[Spa2k]

Originally Posted by m34m

Very true for BMW which keeps demonstrating how it's lost its way but doubtful for Porsche.

Originally Posted by ashburyn54

That's what I'm curious about. Hopefully they follow porsche in that regard. I wish BMW would downsize and focus. Seems too late for that I guess

BMW generates about 3.5 times the annual revenue of Porsche. Which do you think BMW cares about more in its audience: a few thousand hard-core enthusiasts, or zillions of Millennials who are snapping up all those cheap 320i leases? And guess what: Sports cars in any flavor are not the biggest sellers at Porsche. Will the big P spend the next few years further diversifying its lineup to the point where purists puke? Will we soon be complaining about how Porsche turned its back on enthusiasts by peppering the world with Cayennes?

I think the M2 in all its iterations will only be around until the all-new FWD 2-series arrives, and then the M2 will be gone forever - except in the memories of those of us who really just wanted a contemporary version of the 2002 in the first place.

[akkando]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

BMW generates about 3.5 times the annual revenue of Porsche. Which do you think BMW cares about more in its audience: a few thousand hard-core enthusiasts, or zillions of Millennials who are snapping up all those cheap 320i leases? And guess what: Sports cars in any flavor are not the biggest sellers at Porsche. Will the big P spend the next few years further diversifying its lineup to the point where purists puke? Will we soon be complaining about how Porsche turned its back on enthusiasts by peppering the world with Cayennes?

I think the M2 in all its iterations will only be around until the all-new FWD 2-series arrives, and then the M2 will be gone forever - except in the memories of those of us who really just wanted a contemporary version of the 2002 in the first place.

I think they do a version like the upcoming M5 that is AWD but has a mode that sends 100% power to rear wheels, but maybe it won't be called an M2, maybe it's some other series but I think they will have a coup smaller than the M4 with that tech at some point.

[m34m]

What I think is what I wrote earlier in my post about value proposition. Predictably some still don't get it. Porsche may have smaller sales as one would expect of a smaller company but they are far more profitable per unit. Why? Because Porsche doesn't just have customers they have a cult following willing to pay a premium. How very short sighted it is of some of you to constantly repeat what a "small" market there is for performance cars and specifically manual ones. It is that "small" market that creates passion for the brand and those people become brand ambassadors. In effect marketing for free with an authenticity and credibility that the brand itself could never achieve. Not to mention members of that "small" market buy other vehicles in the lineup because of this passion. For example I own two M cars but four BMW's total. My wife drives her X3 and I wouldn't have it any other way. I am associated with the BMW brand by everyone that knows me I'm the "BMW guy". I've influenced directly and indirectly countless others to move to the brand. "That guy knows cars and he has four BMW's they must be good". The same holds true for Porsche my buddy doesn't own a GT3 only, he has a Carrera cabrio and his wife is in a Cayenne.

It's ridiculous and frankly very stupid of people to marginalize hard core enthusiasts of any brand and call them a shrinking dying group that isn't "profitable" for the brand. What an insulting inaccurate and laughable joke that is. And how foolish would any company be; not to mention strategically astray, to turn its back on such a crucial target market. BMW does not want to alienate me and others who are likeminded believe me. ARE YOU LISTENING BMW?

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by Spa2k

BMW generates about 3.5 times the annual revenue of Porsche. Which do you think BMW cares about more in its audience: a few thousand hard-core enthusiasts, or zillions of Millennials who are snapping up all those cheap 320i leases? And guess what: Sports cars in any flavor are not the biggest sellers at Porsche. Will the big P spend the next few years further diversifying its lineup to the point where purists puke? Will we soon be complaining about how Porsche turned its back on enthusiasts by peppering the world with Cayennes?

I think the M2 in all its iterations will only be around until the all-new FWD 2-series arrives, and then the M2 will be gone forever - except in the memories of those of us who really just wanted a contemporary version of the 2002 in the first place.

The next generation M2 will be back...

The next generation M3/M4 will incorporate water injection/hybrid and 4WD (option) so the whole engine/drivetrain system will be more complicated.

The next M2 will be an ongoing model and less complicated than the next M3/M4. The 6MT is likely to survive.

[DoggieHowser]

After the 7 minute mark, the reviewer talks about pricing..

the manual is ALREADY more expensive in some countries

Not because of BMW - but because of emissions laws.

[johnnydad]

Originally Posted by DoggieHowser

After the 7 minute mark, the reviewer talks about pricing..

the manual is ALREADY more expensive in some countries

Not because of BMW - but because of emissions laws.

