a couple laps longer in M2guru sessions for temps to be the same between the CSF and the do88, but there’s no appreciable difference in peak engine temps after 8 laps which is where the focus should be instead of a few beginning laps of lower temps that have zero impact on performance compared to peak temps if they get too high.

The focus shouldn't be on peak at all, it should be on average temps and if the car overheats at all. It didn't.

Again, it's obvious it's working because the cooling system as a whole ran cooler:
MIN MARKER| COOLANT (F)| OIL (F)| Post DO88 COOLANT (F)| Post DO88 OIL (F)
2 | 207F|233F | 206F| 224F|
3 | 219F| 237F | 200F | 224F
4 | 216F| 240F | 206F | 227F
5 | 216F| 237F |
6 | 219F| 239F | 206F | 230F
7 | 223F| 242F | 215F | 236F
8 | 225F| 244F | 223F | 242F

Originally Posted by ZM2

And, of course more power is going to require more cooling when temps are similar. That’s thermo 101 considering how thermally inefficient ICE motors are.

You can easily confirm this by turning on the EGT channel in your logs. E85 burns cooler, so you're likely making the same or less heat than he is.

Originally Posted by ZM2

My point is still the same, which is he’s not stressing the car hard enough to really show the improvement between the two oil coolers. If he had some long track logs in the summer with an IC that isn’t causing power to be pulled, then we would potentially see a real difference in his case.

CSF followed by do88:

Define stressing? It seems the goal posts move every conversation - basically unless someone is running 100% competitive with upgraded turbo, running R compounds - no test is valid? I would say this falls in the range of what most people who track do with their car (and likely more so, as M2guru stated that his car is mostly a track car, and only gets street driven to the track)

From my observations, it's abundantly clear his car is running better - as proved by his higher trap speeds. And it's running cooler, as evidenced by his lower recorded temps on both oil AND coolant (which indicates more oil cooler efficiency). The best part was they stayed consistently "low" through the whole day, which is exactly what anyone would want. For his use and most everyone else who isn't you, I would say a change to the oil cooler (and) the oil thermostat with Max Cool on the coolant would be more than enough for to handle any track day.

The disconnect here is your usage =/= everyone else. If you want to stay in a "safe range" you're going to need a second oil cooler (in place of the aux radiator) and remove the coolant/oil exchanger. Or just live with being at the edge of temps. But most people aren't trying to push near 500WHP from a stage 1.5 turbo, so they aren't going to run into the same issue as you.


Edit:

Originally Posted by M2guru

Stage 2 91 octane (used 93 octane fuel)
Note the ambient temps at or near 86 degrees. Humidity was high, too.
https://www.bootmod3.net/log?id=64a4...729bb107d77f83

Best time at the track was 1:41.5. A month ago on Stage 2+ with 93 octane, it was 1:39.8.

This isn't the CFS cooler according to the thread, but M2guru Can correct me

[ThreeStripes]

To be fair to ZM2 the thread was created to help facilitate convo on what would solve HIS issues despite it evolving from there.

While you’re correct his requirements are fairly unique, it’s clear the DO88 cooler isn’t the end of the road for him.

My opinion is that without a larger turbo delivering a cooler charge, and some other options that aren’t on the table like additional hood venting and thermal management solutions like I shared at the end of the prior page the goal won’t be met. (www.headershield.com)

I am hopeful however that a D088 cooling pack will be enough for ~430whp running 20-25mins on a track that doesn’t use 5th gear.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by ThreeStripes

To be fair to ZM2 the thread was created to help facilitate convo on what would solve HIS issues despite it evolving from there.

While you’re correct his requirements are fairly unique, it’s clear the DO88 cooler isn’t the end of the road for him.

My opinion is that without a larger turbo delivering a cooler charge, and some other options that aren’t on the table like additional hood venting and thermal management solutions like I shared at the end of the prior page the goal won’t be met. (www.headershield.com)

I am hopeful however that a D088 cooling pack will be enough for ~430whp running 20-25mins on a track that doesn’t use 5th gear.

I'm not sure how he came to the conclusion the DO88 oil cooler wasn't a large improvement when he hit a PB with it, and his coolant and oil were all "in range"

He needs a larger turbo OR to get serious about the cooling system and go to a dual core oil cooler. It's never been about the coolant - they keep on talking about coolant temps, but the DO88 oil cooler shows that having a functioning oil cooler means the coolant system (which is tied in through the exchanger) doesn't have to work as hard.


You're not gaining anything reasonable with the coolant pump, or another radiator, etc - I'm betting the M2 forgoes it to remove additional pumping losses, and made up for it with a slightly larger oil cooler.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

It's never been about the coolant

And yet tyspeed with his massive csf boss oil cooler + heat exchanger delete still couldn't keep coolant temps under control. Even with his race core radiator. To keep things under control he had to add a radiator water sprayer + water injection.

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

And yet tyspeed with his massive csf boss oil cooler + heat exchanger delete still couldn't keep coolant temps under control. Even with his race core radiator. To keep things under control he had to add a radiator water sprayer + water injection.

Not surprising considering the CSF radiator is worse than stock.

[F87source]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Not surprising considering the CSF radiator is worse than stock.

Not the race core which add a lot more thermal exchange area via a thicker core. He also had an ac delete to improve flow.

I've seen the same behavior on the n54 too, it's always coolant temps that go out of control

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

Not the race core which add a lot more thermal exchange area via a thicker core. He also had an ac delete to improve flow.

I've seen the same behavior on the n54 too, it's always coolant temps that go out of control

I'm going to doubt that - I spent the morning looking over some time attack N54/5s (and I even posted one a few pages back) They will use a dual oil cooler, but I've never seen one with an additional Aux radiator

They use the CSF core because it's absolutely larger than the stock one. On the F series cars, the CSF is a downgrade. I've seen 2 people on this side of the forum install them and immediately have cooling issues.

[ZM2]

AmuroRay I’ll go back to what I’ve said many times. M2guru coolant and oil temps have been fine all along. The switch to the do88 didn’t gain him any performance advantage on his latest track day.

Temps that are a little lower but still in the operating range have no performance benefit. The benefit only comes when coolant or oil temps get to power pulling levels. We have no idea if the do88 would help prevent that for him bc he’s not stressing his car enough (not a bad thing).

Once he moves to a faster track, warmer days, a larger IC, and a hotter map, that’s when the cooling upgrades will actually be helpful or needed. For now, there’s no performance benefit for him with slightly cooler engine temps that were already within a perfectly acceptable range.

The do88 cooler and BMS valve has helped my setup, but still need to dig further.

[F87source]

M2guru what ots map are running?

[AmuroRay]

Originally Posted by F87source

M2guru what ots map are running?

Stage 2 91 Octane with 93

[M2guru]

Originally Posted by AmuroRay

Stage 2 91 Octane with 93

This is correct.