[champignon]

Originally Posted by doug_999

Someone on this board messaged me a month or so ago saying that all of the dealers in the Chicago area wanted over MSRP for LBB - but he could have any other color he wanted for MSRP.

Fast forward to last week, local dealer has a 2017 LBB manual on the showroom floor (asking $66K in showroom , but only $55 on-line, with 1,000 miles) and they have a brand new one sitting in the back of the lot, under snow, where someone backed out of the deal.

Let's just say they were not interested in taking my LBB M2 on trade for a new M3.... well, they were interested.... at $47-48K plus $2,500 profit on the M3.

Long story short - I believe the M2 is becoming available - quickly.

It's definitely available; I think we have established this. Let's take the current "poster child" for a semi-performance automobile that dealers are taking a haircut on; that would be the VW GTI. I have read here and other places of buyers driving off the lot with these at $5K or even a little more off of sticker. This has been going on for maybe a year, with this car, but then GTIs are everywhere. There are reasons for this, including the dieselgate scandal.

My experience in buying new BMWs off of the lot is not great, but I do have a friend who ordered a 228ix within the last year and I believe he got a thousand or two off of MSRP. I don't think that this is a particularly good deal, maybe it is an average deal. My friend is not someone who haggles, I think he looked up the Trucar website or some other sites like that and made that offer and it was accepted in 2 minutes. People generally do not pay list price for most cars.

The M2 is not a high volume car. Are they going to make so many of them that you can reliably walk into a dealership and find several on the lot (like a bunch of Camrys) and expect to get multi-thousands off of the list price? I think it is possible, but unlikely. They are just not going to make so many of these that huge savings off of list will be achievable. One or two thousand? Yeah, would not surprise me. Five thousand? no, that would be a big surprise.

In the end it is just a car. Most cars take a huge haircut in value the minute you drive them off of the lot. M2s will start to take a haircut going off the lot too, however when compared to most BMWs, the depreciation will be more modest, due to supply-demand factors, M-car cachet, and demand for them as used vehicles by people who can't or won't choose to buy them new, but for 20 or 30% off of sticker, will consider them a bargain.

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by akkando

It's a bit fuzzy because a lot of people who say they paid under MSRP mean they used the USAA discount or whatever, and others mean the negotiated down from MSRP. Those two things are very different.

Nothing fuzzy about it, what you paid for the car is what you paid regardless of how you got to the price. Fact is if you were willing to load up your deal with extended warranties and dealer add on's a dealer would often times be willing to discount from MSRP knowing they are making a killing on these other products. It's a paper discount in those cases because of the amount of profit in the deal. Not what I did but I know some who did that very thing.

[SW19]

Originally Posted by GregoryK

BMW Canada are offering a free race day in California including accommodations for 2 if you by an in stock M2 in January. They claim this is worth $5k. I know it is January in Canada but still it says something.....

It looks like most M2 buyers in Canada are now waiting for the MY19 M2 Competition.I went on some Toronto area BMW websites and there are quite a few new M2’s in stock.Town and Country has nine in stock.Eight of them are MY18 and one of them is a MY17 model.

I don’t think a one day M driver’s program is going sell many of these cars.They will probably need to offer a cash incentive or a low finance rate to start selling these cars,especially this time of year.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

It looks like most M2 buyers in Canada are now waiting for the MY19 M2 Competition.I went on some Toronto area BMW websites and there are quite a few new M2’s in stock.Town and Country has nine in stock.Eight of them are MY18 and one of them is a MY17 model.

I would be more interested in people going to a lot and seeing M2s "in stock" i.e. sitting on the lot or in the showroom. As in everything, what is shown on a website is not necessarily real. Someone had posted earlier on this thread or another that any ordered car is automatically shown on the dealer's website as available until the buyer picks up his/her car.

[Potatohead-M2]

Originally Posted by champignon

It's definitely available; I think we have established this. Let's take the current "poster child" for a semi-performance automobile that dealers are taking a haircut on; that would be the VW GTI. I have read here and other places of buyers driving off the lot with these at $5K or even a little more off of sticker. This has been going on for maybe a year, with this car, but then GTIs are everywhere. There are reasons for this, including the dieselgate scandal.
.

It's mainly because VW basically doubled the warranty for 2018, so the 2017 is going out at huge discounts.

Originally Posted by Bluenose-2er

I would be more interested in people going to a lot and seeing M2s "in stock" i.e. sitting on the lot or in the showroom. As in everything, what is shown on a website is not necessarily real. Someone had posted earlier on this thread or another that any ordered car is automatically shown on the dealer's website as available until the buyer picks up his/her car.