I rather like having paid $10K less for this manual after the NCO of the last two BMWs. I suppose we have to thank our government's disdain for the climate for that. You'd think, however, there'd be more incentives to buy i3s given that would boost our coal usage....

[Karmic Man]

Originally Posted by johnnydad

I rather like having paid $10K less for this manual after the NCO of the last two BMWs. I suppose we have to thank our government's disdain for the climate for that. You'd think, however, there'd be more incentives to buy i3s given that would boost our coal usage....

Lol...probably they can't afford to have lots of power substation overload from the simultaneous EV recharge demand...especially during summer when air con use is common

[rkmjr]

After my first car car in college, a 1963 Chevrolet Corvair (3MT), I had a 67' Chevelle (Auto). In 1974 when I graduated from college I purchased a 4MT new Mercury Capri. EVERY car I have purchased for myself has been a MT since (4 or 5 cars). I have four children who all prefer MT. Since my 95' Eclipse GSX 5MT, I have had AWD or X-drive as well. My current car is a 11' 335xi 6MT M-Pkg.. Obviously I perfer MT and now AWD. I received my allocation for an M2 and this will be the first time since 1995 I would purchase a car for myself without AWD. I considered an M235 and M240, but they were not available with X-drive AND MT. That was a deal breaker for me. I will be purchasing the M2 (without x-drive) which was not an easy consideration for me! But it is an M Car!! Since I still have my 95' GSX, I subconsciously reasoned with myself, I have decided to get the M2. If it did not have the MT though, it would have been a deal breaker. I have listened to many of the "enthusiast" take about x-drive ruining the "fun factor" with the x-drive on M cars, but to me, the Auto and DCT also reduces the fun factor. I do not track my cars, but I do enjoy driving! I enjoy driving and to me the MT is a big part of that experience! I have to tell you that a MT availability to me WAS/IS a deal breaker. Just as I have had my GSX for 20+ years, I guess through necessity, I may have my M2 that long as well (i hope, I'm now 65). I believe many of the younger people who like to drive are really missing that aspect because they haven't really learned to use/drive a manual for that "fun factor". OMO

[stren]

Originally Posted by rkmillerjr

I have listened to many of the "enthusiast" take about x-drive ruining the "fun factor" with the x-drive on M cars, but to me, the Auto and DCT also reduces the fun factor.

+1 I enjoy plenty of FWD cars too as long as they have a manual - vw gti in particular stands out. Everyone has their own "breaking point" I suppose about what ruins the enthusiast nature of a car. Someone else mentioned that to them it was the steering. For me I want a car to be fun, and the strongest correlator to that for me is the manual transmission. With technological advances there are now plenty of fast nice high quality cars out there, but there are few remaining fun ones. I'm willing to pay a premium to bmw because the M2 with 6mt remains fun (IMO) in the way that very few other cars are anymore. If BMW get rid of the 6MT then the fun factor drops and why wouldn't I either buy either a used fun car, a fun car from another brand, or if there are no fun options left then I would buy something cheaper and/or more reliable (and probably electric because I'd rather not keep funding oil rich countries with terrible governments).

I remember recently when BMW were saying how good suv sales were compared to the 3 series and framing it as if US consumers want SUVs (which ok they do in general). But that was always the case and BMW still percentage wise sold more sedans previously. The current 3 series is big, bloated and bland, so if there is no sporty fun advantage to the sedan, then why not be practical and get an SUV.

Edit - just saw this though BMW have since disputed it as "hypothetical":

http://www.motortrend.com/news/bmw-2...option-in-u-s/

[secretanchitman]

A huge reason of why I’m with BMW is because they offer a great car with a manual transmission. If they stop offering it, I will just go to another manufacturer for my next vehicle. Clearly there is some demand for it, with the Honda Civic Si/Type-R, Focus RS, Porsche, Corvette, Camaro, Challenger, 370z, Golf GTI, MX-5, WRX STI, etc…

That being said, I’m fairly sure the next gen (G) 2/3/4 series will have 6MT as an option, but unfortunately I doubt that the gen after that (H?) will retain manual transmissions though anything is possible.

[Artemis]

Originally Posted by rich8566

The 40% manual take rate for the M2 is higher than the BMW product managers predicted

In the CAR+ interview with BMW M about the M2 and M4 GTS (December 2015) the interviewer mentioned that manuals were expected to represent ± 40% of the M2 sales (source: here):

You'll be giving engine orders through either a six-speed manual, or, unlike the 1M, an optional dual-clutch gearbox; the latter likely to take 60% of sales.

