[E90convert]

Originally Posted by edycol

The part where you mention UOA and wear is indicative about depth of knowledge. Last time I checked, to get wear results oil companies do not rely on UOA! Especially UOA worth $40.
Many people in private aviation paid with their lives bcs. they tried to convince their mechanic that engines are fine bcs. UOA, when mechanic claimed engine needs overhaul.
UOA is that: Used Oil Analysis. It is not engine analysis! When one wants to know wear, it is time for bunch of tools and engine lift! UOA can only indicate problem. Whether iron wear is at 8ppm or 15 is absolutely irrelevant! It can be attributed to xxxxx factors.

Yes, in my work Blackstone UOA is a no go. I use it mostly as a hobby and checking my own engines for trends. Their are accredited companies our materials lab has partnered with for oil analysis. Oil analysis is mainly used for evaluating trends. Some things are absolutes though to determine when an oil change is needed. Oxidation, contamination, ect.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Never claimed I’m in the oil industry. I’m in automotive power train engineering. I can’t share specifics of information oil companies have provided me.

What is power train engineering? Company? Engines? Type of engines? Purpose of the engines? To edit this, on a second thought , it is important to know exactly what engines we are talking here? Is it drag race engines? Of course one wants super thin oils for max power and in short period of time it will be ok. But, take into consideration that Le Mans teams are using 20W60 for a reason. We are talking here street driven vehicles or track driven vehicles that spend 99% of time on the street.
Still, how did you determine wear based on UOA? I worked with engine developers when we were developing oils and none said: yes, UOA will cut it. You claim a lot that shouldn’t be hard to explain without disclosing info. For example, why HTHS is not as important as ZDDP? Or sufadic acid?

[edycol]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Yes, in my work Blackstone UOA is a no go. I use it mostly as a hobby and checking my own engines for trends. Their are accredited companies our materials lab has partnered with for oil analysis. Oil analysis is mainly used for evaluating trends. Some things are absolutes though to determine when an oil change is needed. Oxidation, contamination, ect.

Therefore you really don’t know how oil performed in reality. Engines don’t self implode bcs. oil is not providing proper protection. They degrade over time.
So, again, how do you know that LL01FE provides same level of protection? Or better, how do we know LL17FE does that as ZDDP is of much lower value? So, it comes down to BMW’s calculation: is averaging(emphasis on average) customer capable racking up 150,000 miles (usual target) ising this oil? What is “average “ customer for BMW?
Don’t forget, BMW tells you also your ZF is filled with lifetime fluid, while ZF itself claims it is not. The question then is: what is “lifetime “ for BMW?

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by edycol

Therefore you really don’t know how oil performed in reality. Engines don’t self implode bcs. oil is not providing proper protection. They degrade over time.
So, again, how do you know that LL01FE provides same level of protection? Or better, how do we know LL17FE does that as ZDDP is of much lower value? So, it comes down to BMW’s calculation: is averaging(emphasis on average) customer capable racking up 150,000 miles (usual target) ising this oil? What is “average “ customer for BMW?
Don’t forget, BMW tells you also your ZF is filled with lifetime fluid, while ZF itself claims it is not. The question then is: what is “lifetime “ for BMW?

The whole lifetime thing is based on a number of assumptions. In quite a twist of irony, it is actually ZF that tells BMW it is lifetime. BMW gives the proprietary duty cycles for that vehicle to ZF, and they run the analysis. If the oil stays filtered and thermal profile doesn’t breakdown the additives, then it’s considered “lifetime”. Now automotive lifetime is different than forever. Maybe 150,000 miles or 10 years on a light vehicle transmission is considered lifetime. Their is statistical reliability and confidence intervals applied to these analysis’.

I am aware that ZF aftermarket recommends changing the fluid and filter at certain mileages and times. I personally plan to change the oil on my 8speed at 90k miles per their recommendation. Note that aftermarket and OEM engineering are different departments in most companies and have different perspectives and requirements (or lack of).

[edycol]

Originally Posted by E90convert

The whole lifetime thing is based on a number of assumptions. In quite a twist of irony, it is actually ZF that tells BMW it is lifetime. BMW gives the proprietary duty cycles for that vehicle to ZF, and they run the analysis. If the oil stays filtered and thermal profile doesn’t breakdown the additives, then it’s considered “lifetime”. Now automotive lifetime is different than forever. Maybe 150,000 miles or 10 years on a light vehicle transmission is considered lifetime. Their is statistical reliability and confidence intervals applied to these analysis’.