My local dealer is three minutes from my house, they have two new '17's in stock, an '18 coming in a few weeks that isn't sold, and they also have a used '17 with about 5k miles. Unrelated (but interesting) they also have two M4 GTS's with significant discount applied.

[Bluenose-2er]

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

My local dealer is three minutes from my house, they have two new '17's in stock, an '18 coming in a few weeks that isn't sold, and they also have a used '17 with about 5k miles. Unrelated (but interesting) they also have two M4 GTS's with significant discount applied.

Interesting. I could see some spec orders being slow to move, because the dealers like to tart them up with all the M Performance goodies they can to maximize their profit, and customers may not like paying for many expensive add-ons they don't want.

If they have two M4 GTS' on the lot, how many regular M4s do they have?

To the OP's subject line, I think it is a combination of supply catching up and demand slowing a bit (both due to the early adopters being sated and some waiting for the Competition).

As I noted earlier in this thread, there was a MY2017 sitting in the local showroom a few months ago. I will have to drop by to see if it is still for sale.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Nothing fuzzy about it, what you paid for the car is what you paid regardless of how you got to the price. Fact is if you were willing to load up your deal with extended warranties and dealer add on's a dealer would often times be willing to discount from MSRP knowing they are making a killing on these other products. It's a paper discount in those cases because of the amount of profit in the deal. Not what I did but I know some who did that very thing.

When it comes to can you negotiate money off of MSRP it does matter because the dealership doesn't lose out on any money if you use something like the USAA discount. So to telling people "Hey, don't buy MSRP, I was able to get 2k off no problem!" is very misleading when that 2k comes from the USAA discount or CCA or whatever because it doesn't dip into the dealer pocket you are negotiating with. It wouldn't indicate anything about dealers willing to negotiate or not because it's BMW corporate pays for it.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

It's mainly because VW basically doubled the warranty for 2018, so the 2017 is going out at huge discounts.

I bought my '16 Golf R in late June of 2016. At the time, the Rs were hard to come by, however the GTIs were a dime a dozen and dealers were giving huge discounts ($5K for example) to move them out. That was before the '17s were even being produced. So what you say may be a factor, but this has been going on for quite a while.

Originally Posted by Potatohead-M2

My local dealer is three minutes from my house, they have two new '17's in stock, an '18 coming in a few weeks that isn't sold, and they also have a used '17 with about 5k miles. Unrelated (but interesting) they also have two M4 GTS's with significant discount applied.

The Canadian and US markets are not interchangeable. I have been a frequent visitor to Western Canada, especially to Vancouver, although have not been there in a year and a half at this point. My 1M was originally a Canadian car, which I bought from an exotics used car dealer out of Montreal 2.5 years ago via ebay. This dealer ended up having to pay well in excess of $2K US to get the car across the border in US import fees; it was included in the price I paid for the car. Before I bought this car I was in Vancouver and was looking for a 1M. I went into the dealer close to downtown off of Burrard, and also another dealer that I think was in Richmond. Neither of the dealers expressed any interest whatsoever in working with me to get a 1M and to get it across the border; they basically blew me off without even finding out whether I had the financial resources to do the deal.

What I am saying is that you could have those cars piling up north of the 49th, and unless there was a US buyer willing to deal with the hassles on both sides of the border, the excess of M2s in Canada would have little to no impact on the marketplace for M2s in the USA.

People will jump through a bunch of hoops to get a special and rare car unobtainable where they live, as many have done to import Canadian 1Ms into the USA. Probably no one would go to the trouble of doing so to get a Canadian M2 out of Canada and into the USA, especially since whatever savings there might be at the front end would be lost in the process of getting the car across the border and registered in the US.

On the other hand, if the cars are piling up in Vancouver, that might effect sales in Calgary or Edmonton.

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by mtoosexy

I said it earlier in the thread... Back in October I noticed three seperate dealerships in the chicago area had M2's in stock. A total of 5 M2's on hand. 2 have sold, 3 are still sitting. I stopped by last week to check for any updates. Plz don't pay over MSRP, it just sustains the greed of the "stealerships". I have had an agreement in writing since July 2017 for MSRP on any upcoming model in 2018. I am sure the chicago market differs from other markets so take all this with a grain of salt.
cheers!

Most Californians haven't figured out how to shop outside their state....

[M3 Adjuster]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

It looks like most M2 buyers in Canada are now waiting for the MY19 M2 Competition.I went on some Toronto area BMW websites and there are quite a few new M2’s in stock.Town and Country has nine in stock.Eight of them are MY18 and one of them is a MY17 model.