In an interview with Digital Trends (January 2017) BMW M CEO Frank Van Meel disclosed that manuals represent ± 20% of the M2 sales, which he considers to be "a lot" (source: here):

Q: Do you think BMW M will continue to offer cars with manual transmissions ? How long term do you think that will remain an option ?
A: Well, there are two ways of looking at manual transmissions. One is the engineering standpoint, which says it doesn’t really make sense. Even though it is lighter, it is slower, and the automated gearboxes have a better fuel consumption. So from an engineering standpoint, it does not make real sense. On the other hand, there’s this emotional thing. We still have a relevant amount of people that are wanting to drive a manual, especially on M2, M3, M4, especially in the U.S., but also worldwide. On the M2 we have a worldwide take rate for manual transmissions of about 20 percent, which is a lot. As long as the demand is there, we will stick to the manual gearboxes. We see strong shifts in the demand for manual gearboxes. In the M3 and M4, it went down from generation to generation to where it is right now, between 15 and 20 percent. It used to be over 50. So it’s going down, but now it’s stable. In the M5 and M6 it went down to almost zero, so we had to take the manual out because there was no demand whatsoever. But the answer is that as long as there’s a strong demand for manual gearboxes, we will try and have them available in our cars.

Repeating what I commented in the past: having followed this M2 section right from the early stage, I got the impression that the vast majority of M2 cars spec'ed by BMW dealers are M-DCT (to be distinguished from M2 cars spec'ed by customers). Prior to the official delivery date (April 16, 2016), many dealers ordered so-called "HEA cars" ("Handler-Erst-Ausstattung" = first edition for dealers = dealer demo cars), which fairly quickly ended up in customers' hands, who took what was available. IIRC a lot of forum members who got a HEA M2 and who had not been involved in the ordering process, drive an M-DCT.

IMHO, though it may sound like a paradox, it's more accurate to say that M-DCT 'supply' is strong, rather than that 6MT 'demand' is poor. Most dealers spec'ing M-DCT, is a catalyst for the self-fulfilling prophecy that 'demand for manuals has decreased'. Would be interesting to know the take-rate for manuals of customer-spec'ed M2 cars. I believe it to be higher than the one of dealer-spec'ed M2 cars, leveling the global figure of all sales to ± 20%. But I am biased, as, back in October 2015, I spec'ed the manual gearbox for my M2 (even if BMW or my dealer would have offered the M-DCT option for free).

The fact that the BMW 1M (2011), Porsche Cayman GT4 (2015) and Porsche 911R (2016) were manual-only, didn't hurt sales of any of those cars. Also that characteristic got those cars extra accolades amongst car enthusiasts (including virtually all car journalists). And Porsche is smart by offering the manual gearbox of its 911R for its brandnew GT3 as a 'free of charge option': indeed, for its GT3 Porsche charges PDK-money for the manual gearbox (same price). Back in 2014 the Porsche Cayman GTS take rate was 5% 6MT and 95% PDK. Approximately a year later: *BOOM*: Porsche presents the Cayman GT4 featuring the manual gearbox of the Cayman GTS: take rate 100% 6MT and 0% PDK, including the "we listened to our customers !" tag-line.

Personally I wouldn't mind BMW offering M2 variants M-DCT stock, with the manual gearbox as 'free of charge option' (thus charging M-DCT-money for the manual gearbox), if that would preserve the possibility of getting a manual gearbox.

For sure, Audi, Mercedes and other BMW competitors would welcome the news that M2 variants will be M-DCT only. But IMHO BMW M is smart enough not to let that happen. The manual gearbox: not only for all the automotive fun and aficionados accolades, but also as a unique selling point when compared to several BMW competitors.

Brief: there are good reasons for BMW to release an M2 variant with manual gearbox (too).

Expectations for the new 911 GT3 6MT:

"It also gave chance to revisit discussion of the manual option with Andreas Preuninger. I start, cheekily, by reminding him that at the launch of the previous GT3 the PDK-only decision was pitched as a big improvement, largely on the basis of its faster lap times. "Well it is still faster on track," Preuninger says, "but lap times aren't everything, are they?" Preuninger stresses his ambition has always been to offer transmission choice - "like whether you take the ceramic brakes" - but limited development resources restricted what was possible. But he admits the PDK-only GT3 displeased some traditional buyers, with the huge popularity of the manual-only Cayman GT4 - and an increase in engineering resources - making the case. This was initially used in the 911 R, but the plan was always to spread the costs by offering it in the GT3 as well. Preuninger says he doesn't know how many people will opt for the manual - a zero-cost option tick in most territories - but reckons it could be as high as a third of production. "If it's less than 20 per cent then I'm in trouble," he admits."
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-...l-review/36190