I am aware that ZF aftermarket recommends changing the fluid and filter at certain mileages and times. I personally plan to change the oil on my 8speed at 90k miles per their recommendation. Note that aftermarket and OEM engineering are different departments in most companies and have different perspectives and requirements (or lack of).

No, ZF specifically states in their brochures that flyid is not lifetime. You can easily find their brochures online.
So, exactly, the question is “what is lifetime?” It is arbitrary decision mostly driven by people in bean counter department. Same goes with API. API now wants to change HTHS test from 250c to 150c bcs. thinner oils, mostly ILSAC GF-7 (coming in 2028) in 0W8 grade cannot sustain that test. Therefore, they will change HTHS test and claim that hypothetically oil has HTHS of 1.6cp, but what they won’t tell you is that test will be done at 150c and not 250c.
So, why changing test that determines HTHS if additives are the most important factor in preventing wear?

[///MPhatic]

Originally Posted by E90convert

I’ve watched people go WOT straight out of the parking lot on cold winter days at work with N55/S55/S58/B58 and other BMW engines. It’s not ideal and might cause a little more wear. But your engine isn’t gonna fail.

I'm not going to argue with you, I'll only say that you can't speculate with any reasonable accuracy about engine failure/longevity of any and every car due to running the car hard before the oil is up to temp. And secondly, for those of us that might want to KEEP the car, it's good practice, and prudent, just like watching for the oil filter gasket leak.

[E90convert]

Originally Posted by edycol

No, ZF specifically states in their brochures that flyid is not lifetime. You can easily find their brochures online.
So, exactly, the question is “what is lifetime?” It is arbitrary decision mostly driven by people in bean counter department. Same goes with API. API now wants to change HTHS test from 250c to 150c bcs. thinner oils, mostly ILSAC GF-7 (coming in 2028) in 0W8 grade cannot sustain that test. Therefore, they will change HTHS test and claim that hypothetically oil has HTHS of 1.6cp, but what they won’t tell you is that test will be done at 150c and not 250c.
So, why changing test that determines HTHS if additives are the most important factor in preventing wear?

Again being vague, this is just some knowledge I've gained over the years on how ZF works with OEMs to determine if an oil is long-term or "lifetime". I'm interested in you sharing a non-aftermarket ZF recommendation to change the oil on a transmission where the OEM has stated it is a long-term fill. https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemed...e-ml-11-en.pdf Page 6 is the best I could find. Notice the caveats "ZF 5-, 6-, 8- and 9-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed semi-synthetic ATF oils. However, due to the many factors influencing the service life of transmissions in individual operation, ZF recommends an oil change after 150,000 km for its transmissions. In operating conditions with high temperatures and loads, or with unknown vehicle use in the past, it can make sense to change the transmission oil at shorter intervals." They are very careful not to overstep the OEM recommendations.

Lifetime is usually a requirement given by the Product Planning department. It is the result of collecting information from sales, finance, engineering, historical data, etc. For a non-safety related system (brake lines, fuel lines)... 150,000 miles or 10 years with 90% reliability and 90% confidence (R90C90) is typical for passenger car powertrain systems. This is not really a "bean counter" thing. You have to design to some requirements, and infinite life, as most enthusiasts would like, is not acceptable.

Regarding HTHS - isn't that viscosity measured at 150C? I think the NOACK volatility is 250C. Changing HTHS is for fuel economy. I agree as thin as possible and think as necessary. Going much thinner is not a big difference in efficiency, but when you expand to the scale of millions of vehicles it is a big impact. Lighter oils also reduce startup wear and thermal losses. Powertrain manufacturers will have to rely on additive formulations, mechanical design, and manufacturing techniques to compensate for the thinner oils.

[edycol]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Again being vague, this is just some knowledge I've gained over the years on how ZF works with OEMs to determine if an oil is long-term or "lifetime". I'm interested in you sharing a non-aftermarket ZF recommendation to change the oil on a transmission where the OEM has stated it is a long-term fill. https://aftermarket.zf.com/remotemed...e-ml-11-en.pdf Page 6 is the best I could find. Notice the caveats "ZF 5-, 6-, 8- and 9-speed as well as the ZF 4HP20 automatic transmissions are filled maintenance-free with specially developed semi-synthetic ATF oils. However, due to the many factors influencing the service life of transmissions in individual operation, ZF recommends an oil change after 150,000 km for its transmissions. In operating conditions with high temperatures and loads, or with unknown vehicle use in the past, it can make sense to change the transmission oil at shorter intervals." They are very careful not to overstep the OEM recommendations.