I don’t think a one day M driver’s program is going sell many of these cars.They will probably need to offer a cash incentive or a low finance rate to start selling these cars,especially this time of year.

I cant imagine a single US dealer having eight or nine M2 on the lot..

Note.. just because they are on the website.. doesn't mean they are in stock

Drive on over and get a photo of those eight in stock and I will be impressed.

[horsepower_and_hounds]

And there are sp many quirks to the deal conditions...

For me:

2k straight off MSRP
then,
1k additional USAA discount (was 2k bit I financed thru BMWFS @ .9% so USAA cuts discount to 1K)
and,
No BMWCCA discount since I used the USAA discount per BMWCCA's guidelines....I found out after the fact

[voyagergab]

What sort of discount is fair on a demo M2 that has been in demo for about a month so warranty stated on it already. This is in Canada.

[champignon]

Originally Posted by voyagergab

What sort of discount is fair on a demo M2 that has been in demo for about a month so warranty stated on it already. This is in Canada.

First, I'm shocked that a dealer would even have a "demo" M2. Most US dealers I know of don't have "demos" per se for any of their cars, as far as I know. They try to use cars on the lot for short test drives. Cars used in my dealership that are later sold are usually referred to as "loaners," which in fact is what they are, cars loaned out to customers while their own cars are having service done. There "loaners" will generally be rather uninteresting cars, like an X1, a low end 3 or 5 series, or maybe the i3. Once the cars accumulate a few thousand miles, the dealership unloads them at a discount. I'd guess that this program of loaners is in part subsidized by BMW, and is a way for them to get customers to consider trading in their cars and buying a new one.

If the car is really a "demo," then I would think it would be worth less than a slightly used M2 with equivalent miles, especially if it is a manual. How many of those "test-drivers" knew how to drive a manual before practicing on the car the dealership wants to sell you?

I've heard the term "demo" car used in the past and in reference generally to high volume, mostly domestic vehicles, something like a Ford Taurus. For an M2? Never.

[voyagergab]

Originally Posted by champignon

First, I'm shocked that a dealer would even have a "demo" M2. Most US dealers I know of don't have "demos" per se for any of their cars, as far as I know. They try to use cars on the lot for short test drives. Cars used in my dealership that are later sold are usually referred to as "loaners," which in fact is what they are, cars loaned out to customers while their own cars are having service done. There "loaners" will generally be rather uninteresting cars, like an X1, a low end 3 or 5 series, or maybe the i3. Once the cars accumulate a few thousand miles, the dealership unloads them at a discount. I'd guess that this program of loaners is in part subsidized by BMW, and is a way for them to get customers to consider trading in their cars and buying a new one.

If the car is really a "demo," then I would think it would be worth less than a slightly used M2 with equivalent miles, especially if it is a manual. How many of those "test-drivers" knew how to drive a manual before practicing on the car the dealership wants to sell you?

I've heard the term "demo" car used in the past and in reference generally to high volume, mostly domestic vehicles, something like a Ford Taurus. For an M2? Never.

I was surprised too a month ago when we came in to test drive an X3 m40i.
They had 3 m2 in stock all manual and they decided to put one of them into demo.
We drove the m2 as well.

[pruettfan]

Originally Posted by akkando

When it comes to can you negotiate money off of MSRP it does matter because the dealership doesn't lose out on any money if you use something like the USAA discount. So to telling people "Hey, don't buy MSRP, I was able to get 2k off no problem!" is very misleading when that 2k comes from the USAA discount or CCA or whatever because it doesn't dip into the dealer pocket you are negotiating with. It wouldn't indicate anything about dealers willing to negotiate or not because it's BMW corporate pays for it.

Ok, apparently your math works differently than mine, I spoke about what I actually paid for the car, you know took out my check book and wrote the check. Dealers get hold back dollars and all kinds of incentives blah blah, I don't care about that because my bottom line is how much I actually paid. I haven't told anyone to not pay MSRP, I simply shared what I paid for my car, the OP had stated that most were paying over MSRP which in my experience was not the case nor the 4 guys I know who have bought M2's in the past 15 months or so. Again I didn't tell anyone what to pay for their car so not sure where I was misleading.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by pruettfan

Ok, apparently your math works differently than mine, I spoke about what I actually paid for the car, you know took out my check book and wrote the check. Dealers get hold back dollars and all kinds of incentives blah blah, I don't care about that because my bottom line is how much I actually paid. I haven't told anyone to not pay MSRP, I simply shared what I paid for my car, the OP had stated that most were paying over MSRP which in my experience was not the case nor the 4 guys I know who have bought M2's in the past 15 months or so. Again I didn't tell anyone what to pay for their car so not sure where I was misleading.

We're having two separate conversations here. You are free to think about it any way you want. I was more interested in the exact context of the discounts people are getting, not specifically how YOU do the math on YOUR deal.

[champignon]

Let me ask a loaded question; does anyone really give a shit whether someone else on this forum paid $2000 more for their car than another forum participant? Are there very many people here to whom $2000, plus or minus, in their pockets would represent a life changing event?

I hope not, after all, this is not a Chevy Aveo forum.

I don't think that we are discussing what the original poster was getting at; he wasn't trying to find out who saved $500 and who else saved $2500, and who paid $2K over MSRP on their M2 purchase. I believe his point in starting this thread was to look at the resale market for M2s, and to say that resale prices follow new car prices, and that there was evidence that the new car market was finally reaching an equilibrium so that the used M2 market should start to reflect that, with lower prices reflecting depreciation, as would be expected for most any vehicle.

If this thread degenerates into an erect penis length comparison, then I think this starts to resemble a thread you might find on a Subaru Impreza board.

[CantComplain]

Originally Posted by mtoosexy

I said it earlier in the thread... Back in October I noticed three seperate dealerships in the chicago area had M2's in stock. A total of 5 M2's on hand. 2 have sold, 3 are still sitting. I stopped by last week to check for any updates. Plz don't pay over MSRP, it just sustains the greed of the "stealerships". I have had an agreement in writing since July 2017 for MSRP on any upcoming model in 2018. I am sure the chicago market differs from other markets so take all this with a grain of salt.
cheers!

I get it. And I didn't WANT to pay over MSRP. Technically I didn't, because I paid the dentist for his allocation. The greed was all his, the dealer had an MSRP policy which I appreciate. My local dealer had a DCT at 10k over. And really it boils down to MY valuation of the car. I had a budget and a car in mind and the math worked.

But buying an M2 over a year ago in the Bay Area is markedly different than buying one now in Chicago in the winter. Obviously they'll deal if there are others you can choose from--that's just Econ 101. I think it's still pretty hard to find one here but I'm not following it closely anymore for obvious reasons. If I was still in the market I'd probably spend some time to find a deal and drive it back from another state, but I just checked CL and there's a local 2016 with 6k miles on it that's listed for $55k! Another 2016 with 12k miles for $53k. Sounds like you could make some cash if you wanted to haul some cars a couple thousand miles...

[jmh600cbr]

Originally Posted by Nantucket

It looks like most M2 buyers in Canada are now waiting for the MY19 M2 Competition.I went on some Toronto area BMW websites and there are quite a few new M2’s in stock.Town and Country has nine in stock.Eight of them are MY18 and one of them is a MY17 model.

I don’t think a one day M driver’s program is going sell many of these cars.They will probably need to offer a cash incentive or a low finance rate to start selling these cars,especially this time of year.

My custom ordered my 18 is listed there and it's not even off the ship yet. They auto post the inventory. I believe they gave 1 or 2 you can buy but when I went it was only DCT

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by champignon

Let me ask a loaded question; does anyone really give a shit whether someone else on this forum paid $2000 more for their car than another forum participant? Are there very many people here to whom $2000, plus or minus, in their pockets would represent a life changing event?

I hope not, after all, this is not a Chevy Aveo forum.

I don't think that we are discussing what the original poster was getting at; he wasn't trying to find out who saved $500 and who else saved $2500, and who paid $2K over MSRP on their M2 purchase. I believe his point in starting this thread was to look at the resale market for M2s, and to say that resale prices follow new car prices, and that there was evidence that the new car market was finally reaching an equilibrium so that the used M2 market should start to reflect that, with lower prices reflecting depreciation, as would be expected for most any vehicle.

If this thread degenerates into an erect penis length comparison, then I think this starts to resemble a thread you might find on a Subaru Impreza board.

Thanks for being the voice of reason here.

I made the mistake in the beginning of this discussion, to respond and engage to comments that were OT, but the point really always was the used market all along, and I only got in to the new price discussion, because they naturally (should) affect the used car prices, as "champignon" pointed out beautifully, again!