Lifetime is usually a requirement given by the Product Planning department. It is the result of collecting information from sales, finance, engineering, historical data, etc. For a non-safety related system (brake lines, fuel lines)... 150,000 miles or 10 years with 90% reliability and 90% confidence (R90C90) is typical for passenger car powertrain systems. This is not really a "bean counter" thing. You have to design to some requirements, and infinite life, as most enthusiasts would like, is not acceptable.

Regarding HTHS - isn't that viscosity measured at 150C? I [...]

Sorry, yes, I made mistake. HTHS is 150c and Noack is 250c. Yes, the Noack test is the one that is being altered as 0W8 cannot pass 250c.
As I mentioned earlier, CAFE requirement is pushing lower HTHS. However, this is BIG however, engine manufacturers are not pushing below HTHS 3.5cP wherever regulations allow that or emissions are determined in different way. So, why would BMW or Toyota go thicker oils even in markets that have ULSG? As you mentioned, it is calculation. But here, on this web site we are not talking average, or lease vehicles.
So far I am not aware of anything that is more effective in protecting engine when it comes to additives than ZDDP. All racing oils have on average higer HTHS in correlation with KV100 and higher ZDDP. But, you claim that “additives “ are more important, yet you are talking oils with lower ZDDP (TPT 0W30 has ZDDP around 900ppm) and in case if LL17FE ZDDP is below 800, sometime in 650-700ppm. Compare that to Castrol Edge 0W30 LL01 that has HTHS of 3.58cP and ZDDP 1050-1100ppm. So, I am really trying to figure put secret sauce ghat TPT has, because if you are talking ZDDP, than we are talking inferior oil in every aspect to anything LL01 you can buy on the shelf in Wal Mart.

[LLB-M2]

Have AK Motion display as a replacement of one air slot in the middle.
Temps in comfort mode:
Water and oil around 105-110 degree C while cruising
Temps ins Sport/Sport + :
Water drops down to 80-90 degree C
Oil is around 90degree C

M2 LCI

[F87source]

Originally Posted by LLB-M2

Have AK Motion display as a replacement of one air slot in the middle.
Temps in comfort mode:
Water and oil around 105-110 degree C while cruising
Temps ins Sport/Sport + :
Water drops down to 80-90 degree C
Oil is around 90degree C

M2 LCI

Incase anyone is interested, here are the coolant and oil temperature targets based on driving mode and ambient temperature (because ambient temps affect how the car opens its thermostat - I first noticed this when washing my car on a cold day that it wouldn't target cooler coolant temps even in sport+ mode). I also have load factor reduction targets based on temps too:





This a screen shot of the important tables from my stock tuned 2017 n55 m2 (there are a couple of tables not shown because they are not too relevant) using proTUNING Freaks Bootmod3 table editor (side note is this such an extremely nice editor - with a really nice search bar option making searching 5000+ tables really easy, I literally could rant for an hour about how good this table editor is vs. something like tuner pro).

[E90convert]

Really cool tables. Thanks for sharing so the way I read this is that torque reduction doesn’t occur unless oil temps cross 138C?

Are there other tables you can share for intake air temperature, catalyst temperature, and transmission or differential temps?

[F87source]

Originally Posted by E90convert

Really cool tables. Thanks for sharing so the way I read this is that torque reduction doesn’t occur unless oil temps cross 138C?

Are there other tables you can share for intake air temperature, catalyst temperature, and transmission or differential temps?

I believe it was 132C, but according to the tables it is 138C. I'll have to check the other tables that I didn't post, because I believe I missed some as I only wanted to show coolant temp target vs. ambient temps.

Yes there are tables for iat and egt, there should be dct temps too but I don't believe in have them since my m2 is a 6mt. There should be diff tables too but I haven't looked.


If I have time I will post pictures, but I'm currently on a work trip right now, so time is limited.

[Nicolas841]

Originally Posted by r33ce89

Hi,
New to the forum and just picked up an M2 LCI.
Found the oil temperature gauge and it really struggles to get to temperature. Whether it be the oil itself struggling to get to temperature or the sensor is dodgy I don't know?
Can anyone shed any light as I can only find threads for oil getting too hot!!!

Have found in sport/sport + in particular it keeps the temp right down at the bottom of the gauge and in comfort it moves very slowly towards the centre... but it's never got there or even close!



Please help!

Hi. Did you ever find a resolution for this? My 2018 LCI has started not getting up to temp and I’m not sure whether it’s a faulty sensor, thermostat, or the ambient temp. Usually runs at 95+ in comfort after around 20 mins of normal driving. Thanks in advance