I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand? Why pay nearly the same for a 1-2 year old car, when there are new ones on various dealers lots? I really think some are still affected in their thinking by what happened in the used 1M market, but the big difference is that once the ~800 1M's where sold in the US, there weren't any available anymore, thus the used prices went higher and stayed above MSRP. Funny how that supply and demand thing works. This is not the case with the M2 as they are still being produced.

And just to be clear. I don't think the bottom will fall out to the point where an used M2 is not still selling for well above an average used car. Nor do I think the that those who paid over MSRP early on are stupid, which some have suggested I said. All I am saying, is that it would be foolish, to pay nearly the same for used car, when I can go buy the same model new. Plain and simple.

[CantComplain]

Originally Posted by norMcal

Thanks for being the voice of reason here.

I made the mistake in the beginning of this discussion, to respond and engage to comments that were OT, but the point really always was the used market all along, and I only got in to the new price discussion, because they naturally (should) affect the used car prices, as "champignon" pointed out beautifully, again!

I'm not sure why that is so hard to understand? Why pay nearly the same for a 1-2 year old car, when there are new ones on various dealers lots? I really think some are still affected in their thinking by what happened in the used 1M market, but the big difference is that once the ~800 1M's where sold in the US, there weren't any available anymore, thus the used prices went higher and stayed above MSRP. Funny how that supply and demand thing works. This is not the case with the M2 as they are still being produced.

And just to be clear. I don't think the bottom will fall out to the point where an used M2 is not still selling for well above an average used car. Nor do I think the that those who paid over MSRP early on are stupid, which some have suggested I said. All I am saying, is that it would be foolish, to pay nearly the same for used car, when I can go buy the same model new. Plain and simple.

I guess the thing that keeps this muddy for me is the availability of new cars at sub-MSRP prices. Are YOU seeing those in the foothills? I don't think anyone else is selling them in the bay area for that, which means there's still at least some demand. Not $10,000 DAM demand, but enough to keep both new and used car prices high.

Haven't seen them in a while, but there used to be posts about car x being available at dealer y for MSRP but I haven't seen those for a while. Is inventory the new normal? Not sure if that's because they're available everywhere or not available anywhere. Seems like we should start a thread for the people looking because yes, no one should pay more than MSRP if they can help it. AutoTrader was a joke when I was looking and I'm not aware of any other realtime nationwide inventory tracker. Paying the premium was a way of getting the car I wanted when I wanted, but I had called dealers in SoCal, Nevada and AZ when I was looking in late 2016 and there. was. nothing. available. I guess I'd like to see the availability limited for as long as possible to prop up values, but I know it's just a matter of time.

[norMcal]

Originally Posted by CantComplain

I guess the thing that keeps this muddy for me is the availability of new cars at sub-MSRP prices. Are YOU seeing those in the foothills? I don't think anyone else is selling them in the bay area for that, which means there's still at least some demand. Not $10,000 DAM demand, but enough to keep both new and used car prices high.

Haven't seen them in a while, but there used to be posts about car x being available at dealer y for MSRP but I haven't seen those for a while. Is inventory the new normal? Not sure if that's because they're available everywhere or not available anywhere. Seems like we should start a thread for the people looking because yes, no one should pay more than MSRP if they can help it. AutoTrader was a joke when I was looking and I'm not aware of any other realtime nationwide inventory tracker. Paying the premium was a way of getting the car I wanted when I wanted, but I had called dealers in SoCal, Nevada and AZ when I was looking in late 2016 and there. was. nothing. available. I guess I'd like to see the availability limited for as long as possible to prop up values, but I know it's just a matter of time.

We don't have any dealer in the foothills, ha! But if you are referring to Roseville BMW (nearest to me), then the answer is no, they are similar to Bay Area dealers. Chico BMW is only marginally further away for me and the GM there would sell me one at MSRP for sure. A friend of mind did so 6-8 months ago. They have had one for sale for a while now, but it is not what I am looking for, nor was I planing on buying new. My thinking is, that if new ones (2018 6mt) are selling for under MSRP, or ~$53k, then a similar equipped used 2016 or 2017, with a 3-5k miles, should sell for under $50k by now. There are quite a few now listed in the very low 50's range, and that might translate in to negotiating a high $40's selling price, but I want to hold out a bit longer. Seems like this tendency has just kind of started the last couple of months and the market is still catching up.

Like I said several times, it makes little sense to pay $51-52k for a used one, when I can find a new one for $53k. If that the used market stays stubborn, then I will just go for a new one eventually, but I kind of like to see how that 2019 MY rumors shake out first, if I do so.
FWIW, I am in no hurry, the car it would replace is only gaining in value, so the longer I wait, the cheaper I get away with it.